After giving the weight of his baby Leo Blair in lbs and oz - and after Gordon Brown followed suit and did the same after his baby was born - now our Wannabe President says that in enforcing U.N. Resolution 1441: 'We will not give an inch'.

What kind of example do these people set forth when they've banned the public from trading in lbs and oz and from getting planning permission for their house extensions in feet and inches?

Tony,
nobody cares what system of measurement you use at home and nobody is going to forbid you to use imperial or metric or any other kind of system.

When trade is involved though, every transaction must be in accordance with the trade regulations.

Conrad,

You're an idiot. Great leaders lead by example, and if you want your country metric, then the leaders would have to give the example. Thus, Tony Blair would give his baby's weight in pounds and ounces. Obviously, Mr. Blair wants to do the right thing and continue to use imperial measures in his everyday life and by giving that example wants every other British subject to do the same. Besides, until you convert your land registry, you will never metricate. If you want confirmation on that, I suggest you read Andro Linklater's book, "Measuring America." By the way, Mr. Linklater is English.

The norm in the British medical profession appears ot be to record the baby's weight usign metric units, but to tell the mother the weight in imperial units.

Is this soem sort of censorship?

Censorship ? No, it's just an anachronism !

> When trade is involved though, every transaction
> must be in accordance with the trade regulations.

This simply does not follow. If one person doing as he pleases with his own property is a private matter and does not involve the state, how is it that two people participating in voluntary exchange -- also entirely with private property -- is somehow a public matter and should involve the state?

If two people are conducting business and they have a dispute which they cannot resolve, they turn to the courts to resolve the dispute for them. If it becomes a matter of interpretation, then it makes sense that there should be one standard that all should follow.

Let me give you an example. I [a Brit] am in France and I agree to buy a gallon bottle of whiskey from an American. When I get home I find that it is less than I expected. I then go to the [French] courts to sue for the balance. The American insists that he delivered one gallon of whiskey. Eventually it transpires that I was taliking about imperial gallons and the American about US gallons. Who is right? - French law does not recognise gallons (US or Imeprial).

That is one reason why the state should define measures that are used for legal transactions.

"Obviously, Mr. Blair wants to do the right thing and continue to use imperial measures in his everyday life"

"Do the right thing"? Is this some sort of moral crusade?

"[E]very other British subject to do the same"

We have discussed this before, it is citizen or national, but not subject.

"The norm in the British medical profession appears to be to record the baby's weight using metric units, but to tell the mother the weight in imperial units."

Indeed, all medical data will be so recorded, so birthweights will be recorded in kilograms, with low birthweight being defined as below 2.5 kg. When Fergus Walsh tells us this amount he says '5lb 8oz', which is completely arbitrary. Unfortunately, parents are informed in "other" units and where they are told the original measurement many would probably stare blankly. The well catalogued incident of the death of a baby from a birthweight miscalculation arose from the fact that when an inquiry was made as to the weight it was for some reason reported in imperial and had to be converted back, resulting in a mistake.

"Is this some sort of censorship?"

Probably, trying to avoid any real effect of the metric system. Again.

"The norm in the British medical profession appears ot be to record the baby's weight usign metric units, but to tell the mother the weight in imperial units.

Is this soem sort of censorship? "

Thats pretty pathetic.

Are you saying that the 3% of people that regularly use kilogrammes will be told that they cannot find out their babies weight in kilogrammes if they asked?

Like the nurse will say "sorry that's classified information" ?

Truly pathetic!

Who would force such nasty rules?

That would be like making a criminal out of someone just because his customer asked for the bananas in pounds!

(ermm....)

I suggest that the copy of the baby's progress chart which is kept by the mother would have two columns for the baby's weight - one in metric and one in imperial units. The card would also have a conversion chart.

The nurse would fill in the metric column and the mother would be free to fill in imperial column if she so wished, using the conversion chart supplied. In this was the metric weight would always be available to the medical profession should they need it and be unable to contact the child's official records, while at the same time the mother tell her mother how much the baby weighed using whichever units she preferred.

So the mother would not get the service she wanted - just a conversion chart so that she could get on with it herself.

Very nice!

On the other hand, if the child were to fall ill while she was abroad, the information "kg" is pretty international, but the symbols "lb" and "oz" would be pretty well meaningless. In the Netherlands for example, a "pond" is 500g and a "ons" is 100g. (When the Netherlands went metric in the 1820's, the old "pond" and "ons" were defined to mean 500g and 100g respectively. (Prior ro metrication, each city had its own "pond" and "ons").

So if the child were ill while they were abroad then a British child could not be weighed - there and then - on a local weighing scale?

Oh, perhaps you are saying that if the mother phoned the doctors then she would not be able to say the weight in KG because she didn't know? Well two points on this one:

1) International phone calls - why not call a doc in the UK?

2) Millions of Brits travel abroad every year, don't you think the procedure of converting Brit measures to metric (by the "foreign") doc might have happened at least once?

Yes I know about the dutch "pond" but internationally only two systems are used (oh, and don't start going on about the different american variants - lets stick to *this* particular subject for now)

A mother recently told me how, at the first opportuity after the birth of her baby, she asked the nurse how much he weighed.

The nurse said rather icily: 'Just over 2.9 kilograms'.

The (metric-educated) mother replied: 'What's that in pounds and ounces?'.

The unhelpful nurse replied: 'I'm not allowed to tell you that. We are only allowed to give you this information in metric units".

