Dear imperialists,
have you ever realized that absolutely NO ONE living in a (fully) metric country wants to go back to the costumary system of measurement that was used in his/her country in the past?

And have you ever realized that at least 5% of the UK or US population wants to go metric?

This proves that - once people are used to it and everybody around them uses it - they find it the best possible system.

That can be said for a lot of things. Once people are deprived of something valuable, so long as they don't realise it, there is no problem, right...

Hmm, that doesn't really apply for metrication.
Especially during the transition period they will have a one-to-one comparison between "the new hotness" and "old and busted". The fact that they still want to go with metric afterwards scores a point for metric.

Ralf

No, it doesn't. People are stubborn, and like what they know (for the most part). People know metric is superior, so they prefer it. They understand metric, so they prefer it. Simple, really.

That sounds more like an argument *for* metric, really.

Ralf

Note how I said *know* and not *is*. I *know* metric is inferior; they the contrary.

Either way there is a point during the transition in which people "know" and "understand" both systems.
At that point they can say: "We know both systems, but we like the old one better!"
That didn't happen either in Canada or Australia.

Ralf

Um, no. You yourself said that in the beginning there is a comparison and a contrast drawn between the old and crusty and the new and shiny.

Having lived in South Africa during and after the metrication process I echo these sentiments.

I have even heard people say that the only good thing that the Nationalist (Apartheid) Government did in South Africa was to introduce the metric system.

Yes, but then to hear you tell it, most people in Britain favour the metric system. Or was that Ralf. Or Conrad. Or Pip.

Battery chickens tend to be happy with their lives.

And again, that's only true for chicken who have never seen anything else than the battery.

Ralf

They recognise that there is something outside their restrictive "cell"

An imperial freedom!


Lighten up man

I think most of you don't understand what I mean.
Let me clarify myself:

Fact 1: Absolutely NO ONE (=0%) living in a fully metric country wants to go back to the system that was used in his country in the past. Moreover, they think those systems are outdated and illogical.

Fact 2: At least 5% of the UK and US population wants to go metric. This means that at least 5% of the population thinks imperial is rubbish.

If you all say that imperial is superior, why does NOT A SINGLE inhabitant of a metricated country want to go back to the older system that was used in his country?

Maybe they instinctively feel that a system based on the 10 fingers of your hand is more logical ?

What tosh. I think we got your 'points' first time around, actually. Ask me something like: Do I wish to go back to XXX that happened in the past. Well, most of the time, no, BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT I HAVE NOW AND APPRECIAT IT FULLY. They may 'know' Imperial, but it is unlikely that they know how to use it properly (and are of course not "familiar" with it in the same way that I am)

In my case I was in my early 20's when South Africa went metric. I was taught Imperial units at school and then had a short introduction to the metric system as part of science.

University education was mainly in metric units with the Physics Department using the MKS system and the Applied Maths Department the CGS system. (There are considerable differences between the two when discussing Maxwell's equations).

When I started work at the de Beers Diamond Research Laboritory, South Africa still used the Imperial System but within a year or two changed over to the metric system. I was therefore fully conversant with systems when in 1975 I did a post-grad course at UMIST. It was here that I announced to my supervisor that my disssertation would be in SI units. (He had been dreading the day, but I was the one who broke the news to him). I therefore believe that I am in a position to compare both sets of units.

And I am not...? I use both all of the time. That is, as a man once said, 'that'.

Anyone wonder why fully metric Oz still commonly use imperial measures?

Ok, the shops and roads use metric but can any of the metritwits here fathom out why old and young people in Oz STILL use imperial when it suits them?

Well?

Aussies and Enzedders -young AND OLD- almost always use metric measurements.
There are only two cases where many people (roughly estimated about half of the population) still use imperial:
1. when they give their height
2. when they give their weight

When measuring distances, the weight of bananas or volumes of water they always use metric.

When was the last time you went there? How many Oz-types do you know? How many do you work with?
Why do you just make things up when things become uncomfortable?

You said

"Aussies and Enzedders -young AND OLD- almost always use metric measurements."

This is absolute b****x!


You then said
"There are only two cases where many people (roughly estimated about half of the population) still use imperial:
1. when they give their height
2. when they give their weight"

WRONG AGAIN! (how many times have we heard that about conrad?)

