A good place to look for ample evidence of how important our customary measures are for us because they are an integral part of our culture can be found in the field of rock and pop music (all types).

The following is just a brief list I've compiled, so represents those examples only one person has thought of who likes this music, but each person will be familiar with different examples, and could doubtless add to this list enormously. Who knows, maybe if the list gets impressive enough it could be featured in the Yardstick. (just a suggestion).

BAND NAMES: - Thousand Yard Stare, Inch, Sixteen Horsepower, Horsepower, 12 Cubic Feet, Gallon Drunk, 60ft Dolls, Six By Seven, Five Miles Out; Milestones and Butch Baker; Ten Feet; Ten Feet Five.

SONG TITLES: - "I'm Going To Be (500 Miles)" - Proclaimers; "2,000 Miles" - Pretenders: A Thousand Miles" - Vanessa Carlton; "Step on My Old Size Nines" - Stereophonics; "I can See For Miles" - The Who; 78 Stone Wobble" - Gomez; "Walk a Mile in your Shoes"; "Every Ounce of Strength" - Dusty Springfield; Recent single called something like "five mile smile", can't recall the artist's name.

ALBUM TITLES: - "2ozs of Plastic with a hole in the Middle" - Man; "Intergalactic Sonic Sevens" - Ash [This being a collection of their seven-inch singles]; "Lb 4 Lb" is a title of a recent dance music l.p. but I can't recall the artist's name.

LYRICS: - "1,000 Miles an hour" - in the current Space Monkeys vs. Gorrillaz single, and also on the Gorrillaz original; "Mr. Farenheit" - from Queen's "Can't Stop Me Now"; "1,000 Miles per hour" in the new Prodigy single; "Pint of beer and a new tatoo" in Billy Bragg's "Welcome to the New Brunette" and "I will leave an extra pint" in his "Milkman of Human Kindness"; "Feeling two foot tall" in "You've Got To Hide Yuor Love Away by The Beatles; References to Farenheit in "Has it come to This" by The Streets, and also references to eigths (of an ounce) on the L.P.; "only inches away from me" - on "Me! I Disconnect From You" by Tubeway Army (with Gary Numan);
I can't be quite sure but I think there are refereences to miles in David Bowie's "Space Oddessey"; References to miles, and M.P.H. in Monty Python's song about the Earth going round the Sun; References to shifting "a few tons of this earthy delight" in "Navigator" by the Pogues, and many other Pogues references to customary measurements eg. pints in "Dark Streets of London"; Various such measures in "Big John"; "Thirty miles or more" in "Driving away from Home" by It's Immaterial; Reference to miles in a Ted Hawkins song on one of his L.P.s but I can't recall the name of the track and haven't time to dig it out now; "Your brother wants to kill me and he's six feet ten" - in Can't Stand Losing You bu the Police; "Only takes one inch to trigger" in "Oliver's Army" by Elvis Costello and the Attractions;

MISCELLANEOUS: - Eminem's 8 Mile Style, and a glance at the credits for "The Slim Shady L.P." will reveal a number of different people with nicknames based on their heights in feet and inches; Jools Holland deserves a mention - I can not think of a Squeeze song or a Jools song with our measures in it, but he is a Patron of B.W.M.A. and strong supporter of our cause; The picture on one of Morrissey's L.P.s shows him wearing a tasteful gold pendant bearing the words "1 oz"; The track "STand Up For The Foot" by Chris Jagger from his 1993 L.P. "Atcha", [Lyrics reproduced in full in Vivian Linacre's excellent book "A Guide to Customary Weights and Measures".

NURSERY: -
"Half a pound of Tuppenny Rice", Inchworm.

AND FINALLY, RECORDS: - I could have cheated a bit in the above list, by including the many songs subtitled "12" mix, 7" Radio Edit", etc., (but I'd be at this for weeks then!), but Records themselves deserve a mention. Vinyl is not only alive and well, but increasing sales. It is always referred to as 7", 10", or 12". Even C.D.s for that matter are 5".

