Many British seem to hate anything European, but the Americans seem to love taking advantage of the European arguments. A German called Werner Von Braun who invented the V-2 rockets, went to work as the head of Nasa after W.W.II, so that Americans could take all the glory. Hitler never wanted war with Britain. In his book he wrote about how much he would love to have Britain as his main ally, or not touch anything British if he could have land in Russia through Poland. He also made the point that he would never really want an alliance with Russia. A man once told me that Hitler wrote that he didn't want war with Britain. Of course from my history lessons at school, I called him a liar, because everybody knows that Hitler hated the British. Out of curiosity, I bought Hitler's book called Mein Kampf and I was so shocked. I couldn't believe how much Hitler loved the British, and he didn't lie about invading Russia, because he wrote that he would never really want an alliance with Russia. After reading that book, it made me realise how much we have been brainwashed as a nation. I'm not saying that I don't think that Hitler was wrong, or that he wasn't evil, but it made me realise how dumbed down we really are. Instead of us being proud of being strong for going against something wrong, we just sit back and accept it when Americans say that we should be grateful to them for going against Hitler. It's them who should be grateful to us, because if we had done what Hitler had wanted, so we didn't have to send ships full of gold to the USA for old destroyers, or lend lease for weapons, so that we would have been better off and not broke after the war, the USA would have been worse off because they couldn't have used all the European technology and weapons.

The USA should be grateful for us going against Hitler, and not doing what he wanted, or not accepting the peace plan from Hess, and not releasing the documents about Hess to the public to keep us further brainwashed and dumb. Most books about the world economy admit that the USA gains from European arguments, but us now stupid British seem to love the USA taking advantage of us. We just love it when the Americans always go on about saving our buts all the time, because Conservative politicians hate doing anything with Europe, and want to turn us into a colony of the USA just because they hate putting money into public services, and want to turn our once great nation into a bunch of losers by bringing up silly arguments about weights and measures and making it look as if it didn't originate from Europe.

Guess what. The pound originates from Europe.

Pound= Old English pund, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch pond and german Pfund, from Latin (libra) pondo, denoting a Roman 'pound weight' of 12 ounces.

I imagine Hitler only wanted Britain as an ally because they were the strongest nation in Western Europe. With the Brits on his side nobody could have stopped him, not even the Americans.

The Inch-pound system did originate in Europe, yes. But the version used today is distinctly Anglo-American.

Well, this is a measurement based website, so I will keep my comments brief regarding Britain as a slave to the USA. Well, what can I say about it? If Hitler really loved Britain so much, then why did he order his bombers to fly night after night over it, and bomb it back to George III's era? If Hitler was so madly in love with Britain, he sure had a funny way of displaying it. Mind you, it was the British who wanted help from FDR, who was eager to give it, because afterall, war is the best medicine for an ailing economy. Had I been Roosevelt, with the knowledge of how his decesion to help then Not so Great Britain, I would have been perfectly content to not lift a finger in defense. Remember, our men landed on Normandy too, in fact, I seem to recall that General Dwight Eisenhower had a large role in designing the invasion, so I think its a little unfair to us when you say we don't deserve a little recognition. I apoligize to most of the readers of this site who are not as misguided as suzanne seems to be, but I get tired of these blatently wrong statements. Oh yeah, about the pound. Like so many other "continental" things, the English may not have invented it, but they simply perfected it as no one else could.

Folks, you can safely ignore Suzanne, she's just an anti-british anti-american liberal who's been posting a on the metric martyrs discussion site, maybe you'd care to go there and ridicule her posts on that site.

While your at it check the running battle I've been having with someone called "Steve Davis" - he really is one of the most ignorant posters I've read - luckily his ignorance leaves me laughing rather than fuming!!!

Go do your bit at.....

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/118303

and see the crap that some brit/yank haters have been posting along with loads of hysterical pro-metric enforcement stuff

Steve, I'll be sure to do that, thanks for the update. Its always more fun when your opponent discredits themselves...lol

>>Folks, you can safely ignore Suzanne, she's just an anti-british anti-american liberal who's been posting a on the metric martyrs discussion site, maybe you'd care to go there and ridicule her posts on that site.<<

You're just being nasty because I don't agree with your point of view about metric weights. So much for freedom.

I simply posted the same message on that board as this board, because I got the link from the previous board. How can I be an anti-British anti-American liberal? I think that if I had the conservative view of turning us into a colony of the USA, it would make me more of a liberal, because that country is about as multicultural and liberal as you can get. If you think that turning us into a colony of the USA is going to keep our culture, then you're obviously living in dream land, because our TVs are bombarded with multicultural messages from the USA. Even British teenage boys dress up like African American rap stars. If you want to fall for conservative propaganda, just because the conservatives love much immigration for the cheaper labour, then try and gain votes by acting racist so idiots think they really care about our culture, rather than just caring about themselves, so they can keep the class system, and mistreat British people they think are below them, then you really are blind.

