A German student friend of mine went home for spring break. He was telling me about it, and when I asked about climate he said that it was freezing, and even a few degrees below zero one day, and he was glad to be back here where it was seventy degrees.
Yes, he used two scales in the same sentence, and did not specify which one either time. And yet there was no confusion or problems, and I knew exactly what he was saying. What I get out of this is that having a mix of systems is not a problem at all, as long as you use common sense.
I realize that this is a rather simple example, but the message still holds.

Firstly, your German friend was probably showing off that he understood the archaic system that is used in the United States [and in the UK].

Secondy, there have been cases where mixing units has caused problems. I wil relate two such intances here:

1. It was reported on one of the BWMA threads a few years ago that a baby had died because its weight records had been kept in a mixture of pounds and kilograms. Common sense might have dictated that the medical staff could have told one from the other, but the use of two different systems hid the trends. It is now mandatory that all medical records in the UK be kept in metric units.


2. WHen the CIty of Johannesburg was laid out in a grid pattern in 1885, two surveyors were contracted to do the actual work. One did the work to the North of Bree Street and the other to the South of Bree Street. ("Bree" is Afrikaans/Dutch for "wide"). The surveyor who laid out the Southern half was unaware that he shuold have been using Cape (or Rheinish) feet. (1 Cape foot = 1.033 English feet). Both surveyors started at the same point and set to work. Bofore the error was discovered, many buildign had been built and to this day many of the N/S roads in the city have a "dogleg" in them as they cross Bree Street. The dogleg increases in size as one moves Eastwards. If you look at the 1:10000 map of Johannesburg on www.multimap.com, this dogleg can been seen. (Visit www.multimap.com and work your way in until you get to the Johannesburg city centre).

Of course, we are talking about two COMPLETELY different units (unlike the feet & cape feet and pounds & kilogrammes examples).

You see, Temperatures rarely get above around forty (absolute maximum)- usually it is mid-twenties and under. Yet in Fahrenheit, temperatures rarely go beloew 20 MAXIMUM (usually 30).

so, to put it another way, there is no reall issue.


Bud, you will actually find most Britons use a combination of Fahrenheit and celcius; expseciall celsius for cold and Fahrenheit for hot.

Martin, regarding your first point, I don't understand how you can show off by using a system that everyone else uses. Everyone in the US knows Fahrenheit, so I don't see how using it amounts to showing off. I would think that using Celsius (or talking in German) would be the way to show off in the US.
Regarding the two instances you cited above: In the first example, obviously the doctors did not bother labelling their numbers with appropriate units. As an engineer, you will know that it is always good practice to do so. Not doing so can cause many other problems. Labelling numbers with units should be done even if only one system is being used.
For the second example, the English system has now been standardized to the extent that this would never happen.

Germany
April 10 2004 at 8:54 AM Bud

A German student friend of mine went home for spring break. He was telling me about it, and when I asked about climate he said that it was freezing, and even a few degrees below zero one day, and he was glad to be back here where it was seventy degrees.
Yes, he used two scales in the same sentence, and did not specify which one either time. And yet there was no confusion or problems, and I knew exactly what he was saying. What I get out of this is that having a mix of systems is not a problem at all, as long as you use common sense.
I realize that this is a rather simple example, but the message still holds.

What a simplistic way to proof that mixing measurements presents no problems Measurement mistakes are made in metric and imperial. So, COMMON SENSE should tell you that using dual systems doubles if not triples the chances to do so.

What you should have rather honed into is the fact that the German said it was even below zero C. He did that b/c he had no clue where the freezing point on the antiquated F scale is.


Martin meant the GERMAN was showing off his knowledge of Fahrenheit.

So, if Doctors forget to state the units of weights in dual measurement countries people have to suffer and die for that oversight. Why can't that happen in fully metric countries? Nobody dies in these countries even if the Dr. forgets to add kg. I let you work out why?

<<
What you should have rather honed into is the fact that the German said it was even below zero C. He did that b/c he had no clue where the freezing point on the antiquated F scale is.
>>
He did that because he was talking about Germany, and in Germany they use Celsius. Looking at it another way, he used no conversion factors, stating the temperature in each country in the units used in that country. And if you don't know where the freezing point is on the Fahrenheit scale, you aren't going to get very far as an engineer in the US, so I find it impossible to believe that he did not know that. Lastly, I would appreciate it if you would avoid using derogatory adjectives every time you refer to an imperial unit. They make no contribution to an intelligent discussion.