CONCLUSION: -
No matter how much the metric bores may try, they really don't stand a hope of gaining true genuine currency in our cultural life. Their continual bombardment of us with metric propaganda and metric measures will never mean we actually choose to use these measures when not compelled to. Our culture and the way we speak and think, and our music are almost entirely free from its insidious influence. The aims at cultural destruction of the metricators can be seen for what they are: - beneath contempt. This list shows metric doesn't even get a mention in our popular music. It is ignored and resisted, and sometimes ridiculed by the people as a whole, who they want to force to use it. It will never form a part of our actual culture as it is lived and breathed by people of all ages. One day, when the misguided policy of attempted cultural destruction is recognized for what it was, we will again be free from beurocratic pettiness trying to mould every aspect of our lives. I'll drink a pint to that and listen to some Pogues songs about that for good measure!.

pop singersongwriters are some of our language's
poets (there are some non-pops that do good stuff
with language as well but you are focussing on the music scene).
Jerk metric cheerleader rahrahs come on metricsucks
board and say "GO....METRIC!!!!" just like that with
all the caps and shrieks. I say "go English" and
poetry helps keeps a language alive and SI micromeganano is lousy for poetry. It took us 2000 years to smooth down "milia passuum" to "mile" and now we should throw it away?

"It took us 2000 years to smooth down "milia passuum" to "mile" and now we should throw it away?"

Truly wonderful! This gets to the heart of the issue. Amazing and so concise! Really, I am not joking here; we talk of our units evolving etc, but do not sum it up so beautifully and powerfully (and concisely). Glad to see you on our side (whether you are a regular here or not)

Today I was thinking of great Russian novels such
as Brothers K and how every other page you
seem to find or someone galloping some number of *versts* and bringing a *pood* of something
in from the country estate. When I read those
novels I never was quite sure how many kilograms
a "pood" is or how many kilometers a "verst"
is but they sound fantastic and I'm sure a pood
is a great deal of grain or cheese or whatever.

Do you imagine there are Russians who regret the
loss of such strong one-syllable words and their
replacement by 3 and 4 syllable rather sterile
undistinguished words--words that all basically
sound the same?

BTW anonymous I thank you for the kind words. My post may in
fact not be that well thought out. What I appreciate instead is John-C doing all that research on use of traditional units language in popular song.

English language has been really lucky
to retain so much richness and
flexibility and to escape the purification
and sterilization that sometimes happens
to languages, or seems to anyhow.

Academie Francaise and all.

Leonard,

are you afraid to put this under your name ?
Your way of writing is quite tell-tale...

you have a signature style and
tone of voice too, but maybe
what is said is more interesting
than the byline (or could be).

anything to say on the issue
of language?

Well, you can't separate one from the other...

Ralf

we seem to be talking about language and style

I think pop music has some really strongly expressed
lyrics that I consider poetry.

Please give me a sample (the actual words of the
song) of some song lyrics you think are good.

doesn't have to do with units. I'm interested
to know the kind of lyrics different people like.

Oops! The person beneath "Too modest to give name"- anonymous- was me. I didn't mean to add to the confusion- sorry. You see, I quite often find it difficult to post on this site, as when I press "submit" it previews instead, and no matter what I do I can't post. To get around this, I usually just change the title slightly, but after half a dozen times of pressing "back" and readjusting my message, I often forget to put my name in.

A few more...
SONG TITLE: - "One Inch Rock" by T.Rex.

LYRICS: - "Six feet tall" in "Fingerprint File by the Rollong Stones (On the "It's Only Rock'n'Roll" L.P.);
"Billy saw a copper and he hit him in the knee, And he took him down from six foot to five foot three, And he hit him fair and square in the do-re mi, Thatcopper won't be having any family" from "Billys Bones by the Pogues; "And the people they did say for many miles away, It was those outlaws Frank and Jesse James" from "Jesse James" by the Pogues, "I have acres of land I have men at command" from "I'm a man you don't meet every day (Traditional, excellently performed by The Pogues. There are many more examples by the Pogues.