I don't dislike Americans. I just find it strange how people can think that becoming a virtual colony of the USA will keep our culture, when the USA only has about 12% people of British origin, and seems to encourage culture from all over the world.

>>If Hitler really loved Britain so much, then why did he order his bombers to fly night after night over it, and bomb it back to George III's era? <<

Erm..I think you will find that we declared war on him, and bombed him first.

On a point of fact, Nazi Germany bombed Britain first.

>>On a point of fact, Nazi Germany bombed Britain first.<<

LOL LOL very funny.

Did you go to the school of political correctness? We didn't get bombed until ages after we first declared war on Germany.

If I'm so anti-British just because I don't want Britain to be a colony of the USA, why would I go to all the trouble of making a web site to promote British culture, and advertise some of our greatest achievements such as the Concorde (that we invented with France), and have links about people such as James Chadwick, who went to work in Germany to further some of his discoveries and to improve on research of other Europeans

My web page: http://hometown.aol.com/szlwson/myhomepage/index.html

I also have some nice pictures of the BMW mini that is built at Oxford, that was designed by a joint BMW and Rover design team who improved on the famous but old dated model, and made it into one of the best cars around. The Rover factory at Oxford was a falling down ageing mess until the Germans spent some money on it and improved conditions for staff there. I used to live near it.

I think that to be forward and modern thinking, rather than using propaganda about weights and measures to promote anti-European feeling is going to make a better future for us.

It's typical of conservatives to not want to have anything to do with Europe, then sit and complain about everything because they weren't involved in the first place. I suppose it must mean there's something in it for them, but not for the rest of us.

The website referred to above contains a number of links that may be useful or interesting to those studying the recent Court verdict: for instance, the Bill of Rights 1689 and Magna Carta.

For the record, BWMA is not anti-European and does not believe metric should be outlawed. We campaign for the right to use British measurements in Britain.

>>For the record, BWMA is not anti-European and does not believe metric should be outlawed. We campaign for the right to use British measurements in Britain.<<

You have the right to your own opinion, but when I started an Open University course in science, I had to get to used to the metric system, because it's a lot easier to work out measurements with that system. It made things more complicated, because I had to forget the Imperial measurements, but I was so glad when I got used to the new system, because it is so much more straight forward.

I kind of like the way we still want to use ancient eccentric measurements like stones and feet (that they don't even use in the USA). I think we have a nice balance, because we can have the choice in shops to see both weights. As long as you don't only have imperial. The official who makes sure the weights are correct uses metric. Even if it makes life more difficult to use imperial, then have to get used to metric when we study science, we still seem to not mind that burden.

When we had to change to 100 pence in the pound, and made life easier, I think that people could still get used to the more straight forward system of metric, but I don't mind if we can see both measurements in the shops. I don't see why the shop keepers can't just get new scales to show both weights.

In response to your comment about not being ant-European. Maybe you aren't, but I have the feeling that anti-European political parties will use this issue to promote propaganda against the EU.

Aren't you glad that we changed from the Fahrenheit temperature system to the Celsius? It's so much easier to work out temperature if you know that water freezing point is 0 and boiling is 100, rather than the Fahrenheit system of 32 for the boiling point, and 212 for boiling.

They still use Fahrenheit in the USA, and I don't feel any less British now we use Celsius.

First of all, GB is far from being a U.S. colony. It happens that the U.S. and U.K. have similar goals, which is why the British are always willing to lend us a hand.

Second, the U.S. may not have many people of British origin, but our culture--yes we do have our own culture, is largely British with the traditions of others added to it.

Third, the metric system is easier in science, but in everyday life it sucks. There are no practically sized units in the metric sytem, everything is either too big or too small. The size and scale of units is more important than conversion factors.

Fourth, Fahrenheit is a lot better than Celsius. A temperture scale should be related to human perception of hot and cold, NOT the temperture of water. That's what Fahrenheit does. At 0F anybody with a brain cell crawls inside and wishes it were spring, and at 100F we buy an ice-cream cone, sit in the shade, and wish it would cool off. The Celsius equivalent of this would be -18 to 35, approximately.

Anybody here who wants a crack with the above-mentioned Steve Davis should drop by metricsucks.com. He'll be there either under his own name or as "Stevo."

Suzanne, you are posting to sites called "BWMA" and "metric martyrs". These sites are supportive of Imperial measures. A lot of the posters to these sites will either be anti-metric or, like myself, want to see the continuation of both systems based on what is appropriate. This means you will be challenged insofar as your views are contrary to this. Do not be scared of this, enjoy it. Play devils advocate, get into it. I am not bullying you, I am simply taking the **** out of you misguided (IMHO) views! Anything nasty would be removed by the webmasters of the appropriate sites so you will be protected against any REALLY nasty stuff.