<<
Martin meant the GERMAN was showing off his knowledge of Fahrenheit.
>>
That's quite hard to swallow. First, how would anyone know he was German? Second, all weather reports in the US are given in Fahrenheit, and all he did was quote a weather report, which he could have done even if he had zero knowledge of that scale.

<<
So, if Doctors forget to state the units of weights in dual measurement countries people have to suffer and die for that oversight. Why can't that happen in fully metric countries? Nobody dies in these countries even if the Dr. forgets to add kg. I let you work out why?
>>
You can never convert from one system to another without a transition period. And it is only during such a period that these errors would happen. If Britain hadn't tried to convert to metric, this would never have happened.

"First, how would anyone know he was German?"

Well, how about.........

a) The funny accent ?
b) The slightly daft haircut (possibly permed) ?
c) A liking for sausage and pickled cabbage ?
d) Not hating Michael Schumacher's guts ?
e) An inability to understand jokes ?
f) Amazing efficiency and accuracy ?

Come on. They aren't that hard to spot !

Bud wrote

<<
Regarding the two instances you cited above: In the first example, obviously the doctors did not bother labelling their numbers with appropriate units. As an engineer, you will know that it is always good practice to do so. Not doing so can cause many other problems. Labelling numbers with units should be done even if only one system is being used.
>>

A few points - it was health visitors who kept the records, not doctors.

Secondly, for what I heard, it would appear that the records were properly labeled, but because two or more different health visitors used different units, it was not easy to see a loss of weight. The correct procedure that should have been followed would have been for dual units to have been used for a specific period (say 3 to 6 months) and that all medical workers in the country be required ot use dual units. This would have ensured that medical workers are familar with both sets of units and would also have made it easier to track weight changes - often weight changes rather than the weight itself is the important factor in medicine.

Finally, how can the changeover be justified. Quite easily -

1. If medical journals use the same units worldwide - then they wiull be understood better than if different units are used in different countries.

2. If medical staff operate in a foreign country or if they find that they have to work with collegues who were trained elsewhere in the world, then, by using the same units they are halfway towards working as a team.

<<
1. If medical journals use the same units worldwide - then they wiull be understood better than if different units are used in different countries.
>>
If you see a value in a medical journal that is in a different unit than you are used to, in almost all cases a mental conversion will be all that is necessary. If you need an exact value (for example if you want to compare it to your own data) then pick up a pocket calculator. If medical journals used the same units worldwide it would help, but it is not really that big of a deal.

<<
2. If medical staff operate in a foreign country or if they find that they have to work with collegues who were trained elsewhere in the world, then, by using the same units they are halfway towards working as a team.
>>
I would say they are more like 1% there. I have seen weights and heights in nothing but pounds and feet/inches my whole life, but I am sure that it would be no problem for me to use metric if I went to a metric country. It might take a while for me to get a feel of what is tall, short, fat, thin, but I can't imagine it being that much of an issue.

I reflect here on posts above that condone F scale for warm/hot and C for cold.

I've never known such crass stipidity and contrived arguments to justify obtuseness.

Riiiiiight..... CONGRATULATIONS!! You have just succesfully insulted most of the British nation.

Re: Germany April 11 2004, 9:37 AM

<<What you should have rather honed into is the fact that the German said it was even below zero C. He did that b/c he had no clue where the freezing point on the antiquated F scale is.
>>
He did that because he was talking about Germany, and in Germany they use Celsius.
Looking at it another way, he used no conversion factors, stating the temperature in each country in the units used in that country. And if you don't know where the freezing point is on the Fahrenheit scale, you aren't going to get very far as an engineer in the US, so I find it impossible to believe that he did not know that.

metre:
Pure assumption and as always way of the mark. He told you in the STATES and spoke to an American (you), who in his mind is presumambly ignorant of Celsius that is was 70F and below 0 C. You can't have it both ways. No engineer outside the US will ever need F and according to you not even in American Universities.