I'd like to add the name of the rock group "Nine Inch Nails".

Yes, I knew there were some I had meant to include above but forgot when I actually typed the thing in!. There must be many more, so let's have some more examples....

Howard Jones - "The Twelve Inch Album" featuring a picture of him standing alongside a massive ruler marked entirely in (12) "inches" but the height of him.

Wasn't there a sixties/seventies song titled: '98.4'?

Line in folk song ('Why Don't You Love Me Like You Used To Do?): "We don't get nearer, closer than a country mile"

Song: 'Inchworm'

Sixties Song: 'I Can See for Miles' (The Who?)

Al Jolson: "I'd walk a million miles, for one of your smiles, my Maa-mee"

[Apologies if any of these have already been mentioned]

T Bennett

Lo, here is someone who knows twentieth
century prole-music AND read Njal Saga out loud to
his kids. Someone therefore of originality and cultural
breadth. did you say you were a politician too?
or just a trouble maker like me.

"If you hear the train I'm on
You will know that I am gone.
You can hear the whistle blow a hundred miles..."

Our norm for oral temp is 98.6. Are Brits only 98.4?

I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests
I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans
I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard,
And it's a hard rain gonna fall.


One too many mornings (and a thousand miles behind)

From the crossroads of my doorstep
my eyes they start to fade
as I turn my head back to the room
where my love and I have laid,
and I gaze back to the street
the sidewalks and the sign,
and I'm one too many mornings
and a thousand miles behind.

It's a restless hungry feeling
that don't mean no one no good
when everything I'm saying
you can say just as good.
You're right from your side
I'm right from mine.
We're both just too many mornings
and a thousand miles behind.

Now the senator came down here
showing ev'ryone his gun,
handing out free tickets
to the wedding of his son.
And me I nearly got busted
and wouldn't it be my luck
to get caught without a ticket
and be discovered beneath a truck.
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
to be stuck inside of Mobile
with the Memphis blues again.

Now the preacher looked so baffled
when I asked him why he dressed
with twenty pounds of headlines
stapled to his chest...

MOTORPSYCHO NIGHTMARE

...
Well, he threw a Reader's Digest
at my head and I did run,
I did a somersault
as I seen him get his gun
And crashed through the window
at a hundred miles an hour
....
....
Rita said, "Come back!"
as he started to load
The sun was coming up
and I was running down the road.

...

John Henry said to his shaker:
Shaker, why don't you sing?
I'm throwing 12 pounds from my hips on down,
Listen to the cold steel ring.

John Henry told his shaker:
Shaker you better pray,
For, if I miss this six-foot steel
Tomorrow be your burying day.

John Henry told his captain:
Next time you go to town
Just bring me back a ten-pound maul
For to beat your steam-driver down.

John Henry told his old lady:
Will you fix my supper soon?
Got ninety miles of track I've got to line
Got to line it by the light of the moon.

Well every Monday morning
When the birds begin to sing
You can hear those hammers a mile or more,
You can hear John Henry's hammer ring.

"I give an inch, and you take a mile"

Lyric from a spice girl song that I cannot remember the name of.

Joke:

"Knock Knock"
"Who's there?"
"Spice Girls"
"Spice Girls who?"

---well that's showbiz for ya!

SONG TITLE: - "One Hundred Miles" - Ted Hawkins.
LYRICS: - "Give them an inch and they'll take a yard, Give them a yard and they'll take a mile" - Nobody can stop them now - Bob Marley and the Wailers.

Metric Sucks, Imperial Rocks!