I am stunned that your sort always see us as being a 51st state! It's the old excuse wheeled out by those who, lets say, are a bit too zealous of the EU machine. Please see the post by "InchesRule" for the REAL low down on US/UK relations and how close we really are (ever heard of the "special relationship"?). Interestingly the "51st state excuse fraternity" to which you belong tend to be the flag burning liberal Brit/Yank haters- which was my original point!

As far as your comments about the new mini - DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH!!! I am a true mini fan and all I need ask you to do is go to WHSmith and pick up two publications regarding the Mini, have a look at the features inside and realise what the reall mini enthusiasts prefer. Don't get me wrong - the new German (BMW) mini is a good car, it's just not a *real* mini (heck its the size of an Audi A3!!!).

Unfortunately the German card brand "BMW" bought Rover (which was a well performing company) trashed it, and then gave it back minus LandRover and Mini!!! Great!

Thanks to some good sense and innovative ideas the Rover brand is back! With the new Z rated MG models this British company might just have saved itself from the BMW mismanagement - WE (that's the British, Suze) HAVE A (MASS PRODUCED) CAR INDUSTRY AGAIN!

So cut the "colony" excuse, get real, have an argument and justify your beliefs in enforcement!!!

As far as fahrenheit is concerned, in hotter climes we tend to use degrees F in the UK.

You'll notice that the majority of brochures in the travel agents quote F for summer and C for winter (along with hours of sunshine).

This is because (IMHO) zero sounds like a good "cold" human temperature and 100 sounds like a good "hot" human temperature.

Unfortunately with degrees C zero is great for "feeling" cold but 38 really does not have the impact that 100 has (bit of rounding there!)

You'll notice that when the TV weather report comes on in summer they will have degree C on the map ('coz it's politically correct!) but the forecaster will say something like "and it will be 27 degrees celsius - *THAT'S INTO THE 80's IN FAHRENHEIT!*" The bold there is to emulate how the weather forecaster announces it.

Unfortunately, to the metricist, we "simply don't use fahrenheit" in the UK. Luckily "normal" folk know what they see and hear!

But then you can prove anything with facts

>>I am stunned that your sort always see us as being a 51st state! It's the old excuse wheeled out by those who, lets say, are a bit too zealous of the EU machine. Please see the post by "InchesRule" for the REAL low down on US/UK relations and how close we really are (ever heard of the "special relationship"?). Interestingly the "51st state excuse fraternity" to which you belong tend to be the flag burning liberal Brit/Yank haters- which was my original point!<<

I love the way you accuse me of being a flag burner, just because I want to be part of the EU, and not a colony of the USA. If we aren't going to be the 51st state, why do the Conservatives want to join the North American trading group? Do you know how ridiculous it would look if a European country joins the American trading group?

Most Americans think that Europe is all one country anyway. I speak to a lot of Americans on AOL, and during the Kosovo war, they were all saying that by the USA being involved, they were saving our butts. I want our country to have a bit of pride back, and the only way we can do that is by being part of a strong Europe.

I don't dislike the USA. I just don't want to be part of their trading group. I love the way I'm accused of being a USA flag burner, but people in the UKIP party are always spreading propaganda about the EU, and that seems to be acceptable, even though we are a European country.

At least I have an open mind, and don't just listen to the propaganda that the UKIP party feeds me, even if it means it's worse, just because they are waving a British flag. Ever hear of a wolf in sheep's clothing? We were pretty much free of the EU when Thatcher was in power, because she kept on with her psychotic ramblings, but it didn't stop the Conservatives mistreating the British people. At least we had the European court of human rights to go to when things got bad under a Conservative government. The reason they don't want the EU, is so that they can mistreat the British people themselves, by giving us a bad education system, health care etc.

I find it a bit strange that the Conservatives have suddenly become all patriotic, because when they were in power, we were about as multicultural as you can get. The Conservative's ideal seemed to be a Pakistani shopkeeper who worked long hours and paid little Tax. They loved all the immigration for the cheaper labour, and now act all racist to gain votes.

Why do they make people think they care about our culture, when they have even said they want to leave the EU, and join the American trading group and turn us into a colony of the USA, and that's about as multicultural as you can get. If you think I want the future of my country to continue the way of the USA, with British teenagers dressing like American rap stars, and even talking like them, then I'm afraid I'm not that unpatriotic. I's rather be a cultured European.

Britain isn't like the USA. I don't want to have endless immigration to keep the corporations going. The USA thrives on the immigration, and the USA needs the big divides between rich and poor, to keep it as rich as it is. I think of Europe as more of a tribal nation, that has a society where everybody works together. I don't dislike the system of the USA, because it's great there's a country where people from all over the world to go to, so they can be for themselves, and not part of a society, but I'd rather be like Europe and the white commonwealth and keep our culture, than sell us off so a few people can make big bucks.