They give their heights in ft/in and they give their weight in KG (some say it in pounds, not that many though).

Notice there that I identifed the truth that they measure their weight in metric? Notice that just because I'm pro-imperial I don't simply "make up" things when they are uncomforatbly against my own instinct? Notice that you mentioned "estimated" like you ACTUALLY KNEW this from facts?

"When measuring distances, the weight of bananas or volumes of water they always use metric."

No - again wrong! They use a mixture. It is not uncommon for an ozzie to mention long distances in miles and short ones in yards! They announce the weight of new born babies (you can't get younger than that) in Lb/Oz - AND NOT FOR THEIR GRANDPARENTS TO UNDESTAND OTHERWISE WHY DON'T THEY TELL THE PARENTS IN KG!!!!

Try not to make things up as you go along - you've done this before, Conrad, and you've been sussed before.

If you don't know things for sure - just don't say a thing - its less embarrassing!

Let me try and help you out and help you embarrass yourself less - perhaps you were talking about Germany and not Australia, yes? Perhaps it was "Austria" and you got the spelling wrong?

You'll be saying the Irish are metric next!

Or maybe american roads are in Kilograms?

Don't be so DAFT!

(sorry about the rant folks, its not like me - but I simply HATE lies and liars)

(...and I'm stuck here at work on a Friday night!)

"When was the last time you went there?"
Never been there.

"How many Oz-types do you know?"
6. 5 Enzedders and 1 Aussie.

"Why do you just make things up when things become uncomfortable?"
I don't. That's how THEY say they measure things.

"Aussies and Enzedders -young AND OLD- almost always use metric measurements."
That's what THEY say.

"There are only two cases where many people (roughly estimated about half of the population) still use imperial:
1. when they give their height
2. when they give their weight"
That's what THEY say.

"When measuring distances, the weight of bananas or volumes of water they always use metric."
That's what THEY say.

"Let me help you out and help you embarrass yourself less - perhaps you were talking about Germany and not Australia, yes? Perhaps it was "Austria" and you got the spelling wrong?"
Steveh, you're pathetic. Why are you so p*ssed off because the antipodes I know measure things like I posted earlier ?

"Don't be so DAFT!"
I like DAFT PUNK though. ;-)

Actually, I must concur here.
Calling Conrad a "liar" is definitely at the low end of argumentation.
It just shows you believe that Conrad is saying things to deceive people on this board. From that assumption on there's not a lot to expect.

Ralf

Has Paul stoped posting here? He think jus coz hes an ancap it makes him bettre dan us. well you know what it doesnt.

*ahem*

Conrad slipped a false premise by you at the outset.

It is kind of a waste of time arguing on the basis of a false premise. should either have corrected him at outset and capped off discussion or ignored.

or thought of some valid premise to replace it?

Something to think about...
October 2 2002 at 9:40 PM Conrad


Dear imperialists,
have you ever realized that absolutely NO ONE living in a (fully) metric country wants to go back to the costumary system of measurement that was used in his/her country in the past?


WITHOUT PARENTHESIS. Customary is not a "system" that one can go back to. It is a set of customaragy usages like language itself.

THERE IS PLENTY OF EVIDENCE OF PEOPLE IN METRIC COUNTRIES LIKING TO CONTINUE USING CUSTOMARY UNITS.
A German woman wrote Tony or somebody a letter approving English units recently. Ralf suggested the report was a lie but I checked up on her and she exists. Frankfurt or Mannheim. I got an email recently from her neice actually!
An Indian (Metric India) posted vehement support for pre-metric units on another board.
The Aussie Metrication Assoc. or somebody like that recently published a statement of concern about Aussie teens talking Imperial because they think its cool.
A Frenchwoman I know hates metric and has posted opposition to metrication in UK.
A Flemish chem engineer reports continued use of customary units in Belgium.

Metric in vernacular use is not a "system" either. One cannot go towards or away from something that does not exist. People who use the SET OF METRIC UNITS colloquially do not use them consistently or coherently (they measure forces and pressures in non-SI units deprecated by the official governors, like bar and kilogramforce.)

There simply IS NOT ZERO PREFERENCE FOR MEMBERS OF THE SET OF CUSTOMARY UNITS in metric countries.