IMHO what you say is correct from a language standpoint
as the examples of popular and folk lyrics
(in the absence of metric terms used with
comparable force) tend to confirm

probably many of us have heard John Henry
sententiously sung too
often and I apologize for that but it
is a clear example of the lyric use of
physical quantity. pound. foot. mile.
the song's verses transcribed here
are from the book "Best Loved American Folk Songs"
by John A. Lomax and Alan Lomax.

the other lyrics I copied in are recognizably
Bob Dylan.

a funny thing which metric boosters have said on this board is "oh well, accept metric in practice and you can still use traditional units in proverbs and colorful expressions" (that is, you can still make poetic use of inch even if you buy board in centimeters). the idea of authentic language seems alien
to such people. what if the folk singer, even though the track was measured in miles, had consciously used an archaic word like "leagues", then the JH ballad
would have been a different song. he used a 12 pound
hammer and he called it a 12 pound hammer. best not to separate the physical world (of work, pleasure, nature) from language.

metric words sound rather detached and clinical, like anatomical words for body parts. tend to be multisyllabic and to sound like each other instead of being distinctive. unit pressure is pascal and unit force is newton but it wouldn't matter if it were the other way around. centimeter sounds like kilometer, and inch sounds different from mile. this is all pretty obvious. John-C seems angry because they want to gut his lyric poetry, steal his words and fob off cheap substitutes on him. Makes sense.

Leonard - thanks for that, yes you're right but it is also the fact that I and the many people who think like we do on this issue are well and truly fed up with these petty beurocrats who never give up on trying to force us how we should think and speak. If we want to choose customary measures to buy things in as well as to use in songs, then why shouldn't we?. It hurts no-one, does it? Their future is a future bleak and desolate, the fruits only of cultural destruction. No Future!.

Something that I find rather funny is that because we do not prefix the units or have so many "base" unit words, we are apparently thus rendered unable to remeber how many pints there are in a gallon, or what exactly an ounce is. That has got to be one of the worst metric arguements: "I know exactly what whatevr is, because there are seven basic units and 8 prefixes (or whatever the number is".

Leonard wrote: "metric words sound rather detached and clinical, like anatomical words for body parts. tend to be multisyllabic and to sound like each other instead of being distinctive"

That's because you're not used to it (yet). As you know I grew up in Belgium and I can assure you that everybody on the continent thinks km, kg and litres are very, very natural. Incidentally, even in France, where everybody is keen on abbreviating words, no one has a problem with KILOmetres, KILOgrammes, CENTImetres and CENTIlitres. They just don't abbreviate those words.

By the way, there are many Belgian, Dutch and French songs were the words "metre" or "kilometre" occur.

That may be true, but there are some punctuation marks that shouldn't be used even though they have no relation to the metric system. Why else wouldn't you do it?

Bryan,

doesn't mile stand for "one thousand paces" ?
Seems like a prefix to me (and even a metric one !)...

Besides, the base units of imperial are meter, kilogram and second since the imperial system is defined through the metric system.

Ralf

You say:
[By the way, there are many Belgian, Dutch and French songs were the words "metre" or "kilometre" occur.]

Educate me. Please transcribe some passages from these lyrics, especially if in French.

I am eager to have French lyrics or German if you know any, to compare with the popular song and folk song examples in English that we have accumulated in this discussion.

Those French and German verses or song lyrics that I know which speak of any kind of physical quantity (length volume weight etc) AVOID the use of units by using qualitative ideas ("grand") or uses traditional measures now made obsolete ("brasse" = fathom).

It will be very interesting to see how successfully poets and/or song-writers can work metric units into lyrics, especially those that rhyme and have a rhythmic line-pattern as folk song and popular song normally does.

Thank you,

Leonard

Hello Anonymous, are you the same as the
Anonymous who declared a few weeks back that
he would support the metric system if its
name was changed to the Bumblefart System?

If so, then you are, according to your then and own
description, a dangerous madman.

As such, I believe you are capable of producing
rhymed epigrams and satirical couplets employing
metric and Roman units such as may make
a shambles of any discussion you happen
to enter.