>>Don't get me wrong - the new German (BMW) mini is a good car, it's just not a *real* mini (heck its the size of an Audi A3!!!).<<

Rover had been failing for years, even while the Conservatives sold it off to Japanese companies. It wasn't until BMW bought the factory, that it didn't look such a blot on the landscape at Oxford, because BMW spent lots of money on the factory so it looked like a modern thriving factory again. There were so many British companies queuing up to buy Rover weren't there? I think they just about sold it in the last few minutes before it was to be closed down. The Mini was a once proud British car, but it was also extremely dated. Now it's a modern car that has won awards, and it's an example of what Europe can achieve when it works together, rather than selling us off to the USA, as the Conservatives seem to want to, as they had done with our film industry, and Land Rover.

What about the MG car? That was once a great British car, until Rover bought the MG many years ago, and started making MG metros, MG family saloons and worse. You can't blame Europe for that.

Yes, it's good Rover has started making good cars again. It's just a shame they couldn't do it many years ago when they were independent.

Suzzane - I'm afraid that you've been convinced by the EU propaganda machine! You cannot seperate "Europe" from "EU" you see them as the same thing. It also appears that you have never visitted the US from your misguided notions. Lets face it, you see no relevence in the UK flag - your flag is the blue 12 star flag - agreed? My 'flag burning' quote should be seen as metaphorical, think about it!
You say "why do the Conservatives want to join the North American trading group" - well I think anyone in their right mind would like to be members of as many trading groups as possible with the aim od aiding Britain's influence (Britain, not EU). Ever heard of the commonwealth?

Most Americans DO NOT see Europe as one country! Where do you think they see the queen in all this? You know the head of state that the Americans know all about? Again you have never been to America! They have TV programmes literally devoted to how the royals are, what they're doing, Prince Wills etc etc! Did you know that mst Americans see the UK as the "mother country"? After Sept 11th most American people looked to us for inspiration! Get real for heavens sake!

Oh, and please stop this "I don't dislike the USA" thing! Your aspirations for the EU is to just be a huge new Eastern bloc to counter America's influence - that's a negative move!

You say "I just don't want to be part of their trading group" - where do you think much of our trade goes?

Pleas stop talking about UKIP and Conservatives! Unless you're 10 yrs old or something please stop using ignorance - we're not talking about political parties here! Ok ok we "hear" you, you'd vote Labour - alright we know, no need to go on about how "bad" the other parties are!!!! (P.S. Guess what? Labour has a fair share of Eurosceptics you know? Everything but the front bench more or less!!!)

You appear to be totally ignorant of the Thatcher ere too, and what it was and why it was necessary. Your knowledge of the ECHR is appalling too (uh? whats ECHR?)

I'm pretty uncomfortable with your comments about Pakistani shopkeepers, multiculturalism and a "white" commonwealth so I'm not going to go there (surprised to hear you going along on a BNP viewpoint, though) Wasn't it you that said something about bombing Germany first? Scary! I think I see what sort of EU that you want!

You say "with British teenagers dressing like American rap stars, and even talking like them" !!!!
May I introduce you to a wonderful drug called "Prozac"? (or maybe valium is more in order!) GROW UP!

If you want to be a cultured European, you'd better choose which one you want to be (unless you're going to have a go at a new hybrid style one) Perhaps you could recognise that you are British? Or English/Scottish/Welsh? Or even Cornish, liverpudlian, scouser etc etc?

Britain is very much like the USA - a shared language, a merged history, an identical economic cycle, an overlapping of measurement system etc etc etc. When it comes to Europe we have either been at war with them or stopping war there!

"Rover had been failing for years, even while the Conservatives sold it off to Japanese companies"
Where on earth did that come from ? You're talking about Honda and Rover sharing ideas aren't you? You fail to mention that Honda pulled out once the germans got involved! They wanted none of it! Rover, along with Vauxhall and Ford have been the main suppliers of fleet cars so get your facts right.

The mini had been around since 1959, they stopped production when the metro came out and then they started making them again due to public outrage! (There are some facts for you so that when you do posts elsewhere you can turn to truths rather than made up crap!) The old mini won the best car of all time award by Top Gear. The new minidoes NOT have the following of the old mini - FACT

Landrovers have BMW engines - why's that then?

Here's your best line "What about the MG car? That was once a great British car, until Rover bought the MG many years ago, and started making MG metros, MG family saloons and worse. You can't blame Europe for that."

How totally anti british!!! Did you see the other cars of the day? Did you see what Citroen, Renault, Seat, Fiat etc etc were turning out? The eighties were a decade of terrible cars from all over Europe! Not just (horrible old) Britain!!! Something to do with state interference - you REALLY have no idea what you're talking about - why did you just pick on Britain?


Please suze, come out with some facts and nbring some truth to the arguement! If Britain is so crap then please give us the reasons, and read about it first (avoid "The Mirror" though, y'hear?)

While we will not restrict in any way the wide-ranging debates that appear on these pages, it would be helpful if weights and measures are referred to at least once in a while - thank you!