It was only a day or two later that the husband managed to do a conversion exercise and learned the baby was just over 6 lbs.

Just the sort of attitude that comes with compulsory metrication - cold, unhelpful, unfeeling...robotic, almost

There is nothing wrong with pounds and ounces and they are recognized around the world. Btw there are no American varients to pounds and ounces. A pound is a pound in the US too. We just don't use a 14 pound stone. If Tony Blair wants to tell the world his baby's weight in pounds and ounces then he should have every right to do so. If you want to stick with imperial measures, then stubbornly do so. The world will make room, because they'll have to. We seem to have no trouble doing so here in the US (and as I have said before, we are not about to metricate).

Who gives a damn about whether the world will be able to adjust to pounds and ounces. Whatever happened to British stubborness? I was on exchange to France, and when I had to tell the government doctor my weight and height, I gave it to him in American Customary measures. He then promptly converted between inches/feet to meters, and pounds to kilos. Similarly they translate from French to English and vice versa. Language is different from country to country, so why can't measures be, so long as there is a known standard? In this case there is?

MattS wrote: "Language is different from country to country, so why can't measures be, so long as there is a known standard?"

Fortunately we know you're only kidding. Having 2,000 different languages and 2,000 "standards" would be hell, and you know it.

By the way, if you'd be REALLY SERIOUS about what you're saying, you'd convert your weight and height from imperial to metric YOURSELF when you're abroad. It's just a matter of basic respect ! Imagine this: a Chinese man comes to the US and when the doctor asks him how much he weighs, he says "1440 liang". Wouldn't that be extremely arrogant ??? It's like saying: "you stupid moron, look it up yourself ! I'm proud of my chinese customary system and I'll use it, wherever I go."

Think about it !

PS: 1440 liang = 72 kg

A Chinaman who doesn't speak any English/American travels for the first time to the United States, by jet plane.

He has a heart attack in the baggage hall and shouts for help.

An attendant comes up and asks him what the matter is.

He says in a Chinese accent 'No speak English'.

According to the previous posting, this would be a 'gross discourtesy to his hosts'

Congrats Tony, for totally missing the point !

From my experience of travelling in many countries, the most commonly used system of communication is the English language, the metric system and the 24 hour clock.

"Official" and "real world" can be different sometimes.

Remember that the next time a 6 and a half foot South African says "I'll meat you in the pub at 6"

Better set the alarm clock, just in case!

:)

"I'll meat you in the pub at 6."

Sounds like very threatening language. I think I would report him/her to the police.

<<
Remember that the next time a 6 and a half foot South African says "I'll meat you in the pub at 6"
>>

Steve - South Africa is metric and as far as they are concerend, their rugby players are big if they are over 2m, not the paltry 1,95m that seems to scare you.


BTW - did you mean "meat" as in "braai", or "meet" as in a "coming together".

:-)

You all have missed the point. If you want your pounds and ounces and feet and yards and inches. Then mimick us here in the United States. Complain to your members of Parlaiment. Demonstrate. Do everything in your power to keep them. Do you live in a democracy or not?

I want to keep my inches and pounds, so I would not tell the Dr. in France my measurments in metric. I want him to realize that my system is as acceptable, accurate, standardized, and scientific as his is. There is nothing unscientific, unexact, or wrong with imperial measures. We use them everyday here in the US and there is no reason why we shouldn't be able to continue to do so. The point I was making about language is that, just as our language is cultural, so is our system of measurement. It is truly unique and if you want to push tolerance, then tolerate inches and pounds, just as you tolerate different languages.

"The point I was making about language is that, just as our language is cultural, so is our system of measurement. It is truly unique and if you want to push tolerance, then tolerate inches and pounds, just as you tolerate different languages."

Fair enough. But don't be so arrogant as to presume that everyone is able to understand you outside the US. Metric is the world language of measurement, so take that into account and drop your feet and inches in metric countries !

I don't think it's appropriate to tell someone in the US what to do if you do not understand US culture. I thought that the English understood stubborness. You complain in Europe that Americans are arrogant. The only way to understand Americans is to understand that we all left Europe because we were persecuted/killed for our beliefs. We want to do it our way. Thus, we do not take lightly the world or the government telling us how to be. Why do you think we wanted Independence from the UK? So, you may tell us that you want us to measure metric and we will say phooey and do it our own way.

Matt

I agree that many people left Europe, including Britain, because of persecution for their beliefs, the 'Pilgrim Fathers' and the victims of the 'Scottish Clearances' being cases in point.

Though it must be said that many other emigrants to America were economic migrants, and others such as the Irish in the 1840s and 1850s left because of famine.

However, I always thought the American War of Independence was fought largely on the principle of 'no taxation without representation'

^Taxation minus representation was just one of many causes of the Revolution.

Yes, I meant meet

If you have questions about the causes of the Revolution, just refer to the Declaration of Independence. In there is a list of the grievances that the patriots had with King George III. Furthermore, while you may be correct that some of the immigrants came for economic reasons, when they arrived, they found an American culture which was quite independent minded. You still have to remember that this country is massive, and along with it comes an independent way of thinking because groups could go where they wanted and have their own ideas. Along with this independent thinking comes a stubborness to claim our own systems, including the American Customary System of Weights and Measures. If you want more ideas about American culture, I suggest you read the writings of Alexis de Toqueville.