If you are some other Anonymous and cannot do this then remain quiet and let
us be unreasonable without your help.

"16 Tons" [Note: not 16 Tonnes] - fifties hit song

"Walk a mile in your shoes" - line in song

"He's five foot two, and he's six feet four; he fights with missiles and with spears" - opening line of seminal pacifist protest song of the sixties, sung by Donavan, 'Universal Soldier'

If rewritten in metric this would be: 'He's one metre fifty seven point five, and he's one metre ninety three'

Tony Bennett

Ralf you are not an idiot so stop trying to pretend to be one! :-

"the base units of imperial are meter, kilogram and second since the imperial system is defined through the metric system."

Cinq = Five (translation of french/english) - which is defined through which?

7+3 = 4+6 - both equal but which one is based on the other?

A=B - is it "A" or "B" that is superior?

Ok, now stop letting your side down!

Nope, Steve,

a "definition" provides a clear dependance of one object to the other, that's why in mathematics it is written as "A := B" and not just "A = B".

An example:
"A 'bunch' is defined as 5 apples" (bunch := 5*apples)

When I say then "an apple is yellow,long and slightly bent", the "bunch" will follow that change and be 5 yellow, slightly bent objects.
When you have 6 apples though and say "This is a bunch" it plainly violates the definition.

Thus, saying "1 yard := 0.9144 meters" is NOT the same as saying "1 meter := 1.0936 yards".

Ralf
P.S.: I can recall a posting at some point saying "Am I the only one annoyed that the imperial system is defined through the metric system ? Imperial should stand on its own feet". So aparently I'm not the only one with that notion of a "definition"

That wasn't me that posted that I believe that it is wrong to think that way.

Look up yard and metre in an English dictionary for a surprise. It's based one upon the other depending on which one you are looking up.

However, I believe it is a goodish last ditch effort to bring this up by a losing metriphile, along with "decimalisation"

Anonymous wrote: "Look up yard and metre in an English dictionary for a surprise. It's based one upon the other depending on which one you are looking up."

Yeah? Is that so? Let's put it to the test !

I looked up "yard" and "metre" in Merriam-Webster Online (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary). Read what they have written:

YARD = any of various units of measure as a unit of length equal in the U.S. to 0.9144 meter

METRE/METER = the base unit of length in the International System of Units that is equal to the distance traveled by light in a vacuum in 1/299,792,458 second or to about 39.37 inches

Conclusion: The metre has a scientific definition and the yard is defined through the metre. The length in inches is only given as an indication.

Strange that you should not look up the Cambridge or Oxford dictionary - ie official UK dictionaries.

Look up "colour" in that disctionary, will you?

Duuuuhh!

Sorry to appear rude, Conrad, but would you be ok with telling us your age?

You are about the ninth Anonymous who has
showed up in recent memory so how about
signing yourself Anonymous9.

We have had some really good Anonymouses here
and it is frustrating not to be able to
address them individually and reply to their
excellent sallies and witty observations on
a case by case basis.

Or Anonymice.

So I say to all you Anonymouses: personally
I prefer to use goofy names but if you must
be 'Mouses then please be 'Mouse1, or 'Mouse2,
or 'Mouse3, the way they do on yahoo when
there is more than one LHiggins and they
sign LHiggins1 and LHiggins2 etc.

The business about definitions is not really to argue about! I urge you posters to return to Rock 'n' Roll!!!
Let us be serious!

By 2010 or so human units will be defined using the atomic clock and natural constants (like c, h-bar, e) and it will not matter what system hitches a ride on what other system's coattails. Relax. Dictionaries are just printed paper and the get revised all the time.
Yard will be yard though scholars puff and huff that it is 91.44 centimeter.