Apologies, I agree that my only mention of weights and measures there was my point about "an overlapping of measurement system". I had to counter some of the "facts" that suzanne was talking about, forgive me!

>>Suzzane - I'm afraid that you've been convinced by the EU propaganda machine! You cannot seperate "Europe" from "EU" you see them as the same thing. It also appears that you have never visitted the US from your misguided notions. Lets face it, you see no relevence in the UK flag - your flag is the blue 12 star flag - agreed? <<

You're mad if you think you aren't European. Even the Scottish and Welsh national parties want to be known as separate nations within the EU.

Do you know how stupid England would look if Scotland and Wales were in the EU, but England was part of the American trading group?

I'm a true patriot, and want Britain to be part of a strong EU, rather than being brainwashed into being like the USA, just so the Conservatives can have an American style system where people need lots of money for a good education, and no national health service.

People like you just want to keep us looking stupid, when the world thinks of our prime ministers as hand maidens to the USA, a country that celebrates its independence from us.

In response to:

‘just so the Conservatives can have an American style system where people need lots of money for a good education, and no national health service.’

Excuse me. I come from a poor working family and I got an EXCELLENT education while going to public (‘state’) schools on the ‘wrong’ side of town. I worked hard and earned a scholarship to the University of Florida. I am currently at law school; I took out a loan to finance my legal education, but I didn’t have to… I could work full time over the summer to fund my existence. My point is that ANYONE willing to apply themselves can do anything they want to in the United States (within reason). Please disregard any statements that this ‘Anonymous’ person has made about my country… she is either simply uninformed or a shameless propagandist for the leftist, socialist, movement that is attempting to subvert our republic as they have done with much of ‘free’ Europe. And contrary to what many believe, there is nothing wrong with a private health care system. No one in true need is turned away from our hospitals… the cost is merely reflected in higher costs for hospital patients who actually work for a living and can pay the bill. Most of it is paid for by insurance anyway; unfortunately, insurance costs are rising due mainly to inappropriate lawsuits and partly to the aforementioned uninsured hospital patients. I could elaborate, but it would take a small treatise of several pages to do so and I am not willing to produce one on a message board that is devoted to a different topic entirely.

Back to measurement:

‘Guess what. The pound originates from Europe.’

Guess what; so do the English. The English did not always live on Albion, you know. They came from Frisia and the neighboring regions. In all likelihood, the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes simply brought their traditional measures with them rather then importing them. That is why you would see similarities in the modern Pound, Pond, and Pfund. By the way, I learned about the origins of the English the (allegedly substandard) US schools. I was told by one of my Cambridge instructors that the average state schooled British pupil is unaware that Britain even had a history before 1066. Please correct me if this rumor is exaggerated, I found it a difficult statement to believe.

That Suzanne believes anything she reads off of America Online (What Irony in that name, by the way), then it makes perfect sense that she believes what she says. Suzanne, you have America all wrong, more wrong than you have the capacity to comprehend. America is not trying to undermine the UK. We don't have to, you British are doing a fine job of selling your souls the the EU. The reason England may want to join an American Trade organization is because the benefits of such action will reap quite a nice harvest for British traders, something that they will enjoy, while the EU sits back in jealous rage. I don't have any measurement related comments on this topic, but I had to add my $.02...

To all international readers of these posts please treat Suzzanne/Anonymous posts with a pinch of salt.

Her claims are based on ignorance - you can tell by the loaded statements and numerous lies. I can only suppose that she is a sub-teen and is no more than a playground screamer.

For start - not once did I not say that I was European (proof that she can't seperate "Europe" from "EU" - eg are Norwegians european?)
Secondly I'm Welsh and as such she has taught me som much about myself! (Having said that, the "nationalist" parties you talk about are clearly out of your educational range - having read what you put!!!)
And, pray, do you understand what "United Kingdom" actually means?
I just laughed at your comment that England (which includes London) would look stupid - trully hilarious!

(I also laughed at your "true patriot" lie - very amusing!)

And as far as "being like the USA" is concerned- well I'm happy to live in the 4th largest economy in the world on this little tiny island of ours - and if being like an even bigger economy is bad then roll on the bad times!!!!)

It might help if you stop ranting on about the Conservatives - yes we got your point - you vote labour - fine - you have the right to do so, but please stop rewriting the Conservative manifesto - look at the Labour election pledges instead!

You final comment was ...
"People like you just want to keep us looking stupid, when the world thinks of our prime ministers as hand maidens to the USA, a country that celebrates its independence from us."

The USA helped us reatain our independance after Germany decided to take over Europe in the 40's - why not try thinking about that as "our" independance day?

You really are a very sad person, Suze!


P.S. To our American posters again: Ignore this person's rants, she clearly has no idea of our histories and why the US and UK are the world's strongest international friends, bar none.

