The informative visitors centre just behind the Kings' Head, High Beach, Epping Forest - about 330 feet above sea level and just 15 miles from the centre of London - has just re-vamped its many display boards which feature the flora and fauna of Epping Forest.

Due to the actions of BWMA Committee Member Mr Iveyray, who complaind about the state of the previous display panels, gone are the weights of deer and other fauna in kilograms, gone are the heights of flowers and mushrooms in centimeters, and gone are the dimensions of various parts of the forest in hectares. In their place today are Imperial units with no metric in brackets.

[based on a report from Mr Iveyray]

The information centre is visited by tens of thousands of people every summer.

The M25 goes under a part of it

<<< In their place today are Imperial units with no metric in brackets.>>>
<<<Tens of Thousands will Benefit from Imperial Victory at Epping Forest Conservation Centre>>>

Well Done Tony. Never mind about the difficulties this will cause for thousands of children who might want to learn about the wildlife - at least your BWMA member is happy.

Nice touch not even having metric in brackets

I occasionally find myself having sympathy for your cause as I try to see things from both sides. I see where you are coming from with road signs because by law they have to be imperial and everyone is used to them being imperial, but to amend an educational noticeboard to please one selfish old git is extrememly offensive. In case you hadn't noticed metric is actually the norm for this kind of thing - do you ever watch wildlife programmes on TV?

This has wound me up to the extent that I am actually going to write to the Conservation centre.

As a non-extremist pro-metric I actually had some respect for some of your views (a concept I don't expect you or any of the other extremists on either side to understand) but this action makes a complete mockery of your pretence of being "pro-choice" and I hope this makes some of your more moderate supporters reconsider.

<<
The information centre is visited by tens of thousands of people every summer.
>>

And how many of those thousands are children who will have most likely done about this sort of thing at school in metric? Don't think any schools that might have been planning a school trip there will be too pleased about this. Like it or not Tony, children learn about weights in kilos, heights in cm, etc. Many younger children will not now understand inches, pounds, etc.

Like Andy, I am a moderate pro metricist so I understand that some older people may want to see inches, pounds, etc. However, please JUSTIFY this action taken to oust the metric on these signs altogether. Safety? Erm...no, we are talking flowers and animals here, not roads.

Personally I would prefer to have seen metric as well as imperial, brackets or no brackets - but that's just IMHO.

On the "other side" - I think people will find that imperial is more prevalent with kids than first meets the eye - and I'm not talking about the fact that imperial *is* taught at schools (albeit to a lesser scientific degree).

So I find myself in a strange position here, I'm afraid I don't agree 100% with the action taken in the main text of this thread.

However, perhaps some of the pro-metric moderates here can understand why I might get thoroughly p*ssed off when individuals in some organisations refuse to supply imperial information in certain circumstances? For example when Alton Towers show metric only signs for their rides (both height and weight warnings) and then give you a "picture souvenir" of you and your mates on a rollercoaster "travelling at 80 KMPH" (I kid you not with the spelling there!)

And there are many other situations where this sort of thing happens.

<<
For example when Alton Towers show metric only signs for their rides (both height and weight warnings)
>>

These signs are probably part of Alton Tower's insurance policy. As such they must meet certain legal requirements. In the UK, the list of units that may be used for legal purposes is catalogued in the EU directive 80/181/EEC and reproduced in the UK legislation that is derived from that directive.

What wording would you wnat Alton Towers to use, bearing in mind that they probably have a lawyer looking over their shoulder?

Do what they do in Blackpool - use both systems.

Incidentally, in todays "claim culture" I'm surprised that no-one has tried to sue over signs that mean nothing to some people.

EU directives or not, if the information is not clear there'll always be a lawyer rubbing his hands.

(or her hands)

SteveH wrote

<<
Do what they do in Blackpool - use both systems.
>>

This of course poses the problem "If there is a difference, which takes precedence?". UK law says that metric units takes precedence, but does the average punter know that?

The one that takes precedence is the one that the recipient CHOOSES to see - *IF* there is a CHOICE, and regardless of brackets and size.

Deny that choice and your forcing people to think your way.

Yes Andy, because children don't know what a pound, ounce or mile are, do they?

SteveH wrote

<<
The one that takes precedence is the one that the recipient CHOOSES to see - *IF* there is a CHOICE, and regardless of brackets and size.
>>


Consider the scenario:

A particular ride at a theme park is restricted to people who are over 1m/3ft 4in tall. A child whose height is 101cm goes on the ride, slips out of the safety harness and is badly injured. The parents sue.