BAND NAME: . 20 Miles, currently on Rough Trade Records.
LYRICS: - ...miles I've roamed, just to make this dock my home - "Sitting on the Dock of the Bay" - by Otis Redding; "I've got 40 acres, you've got fifty-three!" [numbers may be wrong] "Combine Harvester" - by The Wurzels.

I think Tony quotes a good line:

["He's five foot two, and he's six feet four; he fights with missiles and with spears" - opening line of seminal pacifist protest song of the sixties, sung by Donavan, 'Universal Soldier'

If rewritten in metric this would be: 'He's one metre fifty seven point five, and he's one metre ninety three']

thanks for 3 things:
it is a line, not just a songtitle
I feel something when I read it (it is poetry maybe)
it uses UNITS IN AN ESSENTIAL WAY

how are you going to describe two not-very-different
ordinary human heights other than by some unit
or range-convention like "short-to-medium build" for
one and "above-average-height" for other? obviously
the singer has to say things quickly and simply and he is better off with "five-two" and "six-four".

Hey I thought quite a few of Conrad's titles sounded
interesting. English-speakers are the last who should be parochial about others poetry. Got to acknowledge the other guys hits!

Suspect conrad cannot come up with good use of kilogram while in English verse there are a lot of good uses of pound. But grant that French song makes
good use of "metre" PERHAPS 'CAUSE IT'S A SIMPLE WORD
LIKE YARD. well we shall see.

Steveh wrote: "Strange that you should not look up the Cambridge or Oxford dictionary - ie official UK dictionaries."

Don't you think I know? I seldom use online dictionaries and Merriam-Webster was the first one in Google's list.

"Look up "colour" in that disctionary, will you?"

Steveh, do you really think I'm a moron ? Incidentally, it says "chiefly British variant of COLOR".

"Sorry to appear rude, Conrad, but would you be ok with telling us your age?"

26 years old, my dear Steveh !

Hi Conrad, glad you are there.
Please give us some lines from French-language
songs that use units.
Eager to see how they go and how well
francophone popsingers are assimilating metric.
Hoping for response soon,
thanks,

Leonard

"Bryan,

doesn't mile stand for "one thousand paces" ?
Seems like a prefix to me (and even a metric one !)...

Besides, the base units of imperial are meter, kilogram and second since the imperial system is defined through the metric system.

Ralf"

Ralf, are you poking fun again? I don't really understand what you are trying to say here unless you are stupid (which you are not) or perhaps this is more of that lovely German humour.

Bryan,

have you noticed that the quality of your posts deteriorates from day to day ?

Ralf

Oh, and stupid is usually the person who accuses others of being so...

Ralf

I never accused you of being stupid, nor did I imply (I did not mean to in any case)

How are my posts deteriorating?

I really don't get you Ralf, was really what I was trying to say. You are obviously a smart fellow but you come out with the strangest, and dare say I, silliest things ever at times. Are you just fond of making fun or what? I really don't understand it.

it is true Ralf
you are obviously smart but sometimes
say naive things that one doesn't know
what to make of
one says "how could an intelligent fellow
like him possibly think or say something
like that"

correct me if I am wrong, normally one says
that the BASE units in a system are the
small set of core units (typically of time, mass,
and length with or without some other special
purpose ones like charge and temp) IN TERMS OF
WHICH the rest are defined.

so e.g. one version of Imperial might have
second (time), pound (mass), inch (length) as
its base units

another version might have second, pound, foot
as its base units.

HOW THE BASE UNITS ARE DEFINED can be through some other system, usually going back to the Planck units
(like c) the atomic clock or some artifact (like the
Paris kilogram). Ultimately the metric system will be defined using Planck units and the atomic clock. But
the metric base units will still be second, kilogram, meter EVEN THOUGH ANOTHER SYSTEM was invoked to define them.

So when you say that the "base units of Imperial are
the meter and the kilogram" it sounds really strange.