WITH PARENTHESIS What is an example of a "FULLY" metric country? If there is no "fully" metric country then the premise is empty. It is a premise about the null set, the vacuum, consisting of fully metric countries.

And we know from earlier examples that Germany and India and Belgium and Australia cannot be fully metric countries because we see examples of non-zero dislike of metric in them and non-zero preference for customary.

PS it may be true that among metric users there are more mean nasty people who want to ERADICATE AND SUPPRESS the use of alternatives and that by contrast among traditional users there may be more tolerant even-tempered live and let-live types who don't mind some inconsistency and mish-mash. you might be able to get a valid premise of of that----in non-metric countries nobody wants to stamp out non-conforming metric use, whereas in metric contries at least 5 percent would like to see the non-conforming people given electroshock aversion therapy until they stop saying yard and acre and pint and stuff. This might be. I don't say it is true. But there may be a significant difference in the level of tolerance for alternatives. Don't know what it would prove though.
Anyway Conrads premise invalid as it stands.








And have you ever realized that at least 5% of the UK or US population wants to go metric?

This proves that - once people are used to it and everybody around them uses it - they find it the best possible system.

Conrad's post about his emphatic 'no-one but no-one' who wants to return to customary measures reminds one of some of the old Soviet Union election results, when voters regularly used to demonstrate 99.97% support (or thereabouts) for the much-hated Communist regime.

One of the stories that used to circulate in the S.U. went like this:

"Comrade! Comrade! We are going to have to postpone the elections!"

"Oh, why?"

"I've lost the results"

No, I haven't stopped posting. It just didn't seem worth the effort to debate any further with a crude liar like Conrad.

And, by the way, I am categorically NOT an ancap - I'm an ultraminimal monarchist and don't you forget it! And the reason I think I'm better than you all is because I am :-) .

My position is probably (as gleaned from reading your anti-state posts), very much similar to your own.

It may take a metric-favoring mind, but I never understood Conrad's initial post as a "100.00000% of the population", but as a "no significant minority".

I actually take it the way that you (at least in the beginning) understood it that way as well, but resorted to this nit-picking ("it only takes one imperial person to prove you wrong") once you realized that you can't really explain the fact that even in recently metricated countries there are no non-negligible minorities that want to go back to imperial.

Ralf

"Dear imperialists,
have you ever realized that absolutely NO ONE living in a (fully) metric country wants to go back to the costumary system of measurement that was used in his/her country in the past?"

The capitalization is Conrad's, on the "absolutely NO ONE"

Dear Ralfy the phrase "absolutely NO ONE" has a certain rhetorical effect even if afterwards someone comes around and says... well of course he didn't quite MEAN that not exactly, you know, "NO" ONE. All Conrad needs to do is write a little more clearly what he means or what you want him to mean. Maybe you should write something reasonable for him to say?

did you get good Fall colors around Boston area this year?

Temperature down to freezing in Munich area yesterday.

L

Paul wrote: "It just didn't seem worth the effort to debate any further with a crude liar like Conrad."

As I told you already: I'm just posting here what they (=the six antipodes I know) told me about their country. You know what, I'll give you their addresses and you tell them that THEY are crude liars. OK ?

Leonard,
the fact that Conrad may have used an ambigous wording in the beginning is not exactly the point here, is it ?
That's all form, fact is that you all know by now what Conrad meant, but yet haven't produced a valid argument against the *meaning* of his posting (of which you all were aware of).

Ralf

I thought I did.

Do you Kiwi "friends" really call themselves "Enzedders"?

Are you for real?

Listen to aussie radio over the internet - ok it won't mean you visited there but you'll hear newsreports of, for eg, someone falling 80ft and surviving.

It's pathetic some of the stories I hear!



PS:
Leonard: It's "autumn", not fall :)

I'm looking forward to "snow-on-floor" (That's my new american simplistic word for "winter"!!!!)

PPS:
Leonard: It's spelt "colour", not "color" :)

And "route" is pronounced like "root" so as not to be confused with the word "rout" which is to do with losing a battle.

[very smiley face]

I spent about 1.5 years in Frankfurt at Deutsche Boerse (after DB kicked Andersens Consulting out). The working language was English (Frankfurt wanted to play with the big boys so had to speak the same language as the big boys).