Lastly, I would appreciate it if you would avoid using derogatory adjectives every time you refer to an imperial unit. They make no contribution to an intelligent discussion.
metre:
Antiquated is the right description for obsolete, outdated, superceded units and clarifies their status vis-a-vis modern metric units.
<<
Martin meant the GERMAN was showing off his knowledge of Fahrenheit.
>>
That's quite hard to swallow. First, how would anyone know he was German? Second, all weather reports in the US are given in Fahrenheit, and all he did was quote a weather report, which he could have done even if he had zero knowledge of that scale.

metre:
You knew, and he showed off to you.
Second...Precisely, so where did you get the notion that mixing measurements is fine?



<<
So, if Doctors forget to state the units of weights in dual measurement countries people have to suffer and die for that oversight. Why can't that happen in fully metric countries? Nobody dies in these countries even if the Dr. forgets to add kg. I let you work out why?
>>
You can never convert from one system to another without a transition period. And it is only during such a period that these errors would happen. If Britain hadn't tried to convert to metric, this would never have happened.

metre:
Yes, you can, and must, in certain instances! Doctors, aircraft controllers when it will revert back to metric, road signs, odometers, and many others.
But that was not the argument. I challenged your statement that mixing measurements is fine. What has your last sentence to do with my last question?

<<
Pure assumption and as always way of the mark. He told you in the STATES and spoke to an American (you), who in his mind is presumambly ignorant of Celsius that is was 70F and below 0 C. You can't have it both ways. No engineer outside the US will ever need F and according to you not even in American Universities.
>>
Can't have what both ways? Regarding what American universities use, I think I have said that one too many times. And no, Americans are not ignorant of Celsius. Please think before posting.

<<
Antiquated is the right description for obsolete, outdated, superceded units and clarifies their status vis-a-vis modern metric units.
>>
Now do you see why people on this board lose patience with you? You are unable to see two sides of the argument. I have certain feelings about metric units, but I don't refer to them in such a manner because this is a discussion board, not an outlet for emotions. You know that people here may disagree with you (that is the whole point), so if you stated your argument in a decent and respectful manner then people would be more likely to listen.

<<
Second...Precisely, so where did you get the notion that mixing measurements is fine?
>>
Reread this thread.

<<
Yes, you can, and must, in certain instances! Doctors, aircraft controllers when it will revert back to metric, road signs, odometers, and many others.
But that was not the argument. I challenged your statement that mixing measurements is fine. What has your last sentence to do with my last question?
>>
What have half the things you have said on this thread to do with what the thread is about?

I see that the Easter break hasn't stopped old-boy eric from being as nasty as ever! Lonely chap!

Hey, eric, care to tell me that I did not buy some trousers (not jeans) from Germany in inch measurements?

I note that temperatures are slowly getting there! Recently breaking into the 60's - as TV report are increasingly telling us in Fahrenheit -a sure way to tell that the UK is approaching summer, stan ;-)

And thanks - Evil Engineer - for injecting that bit of humour there! But you didn't mention beach towells at all!!!

Re: Germany April 13 2004, 7:05 AM

You keep on accusing me of straying off the point. I have taken the trouble and re-read my and your posts regarding this subject.

You started by saying that your German friend quoted 70F to you, contrasting that mild temperature to miserable minus Celsius in Germany. Using that statement, you surmised that a mix of units is quite easily achieved without conversions

What I dispute is the fact that your example does no such thing by saying:

<<What you should have rather honed into is the fact that the German said it was even below zero C. He did that b/c he had no clue where the freezing point on the antiquated F scale is.
>>

You refuted this by stating:

*He did that because he was talking about Germany, and in Germany, they use Celsius.
Looking at it another way, he used no conversion factors, stating the temperature in each country in the units used in that country. And if you don't know where the freezing point is on the Fahrenheit scale, you aren't going to get very far as an engineer in the US, so I find it impossible to believe that he did not know that*.

My reply to that:
Pure assumption and as always way of the mark. He told you in the STATES and spoke to an American (you), who in his mind is presumably ignorant of Celsius that it was 70F and below 0 C. You can't have it both ways. No engineer outside the US will ever need F and according to you not even in American Universities.
>>
Your answer:
*Can't have what both ways? Regarding what American universities use, I think I have said that one too many times. And no, Americans are not ignorant of Celsius. Please think before posting*.