Some people use disingenous remarks as a technique of argument. saying something that is obviously wrong and pretending they think that in order to throw the other off balance. the image that comes to mind is a feint
in football to get the goalie in the wrong place. but
maybe that is too good an image. it doesn't work that well in discussion I think. the innocent mistake "oh I never heard of kilogram-force" (the weight of a kilogram used as a scale of force--all European bathroom scales use it) which Paul Birch found so incredible on your part.

Bryan's irritation is understandable and things would go better if you avoided seeming disingenuousness.

"Don't you think I know? I seldom use online dictionaries and Merriam-Webster was the first one in Google's list."

Eh? What I am saying is - if you look in an "English" (not American) dictionary you will see metre as x.x yards and Yard as x.x metres - not some cr*p about one being "better than the other" (in your view)

"Steveh, do you really think I'm a moron ? Incidentally, it says "chiefly British variant of COLOR"."

Think your a Moron? Don't tempt me! However you appear to be showing yourself up again! Why on earth would an "English" dictionary call "colour" a chiefly british variant ...etc etc? GET UP, GO TO SHOP/LIBRARY, buy/hire one and use it. Stop using the internet to supply you with the wrong answers!

"26 years old, my dear Steveh !"

Then act it! (and what's with the "dear"?)

"What I am saying is - if you look in an "English" (not American) dictionary you will see metre as x.x yards and Yard as x.x metres - not some cr*p about one being "better than the other" (in your view)"

Look what I found in Cambridge Dictionary:

- yard = a unit of measurement equal to three feet or approximately 91.4 centimetres
- metre = a unit of measurement equal to 100 centimetres

So that one puts a more descriptive reference and more effort into the definition of the yard (which STILL does not say it's based upon the metre).

Our Oxford dictionary shows both measures for both systems.

I'm glad your "giving in" though, it *IS* rather pointless saying that one is "better" than the other, I'm sure you'll agree!

It's interesting that they say "approximately 91.4 centimetres".

If they simply add another '4' after the decimal point, they could drop the word "approximately" altogether, and save quite a bit more space.

Ok, to clarify why I said that the base units of imperial are kilogram, meter and second:

1. A "base unit" of a measuring system for me is a unit of a dimension, from which all higher and side-units are derived.
2. As I pointed out, a definition is a unidirectional relationship and not bidirectional.

Ergo: The base units from which the imperial system draws (or "inherits") its accuracy are the metric base units, the kilogram, the meter and the second.

Ralf

And as I and others have repeatedly pointed out: it is EXACTLY as possible to define the yard in terms of fundamental physics and the metre in terms of the yard as the other way round; and that in science every individual scientist (and in liberty every individual person) has EXACTLY the same ineradicable right to define his terms the way HE HIMSELF chooses, not the way some government or international committee purports to decide for him.

Thus, for example, MTW's Gravitation, the bible of relativity theory, does NOT use the SI definitions of the metre or the second as its base for either geometrodynamic or conventional units, but the authors' own preferred definitions of the centimetre and second, which are slightly different.

The imperial system does NOT "inherit" its accuracy from the metric system, but from the same PHYSICAL measurements that underpin the current version of the SI metric system. If SI or metric did not exist at all, the imperial system, and its physical basis, would be unchanged (though if the standard 2.2046226 lb mass in Paris disappeared it might have to be replaced by a standard mass - not necessarily 1 lb - in London, or better, by a more modern definition in terms of fundamental physics, such as has been given here many times already).

More song titles: - 2 songs called "Mile High Club", one by Adam and the Ants and the other by Bowwowwow; "99 in the Shade" by the New Rollers; and Lyrics "Act your age, mama, not your shoe size" in "Kiss" by Prince, and by Tom Jones featuring the Art of Noise. [This wouldn't even make sense with metric shoe sizes!]. I've also seen a Korn design of a tin with ounces on it.

Any more examples?.

"Too emotional am I?
Too emotional am I?
Spirit soaring ten miles high,
I sing loud words that make you cry.

Too emotional are we?
Too emotional are we?
Defying all security,
I mean to keep this fire in me."