I had top spend a lot of time explaining to the Germans how to pronounce "Router" - they insisted on using the pronounciation given to them by Andersens.

I agree that route rhymes with root
but do not feel cooler writing colour for color.
Ultimately the poets define the language:
Bob Dylan said he got his kix on rooot sixtysix
and so it must be.

this fall (not autumn --- one says "fall season" of the
opera and "fall colors" of the trees) Paul has the
considerable honor (not honour) of singing what is arguably the wittiest light verse written in the 19th century.
"Our great Mikado, vituous man..."

It has these rhymes:

"...young men might best be steadied,
so he decreed in words succinct
that all who flirted leered or winked
unless connubially linked
should forthwith be beheaded..."

All here would probably agree that it is more important to keep words like "succinct, connubial, forthwith" current in the language than how things are spelled.

L

Before the autumn rain starts I have to buy a talent (48 pound) bag of cement and lay some flagstones by the back door. not eager to proceed with this but it must be attended to.

Martin - it "pronunciation" not "pronounciation".

You tripped up there, me thinks.

And how many months are there in "0.5" months, prey?
Do you honestly say "zero point five" months? Not "half a year"?

Leonard - What's wrong with "Autumn colours"? (ie not "Fall")

I notice that americans tend to say rout instead of route - when meaning "route" (if you know what I mean) - I reckon about 70% say "rout" to 30% "root"

And it's about 50/50 of americans say daytabase or daaartabase (for database). Only a tiny minority say daaartabase in the UK.

Apparently the "fin" in finance is meant to be pronounced like the fin that a shark has and not like "fine" which is how most brits say it.

And missile should have the "ile" pronounced like "mile" - a common american mis-pronunciation - otherwise Americans should say "genocide" as "gennosid"!

Eddy Murphy says "autumn" in Nutty professor BTW.

I laughed the other day when the Simpsons were on (more than I usually do) - Marge quite clearly pronounced "badminton" as "badmntn" (ie no vowels at the end)- I had to re-wind to prove that's how she said it!

>And it's about 50/50 of americans say daytabase or
>daaartabase (for database). Only a tiny minority say
>daaartabase in the UK.

Steve,
working in an American software company, I haven't heard anyone yet who pronounced "database" as daaartabase, only "daydabase" (with a "d", not a "t").
My officemate points out that there might be people in the mid-west who might not even know what it is and there would pronounce is as "daaartabase". Haven't met any of those yet, though.

The most interesting I find actually that many people prnounce "data acquisition" as "dayderaquisition", note the "r" in the middle. I've even heard Brits saying that.

Ralf

{My officemate points out that there might be people in the mid-west who might not even know what it is and there would pronounce is as "daaartabase". Haven't met any of those yet, though.}

I live in the Midwest, and I can find no grounds to support your officemate's unreasonable assumption.

I think spelling must be much more fixed in Britain than in America. There are a few "American" spellings which are used in all cases here, such as "color", but in most cases, multiple spellings are in common use.

For example, where I live, "centre" is just as common as "center", and "theatre" is actually the predominant version.

As for pronunciation, I pronounce all words the same way: "foo".

I lived in Canada for six years, haven't been there for 19 years (have lived in Europe since), and still say "tomaydo" not "tomahto" (i.e. tomato). Stubborness on my part?

potato

I think the remark about spelling being less rigid in america must be true.

I have seen "cancelled" spelled as "canceled" as well as "cancelled" in america and on american websites.

Whenever I see "canceled" I cannot help myself reading it in my mind as "canseeled".

The "zed" ("zee") thing is a bit weird too - eg "analyze" in stead of "analyse". I admit the UK is a bit weird on this one as Z and S seem to be used either interchangably or strictly one way or another depending on the word.

And then there's the pronunciation of "Z". Americans tend to say "zee" whereas we say "Zed". Apparently the reason why we say "zed" in the UK is so when something is being spelled we don't mix up "C" (see) with "Z" (Zed/Zee) - You zee?

P.S. Most americans (and aussies/nz) I have spoke to say "daaahtabase". I though it rather "sweet" when I was in Baltimore (Maryland) and a bloke I was working with kept saying "we'll put it in the daahtabase - oh sorry - daytabase" as if it was offending the mother tongue or something! Then I said "where does the name 'Maryland' come from" - pronouncing it "mary land" (with mary being said like the womans name) and he quickly reprimanded me saying that no-one says it that way and it should be said as "marry-land" (marry as in marriage) with the last "a" being softened.