1. The US lent money to both sides during WW2, before coming in on the side of the British (who owed slightly more than the Germans). The reason the US waited so long to join the conflict was because it's business leaders (politicians) argued that the trade boom generated by the war was, like the boom from the 1914-1918 war, *good* for America.

2. Steve H. Hey, you sound a real loser.

3.Imperial weights & measures are too complicated for most people to calculate with - maybe this is why sharp traders like them?

4.Metric weights are just the perfect way to put everyday items through the shopping checkout. 1/2 kilo of tomatoes and a few grams of mushrooms please...

5. 1 litre of water weighs 1 kilogram - perfection!!

6. 25 degrees C is about my favourite temperature. Anything above 30 C is too hot. If I want to make ice cubes I know instantly, the water needs to be at or below zero C to freeze. I can never remember the freezing point in degrees of the *F* word.

[3.Imperial weights & measures are too complicated for most people to calculate with - maybe this is why sharp traders like them?]

Then explain how people managed to calculate them easily for the past 4,000 years.

Bob C: Poster Child for the Mindless Metric Supporters

Thanks Bill, couldn't agree with you more.

I'm embarrased that these people ACTUALLY EXIST in the UK!!!

As long as they stay (a flipping noisy) minority then I've no problems with 'em.

In fact they are quite entertaining - especially when they start claiming they are somehow representative of the average UK person.

I'm sure you get them in the US too!

Bill!
Go to the other chat thread (Metric Signs) and look under "Britain is sick"

Can you believe it? As soon as I mention about "having them in the US" (above) someone from the US posts an anti-imperial message there!

Do these people blame the "old folk" in the US? They do here (even though survey after survey shows a preference for imperial in the sub 30 yr olds)

Q: [3.Imperial weights & measures are too complicated for most people to calculate with - maybe this is why sharp traders like them?]

Then explain how people managed to calculate them easily for the past 4,000 years.

A: 1. Clearly people didn't calculate them easily. This is why a few smart alecs own everything, whilest the huddled masses have barely managed to drag themselves out of ignorance and poverty.

2. It's getting harder to calculate them. 4000 years ago, half the population were not on Prozac and Valium.

Do the strange folk on this board advocate the reintroduction of the 'old' money? I remember shillings. If you want shillings to return, and you think you are in the majority of opinion... then, er, yes... everything is tickety boo.

SteveH writes:
[Do these people blame the "old folk" in the US? They do here (even though survey after survey shows a preference for imperial in the sub 30 yr olds)]

Yep. It's always the old folks with these people. Despite the fact that they young folks generally do NOt use metric either.

________________________
Bob C writes:

[A: 1. Clearly people didn't calculate them easily. This is why a few smart alecs own everything, whilest the huddled masses have barely managed to drag themselves out of ignorance and poverty.

2. It's getting harder to calculate them. 4000 years ago, half the population were not on Prozac and Valium.

Do the strange folk on this board advocate the reintroduction of the 'old' money? I remember shillings. If you want shillings to return, and you think you are in the majority of opinion... then, er, yes... everything is tickety boo.]

1. You sound like a communist.
2. It's not getting harder, people are getting lazier.
3. Currency is a separate issue entirely.

Inchesrule writes:
1. You sound like a communist.
2. It's not getting harder, people are getting lazier.
3. Currency is a separate issue entirely.

Bob C replies:
1. You sound like Captain Mainwaring.
2. See a Doctor.
3. 1 - 0

SteveH said: "Do these people blame the "old folk" in the US? They do here (even though survey after survey shows a preference for imperial in the sub 30 yr olds)"

As far as I know, the answer to that is no. Bill might have a different experience, as Inchesrule has had. Younger people in the US (at least the ones I'm around) are comfortable using the metric system and most of my friends can do approximate conversions in their heads (as can I) but they all think in customary units. My one friend who prefers metric also still thinks in customary units. So no, it's not just old folks; it is generally known that young people also prefer customary units. While we are comfortable around metric, most of us just don't like it very much (keep in mind that Gainesville is an island of leftism in a region of Florida known for conservatism… that might have some effect on my experience; I doubt that many who live anywhere else in Alachua or Marion counties have much knowledge at all of the metric system).

You may have noticed that leftists like to use the 'old= bad' formula (among others) when their point cannot be made through use of logic and reason. In the US, for example, leftist politicians (such as AlGore) see the Constitution as an obstacle to their social engineering schemes. They cannot convince a majority of citizens that it is a good idea to change the Constitution through reason alone so they seek to create a false premise on which to base their argument. The formula is as follows: All old is bad. All new is good. All old should be changed to new. The Constitution is old and therefore is bad and should be changed into something new. The fallacy is that old is NOT bad by definition. In a specific example, during the (many) French revolutions, the mob decided that all old was bad and they swept everything away in favor of something new. England took a different approach to its revolution. The English decided (sensibly) that much that was old actually worked and should be kept since the people preferred many of the traditional practices. The old system just needed to be tweaked, so that's what the English did… they brought in some new while keeping much of what was old and worked. Look at England's history since its revolution and the history of France since its revolution(s). Who do you really think made the right choice? (for more on this, see Edmund Burke's 'Reflections on the Revolution in France.' In my opinion, Burke is one of the more brilliant political commentators in history and reading his work gave me a new appreciation for the greatness of the political tradition in Britain and by extension the US).