"Feed me to the Lions" by Adam and the Ants. (on "Kings of the Wild Frontier" L.P.

Ralf - you are never going to give in to "one is better than the other" thing aren't you?

Imperial and metric and are different. However they can be converted to and from each other. Neither is superior. Unless you make it political then it's up to ones own feeling of superiority!

Actually I suggest you re-read Paul's post, he's put the time and effort in to why you can *only* be wrong (as opposed to possibly incorrect)

I must say I don't like the term "superior" anyway. Superiority is an absolutely subjective term and can't be proven right or wrong.

I'm only trying to make you acknowledge some facts about the imperial system, in this case the bespoken "definition" issue.

I re-read Paul's post on your suggestion, and I agree that it is possible to define metric through imperial, the point is, it wasn't done that way. The fact that there is no "standard pound" but only a "standard kilogram" indicates that already.
Calling it the "standard 2.2046226 lb mass in Paris" is just bizarre, please show me any textual reference that really calls it that way.

Ralf

You just quoted a "textual reference that really calls it that way". I called it that - because that is what it is. The fact that it may also be a standard kilogram does not alter the fact that it is currently a standard 2.2046226 lb. Standards do not have to equal one unit, and many different units can be based on the same standard. In any event imperial was NOT originally defined in terms of metric units, only redefined that way later for legal convenience. We on this forum have given various improved definitions for British units that do not involve metric units at all.

So, even though for your oppressive political ends you wish to pretend that British units have not been defined except through metric units this is completely false.

Hmm, this leads to nothing, obviously, you found your twist you will insist on.
At least I can relax and know that noone but Paul Birch will call the standard kilogram in Paris the "standard 2.2046226 lb in Paris".

Ralf

Facts are not dependent upon the number of people who state them. If, as you insist, the imperial system is currently defined for legal purposes by reference to a metric system in which the 1 kg mass in Paris is a standard, such that 2.2046226 lb is set equal to 1 kg, then it logically follows that that mass must also be a 2.2046226 lb standard.

Returning to the subject of our weights + measures in music again, I understand Russell Crowe has a band called 30 odd Foot of Grunts.

LYRICS: - "If you see a sign at the side of the road, It says fifteen miles to the love shack!" from "Love Shack by the B52s.

SONG TITLES: - "6 Knots" by INXS (B-side).
"Eight Miles High" by Husker Du.

Please add more examples to build up the list, anyone?.
No metric examples thus far. Metric really has no place in our culture, does it?.

John,

Are you keeping a record? It might be fun to lay your song titles and quotes out on a couple of sides of A4 some time and circulate it. And who knows, the revered Vivian Linacre might expand the second edition of his "Guide to Customary Weights and Measures" to include it

Tony Bennett

Tony: - Thanks for thaty, (although we could of course go with some B.W.M.A. Foolscap paper!). If Vivian would be interseted some time then this would be great. Perhaps we ought to leave the list get bigger. It seems, with myself anyway, that I think of new examples day by day, or hear examples on the radio, etc. (as happened with the B52s song). All contributions most welcome!

"....A4..."

Tony, NOOOO!! What are you thinking!?

The song by Space Monkeys vs. Gorillaz is called "Lil Dub Chefin" and has also been released under the title "M1/A1", and features "M1, A1, a thousand miles an hour" quite a number of times in the catchy tune. The new ten-inch of this currently frequents my turntable now.

David Bowie's "Space Oddessey" does contain a line that goes something like "now I've flown one hundren thousand miles". Any David Bowie fans could doubtless correct any errors, but that's roughly right.

"David Bowie's "Space Oddessey" does contain a line that goes something like "now I've flown one hundren thousand miles". Any David Bowie fans could doubtless correct any errors, but that's roughly right."

It's 'Space oddity' actually...

The *actual* words are, 'Though I'm past one hundred thousand miles, I'm feeling very still...'