I though this odd until I realised that marylebone in Northwest London is pronounced "Marry lebone" with the first "e" softened and not "Mary-le-bone" as you'd naturally expect from reading it.

Then there's "Reading" in central Berkshire - why isn't it pronounced "reeding"?

Don't you just love English?

Time to learn Welsh me thinks...

MikeW,
my officmate's assumption was more of a "I've never heard anyone pronouncing it daartabase and I can assure you noone on the east and west coast says it that way, but if someone claims such a thing the only people left are the mid-west people of which I don't know that many".
I, personally, don't believe it either.

SteveH,
so what strange "Americans" do you have there ? Maybe they have been in the UK too long and therefore got "britishized"...

Ralf

Most Americans would say 'daydabase' - some (wrongly) 'daddabase'. I have never heard 'dahtabase', but my source says it is British!

'Canceled' is the correct spelling over here, and we say 'Mary' and 'marry' the same. Even I do, unless I am speaking very carefully. Following short 'a' with 'r' simply sounds unnatural - I must just be used to 'lazy' American English.

It seems that any board with both Americans and Englishmen eventually discusses linguistic differences. It seems to occur when ther is a shortage of on-topic material ...

Andrew Usher

Andrew, I have heard Americans say daydabase and dahtabase(like darterbase, but with no r) and also as database(the first a being as in cat), whereas I have only heard Britons say it "day-tuh/ter-bayse)

Regional dialects in North America are really very diverse.

For me, "Mary", "marry" and "merry" are all pronounced distinctly. When I was in elementary school, I remember having a teacher from the Midwest who used them as examples of homophones. I couldn't figure out what she was talking about.

See "The PHonological Atlas of North America" at http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/home.html
to see just how diverse American pronunciation is.

I'm a database administrator (for Oracle) so I hear the word an awful lot.

When I said daaahtabase I was including "daaadhabase" - the emphasis was on the "a" being "ah" or "ay".

All the americans in the PriceWaterhouse office in Baltimore said daaahdabase - only the Brits there said "daytabase" - I hope this answers Ralf's questions but seeing as all his Brit friends prefer metric to imperial I am sure that all his american chums don't *really* exist either!

(I jest)

But Lt Commander Data is always "dayta", except when the doctor who used to be McCloud's NY girlfriend came on board and got it wrong (just for the moment I can't remember either the actress's name or the character's).

Dr. Polaski was her name, she sucked big time.
I think she was supposed to give "The next generation" a kind of "Bones" flair, but miserably failed.

Yes, Diana Muldaur. She certainly wasn't on a par with Dr Crusher.

Yes, even with her moronic sidekick, Wesley Crusher, she was still way better (and also nicer to look at).

Ralf

Jeez, you people are sad! Jadzeia is clearly infinitely superior.

No doubt about that.
IMHO she even beats Seven of Nine.
I also liked her successor, the one with the black, short hair (can't remember the name).

Ralf

In real life or her character's? Ezri.

Ezri's cute, I'll grant you (and is that really how you spell Jadzeia?), but haven't you've gone off topic a bit (or a bit further!)? Dr Crusher was better than Dr Polaski as a substantial character. Mind you, Beverley is also quite sexy, especially for those of us who no longer think we'd have much of a shot with anyone as young as (Dax-less) Ezri. However, if you want someone really sexy, try T'Pol in the new Enterprise.

In the interests of taste and impartiality, I have removed the last two postings.
Thank you.

Hey!? What two postings (I'm not getting an answer to that, am I?)

Nothing significant but an exchange which might, in time, get out of hand. I hope the contributors understand.

>which might, in time, get out of hand

Hmm, a preemptive strike ?
Highly questionable, such things...

Ralf

What can they have been? Oh, the anxiety! The stress of not knowing! It's like missing an episode of the X-files - the same gut-wrenching fear of never being able to pick up the thread again! Well, almost ...

Now I'm confused!

You're leaving yourself open there, Steve.

IT was my post that was deleted.

And I don't know why.

IT was something about metric being rubbish so I find it strange to believe that I was censored on that!

I remain confused