At court, the theme park management/unsurance company who are tyrng to worm their way out of paying damages argue that since the child was 3ft 3.8in tall, it should not have been using the ride, so no damages are payable. The parents argue that since the child was taller than 1m, damages are payable.

Which measurement should the courts use in trying to assess damages - the level of damages being dependent upon negligence or otherwise of the parents? It is a little late to say "I choose X", because the other pary says "I choose Y" and a child is lying there badly injured.

This is one very good reason why single units of measurement are best, and if supplementary units are used, then they must clearly be labeled as such and the exact values should be chosen to err on the side of caution.

I would decide that the Theme Park should pay damages because they failed to use exact units. There is no reason for not having dual units if the sign said:

No one under 1 m/39.37" Or it could read No one under 39"/99.06 cm

Both of the above are appropriate and would suffice in accuracy. Here in the US you would hardly ever see anything like the above at a theme park. Here are some for roller coasters in Busch Gardens in Williamsburg, VA:

Alpengeist - Height restriction: Minimum of 54" tall
The Big Bad Wolf - Height restriction: Minimum of 42" tall
Loch Ness Monster - Height restriction: Minimum of 48" tall

I did find dual units on Disney's roller coasters and as you can see the metric measures are not always converted properly (113 cm is greater than 44"0):

Space Mountain - Height Requirement: 44" (113 cm) or taller
Big Thunder Mountain Railroad - Height Requirement: 40" (102 cm) or taller
Primeval Whirl - Height Requirement: 48" (122 cm) or taller

But, as I said before, Disney is unusual in printing both numbers. I would assume they do because they have an "international" crowd coming. As far as regulations, the States make the laws and all the states I found use ONLY inches to set limits.

No feet? How peculiar.

MattS wrote

<<
I would decide that the Theme Park should pay damages because they failed to use exact units.
>>

Under EU law (and hence under UK law), the metric measurement is the measurement that the courts would use in deciding the question. The law permits the use of supplementary measurements until 31-Dec-2009. After that date any measurements that are quotes or made for legal, commercial, public administration or pubkic health purposes may only be made using the units specified in the EU directive (ie metric units plus a few others in specified circumstances only).

Doctors record the height of people in inches only in the US, and their weight in pounds (Babies get pounds/ounces).

Height on driver's licenses is in feet and inches, and weight in pounds.

MattS wrote

<<
Doctors record the height of people in inches only in the US
>>

Since the US uses customary measure for recording medical information, it makes sense to use inches only, rather than feet and inches. A height of 5ft 11in has at least three digits and a separator while a height of 71in has two digits and no separator. Moreover, it is easier to load inch-only measurements onto a computer than it is to load feet and inch measurements.

There is a similar rationale for using pounds only rather than stones and pounds.

And before anyone brings up the excruciating pain of having to constantly multiply and divide by twelve, let me mention that most people are between five and six feet tall, therefore, knowing that 5'=60" is all that is necessary.

Indeed, Bud. I agree. Combined with the fact that the 12s one of the easiest multiplication tables of all. But yes, I know 4' = 48", 5' = 60", and 6' = 72"

Martin - note that I said "despite" EU regulations.

Try not to rely on regulations to suggest that no-one could sue if their 4ft son got injured because only metric was on display.

There is an element of common sense, as well as EU directive blah blah point blah blah version 3

Steve, I think that you missed my point.

What I was saying was that if there is a conflict between metric and Imperial units, then I believe that the courts are bound to use the metric units (unless there is good reason to the contrary.

I was also showint that customer choice in this particular instance is irrelevant - it is too late to do anything about choice because a child has been injured and teh courts have to decide whether or not there was negligence on the part of the parents.

Martin,

With regard to using feet and inches, it doesn't seem to be a computer age generated thing. I think that from before computers people's heights were generally recorded by doctors in inches only. Shall we say then that the result of it being easy for computer entry is a coincidence?

Also, while doctors tend to use only inches, the government uses feet/inches as I said before on our drivers' licences. I believe that the computer databases for the police and other similar ones use feet/inches. I'm sure you know it's simple to program something to use base-12 instead of base-10.

All this talk of doctors!

If a doctor asks - "how tall are you? are you 1.73m?"

Most will stare blankly back.

To suggest that the ordinary Doctor doesn't speak the language of all of his patients is ludicrous.

Reminds me of "Welsh in a week" (a show on S4C for newbies learninging Welsh, with onscreen help using an "example person" each week). One week it was an estate agent. The whole programme was in imperial Welsh with no exception. This is because ordinary folk want to hear their prospective new house in measures they prefer, regardless of the suits at the EU. When young people were guided around a house in "real life examples" not one of the house-viewers asked (in Welsh) "What's that in cm?"