Many of my metric loving friends say "why hate metric? half your measures are foreign anyway"- that is missing the point and they are misunderstanding us completely: The fact that our measures have a history is a *GOOD* neigh *GREAT* thing-
I love that about our system- it is universal and age old at it's core, but that is not the issue. British people don't hate europe, but dislike elements of it, including the arbitrary UN EUROPEAN metric system!

"Aren't you glad that we changed from the Fahrenheit temperature system to the Celsius? It's so much easier to work out temperature if you know that water freezing point is 0 and boiling is 100, rather than the Fahrenheit system of 32 for the boiling point, and 212 for boiling."

It changed to celsius, I believe, as it no longer boils at 100, but at 99.995 degrees. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Fahrenheit has 180 degrees between boiling and freezing- makes sense to me.

>Fahrenheit has 180 degrees between boiling and
>freezing- makes sense to me

Please elaborate.

Ralf

How is the boiling point and freezing point in fahrenheit confusing, is the point. The scale is better suited to people than celsius.

Spot on!

Also, don't forget when mentioning "boiling point" it's only applying to pure H2O.

In fact, Steve, it relates to pure water not pure H2O. Water contains many other molecular species, for example about 1 part in 10**7 of H3O+ and OH- ions at room temperature and 7 parts in 10**7 at boiling point. Then there's the D2O (deuterium oxide, as in "heavy water") and the H2(O-18) etcetera. Not all pure water on Earth (let alone elsewhere in the universe) has precisely the same isotopic composition, which is another complication. And even then we're only talking about the boiling point under an atmospheric pressure of exactly 101325N/m/m.

The SI system defines temperature in terms of the Kelvin (NOT degree Kelvin), such that the triple point of pure water is 273.16K. The Celsius (no longer centrigrade) system is then redefined such that 0 degrees Celsius = 273.15K and 1 Celsius degree = 1 Kelvin. 100 degrees Celsius is no longer anything in particular, though it "happens" to be very close to the boiling point of pure water under 1 atmosphere pressure.

So, the Fahrenheit is independent from air pressure and a specific element ?
What IS the definition of the Fahrenheit ?

Ralf

The Fahrenheit scale is defined by the freezing and boiling points of water under one standard atmosphere being 32°F and 212°F respectively.

From the Dictionary of Units at:
http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/index.html

"The unit was defined by the German physicist Daniel G. Fahrenheit (1686-1736), who also invented the mercury thermometer. Fahrenheit set 0° at the coldest temperature he could conveniently achieve using an ice and salt mixture, and he intended to set 100° at the temperature of the human body. (He was off a little there; normal temperature for humans is between 98 °F and 99 °F.) On this scale, the freezing point of water (at normal sea level atmospheric pressure) turned out to be about 32 °F and the boiling point about 212 °F. Eventually the scale was precisely defined by these two temperatures."

Thanks for those two posts there Paul. Like I have been saying, the "metric" and more properly, SI are not "Precise" in the sense of simple 100 based measured- the points in kelvin and celcius, as you said- and the metric system isn't even scientific- it is a sort of dumbed down version for use by ordinary people, but, unfortunately for the metricators, it is not very practical for normal everyday uses, and as such is redundant. Let us return to (in Europe, as well as in Britain) practical, traditional, and well evolved and matured measures for a mature society- the pound, ounce and gallon- English spoken here, or , er, something.

I certainly prefer Fahrenheit for human body temperature and hot weather - does anyone really grasp how hot 43°C is (the temperature of India's latest heat-wave) without first converting it to Fahrenheit (over 109°F!) ?. However, I find centigrade easier for cold weather and hot water. For scientific purposes I mostly use the Kelvin scale.

I fully intend to continue using all three.

"I fully intend to continue using all three."

That is certainly the best attitude to have.

I think you'll find most people (of all ages) tend to use centigrade in th winter and fahrenheit in the summer. It's due (IMHO) to the human liking zero as a low point and 100 as a high point.

This we'll say things like:

Winter:
"Jeesh, it's about zero out there!"

Summer:
"It's going to be mid-eighties today"

What I do not like is some of the more "trendy" weatherforecasters who don't say the "F" equivelent when summer comes along, ie.

Good forecaster: "It will be 28 Celsius, that *82 Fahrenheit*" - with vocal emphasis on the second amount.

Bad forecaster: "It will be *28 Celsius*" - with overemphasis to make up for the lack of info!

Luckily the good ones outnumber the bad.

P.S. All travel brochures either have temps in F or (F and C) - but usually just F.

{I think you'll find most people (of all ages) tend to use centigrade in th winter and fahrenheit in the summer. It's due (IMHO) to the human liking zero as a low point and 100 as a high point.}

I prefer Fahrenheit any time of the year. Mostly because I have to deal with tempertures below the freezing point of water.

First time I noticed the expression
IMHO which must mean "in my humble opinion".
I think human temperature sense is real fine
and that you can tell a one percent change in
absolute temperature while you might not be
able to detect a one percent change in speed
or force or mass.
So IMHO the smaller degrees of F scale make
for a better language. One degree F is meaningful
but with the C scale you are too likely to have
to say a fraction of a degree.

Did you ever hear a Fahrenheit-user say "it went
down to ten below freezing last night" when he or
she meant down to 22 F? there is some flexibility
but in general the smaller degree-size seems to help.

There are 10ths, thous, 16ths, and 10th of thous as well as lines (12ths).

A solution to the 'we have no millimetre in Imperial' "problem":

we have 12 lines (l. or lg.) in an inch, with each one being made up of 4 quarter lines (ql. or Qg). Or, the other way round, we have halves and quarters of an inch, but each quarter is made up of 12 lines. I have experimented with a ruler and a piece of paper and each of these lines are clearly visible, in fact, it is probably the smallest size you can go without having to resort to a magnifying glass, while still retaining a clear distinction between the points.

Anyway, why hasn't anyone posted anything recently? Is it because of the Jubilee?

Hi Bryan,
I miss this board a lot when it is not active.
I enjoy reading the action even when I'm not
currently posting or conversing here myself.

No idea why there was this pause. One possibility
is that it was the meter-boys' move. It was their
"turn" in a certain sense. Indeed the thought had
crossed my mind and I was waiting. I wanted to say
"go ahead its your move". But I didn't say anything
because it seemed polite just to wait.

I like that you are recognizing the *experimental*
aspect of good units design.

This is potentially an exciting academic field of
research. One can design experiments to test the ease
of use and efficiency of systems of quantification.

The idea of having gradations at or near the borderline
of perception is very interesting. One degree of
temp is for me like that. I sort of know if a room is
at 70 or 71. Or maybe I don't. But FIVE degrees? No
question!

Now you have made an experiment with 1/48 of an inch
(half a millimeter, I like being bilingual sometimes
and saying things both ways). The most important thing
I think is that you made the experiment.

You have the idea that not all systems are equally
good and it is possible to test experimentally how
good they are. In my world that makes you one of the
good guys, the empiricists, the open-minded, the
undogmatic. Bravo.

Someone in the Cognitive Sciences department of
Univ. Calif. San Diego wrote me today. I am excited
because Cognitive Sciences is a newfangled academic
department including experimental psychology and
information systems and artificial intelligence
research and all that stuff, probably some kinds of
linguistics. They could be interested in units.

She was in particular interested in NATURAL UNITS and
historically how the natural units system had been
discovered (circa 1899) and she was writing for
references to source material.

I want the area of units study and alternatives to
metric to become a hot area. You know how academic
fashions go. Some research areas get hot. It is
a good thing that could happen. Graduate students
do thesis work, post-docs do papers. YUM!!!

Well I better not talk too long.
I am glad you are interested in having footrules with
48ths of an inch marked. It is possible, only half
a millimeter. It is part of ungoverned civil society
: the question is, will they sell? If they sell,
you win. Look in a drafting goods store and see.
I have seen rules for engineer drafting (before
computers) that were incredibly fine. Almost black
with lines.

Talk more later,
L

This whole business of using fractions might seem very appealing at first sight since we (humans) have a pretty good mental concept of simple fractions, say 1/2, 1/3 and 1/4.
Their beauty however stops right at the point when you have more than one measured object interacting with each other.

Example: Half a pound plus one fifth of a pound.
For themselves quite nice, added together you get into the ugly "common denominator" business, in this case you end up with 7/10.
The higher you choose you denominator (for increasing accuracy), the uglier the business.

That's why some smart person aeons ago invented the decimal point, which eliminates the need for different denominators, making it possible to fix the used denominator to the number 10, which is also the base of our numbering system...

... and also the base for the metric prefixes. What beauty....

There were some very smart men at work in our past, making our daily lives easier so that we can spend more time on higher tasks. The metric system is another one of those quite smart inventions, using it means appreciating their work.

Ralf

Yes, we spend our time on higher tasks now, like meditating or devoting our lives to charity, don't we......? well, mowing the lawn and eating at Mcdonalds, anyway.

The appropriate tool and scale for the appropriate task is the key, that is why we have decimal inches and so on.

"That's why some smart person aeons ago ..."

Do we still have the word "priggish" to describe a certain tone? Anyway I was delighted with Ralf's
post. Bryan you sound a