<<Maybe this helps.
My experience with Americans ignorance of metric units supports the original version. He quoted, as you later rightly perceive in Fahrenheit, b/c he heard it somewhere. His friendly attempt to go native and make himself understood ceased when it came to converting 0 C into F for the given reason. You can’t have it both ways expressed my believe that he meant to be friendly, or as Martin said show off by using F when it was easy, and Celsius when he couldn’t convert. And yes, most Americans are ignorant of Celsius, I shall give you some examples in time. So, who should think? >>

<<Second...Precisely, so where did you get the notion that mixing measurements is fine? >>

*Reread this thread*.

<<I have, and nothing has changed >>

<<So, if Doctors forget to state the units of weights in dual measurement countries people have to suffer and die for that oversight. Why can't that happen in metric countries? Nobody dies in metric countries even if Drs. do forget to add kg. I let you work out why?

That answer referred to Martin’s example of sometimes deadly outcomes if dual measurements are used and your remedy that people should always state the units to avoid such problems.>>

Your part answer:
*You can never convert from one system to another without a transition period. And it is only during such a period that these errors would happen. If Britain hadn't tried to convert to metric, this would never have happened*.

My answer:
<<Yes, you can, and must, in certain circumstances! Doctors, aircraft controllers when it will revert back to metric, road signs, odometers, and many others.
But that was not the argument. I challenged your statement that mixing measurements is fine. What has your last sentence to do with my last question?>>
>>
Your answer:
*What have half the things you have said on this thread to do with what the thread is about?*

The thread started with your assertion that dual measurements pose no problem based on 1 iffy example. So where did I stray, please tell me.

Now let’s tackle your straying.

<<Antiquated is the right description for obsolete, outdated, superseded units and clarifies their status vis-a-vis modern metric units. >>

Your answer:
*Now do you see why people on this board lose patience with you? You are unable to see two sides of the argument. I have certain feelings about metric units, but I don't refer to them in such a manner because this is a discussion board, not an outlet for emotions. You know that people here may disagree with you (that is the whole point), so if you stated your argument in a decent and respectful manner then people would be more likely to listen. *

<<You are living in a dream world if you think anybody on this board, including you, sees both sides of the argument. If this would be case, what are we arguing about?
Any imperialist talking of emotion misses the point. Their defence can only be emotion based b/c logic is the basic ingredient missing in their system. How often have I asked you to answer that simple question: why is no metric country contemplating to switch back to antiquated measurements? And why have and do imperial countries change to metric? Please spare me your stock answer that people have been forced to use metric and now they like it. You have to do better than that, because it does not anwer the question why imperial countries are switching to metric.

It is in the mind of the beholder whether antiquated, obsolete and outdated means something derogative. For metric people these terms describe yesteryears measurements correctly. If you, and your fellow travellers find them offensive, tough luck, the truth does hurt sometimes.
You:
*Now do you see why people on this board……. *

<<I am not out to make friends, especially the ones you are referring to. Thank you for the advice, but please don’t bother. >>

I'm not going to go and reread this thread, because I haven't the time nor the motivation, but here are quick responses to a few things.
First, my German friend was quoting the temperature in each country as it is stated in that country. I doubt if he was trying to be friendly, show off, or whatever else anyone may come up with. And although Americans in general may be ignorant of Celsius, remember that this happened in a major university, in the engineering building. I think most people there know metric quite well.
Making an attempt to understand the other side of the story is essential to an intelligent discussion. This is a discussion, not an argument. Understanding the other viewpoint is different from accepting it. I'm not saying that I can always do understand it, but I do try.
When I said "Now do you see why people on this board...", I'm not trying to give you advice or single you out, I'm simply trying to turn this board into a mature discussion forum and eliminate some of the verbal bashing that we have seen recently.

I'm surprised eric didn't just use the "no he didn't" line when you mentioned that a German used degrees F ! He's brought up the inches-trousers thing on metricsucks again! (as "kilo")


BTW - I admire you Bud - for reading his post above you and making head or tail of it.

I tried to read it but it was so "cut-n-paste" and mixed about and with different quote meanings that I, probably like everyone else on either side of the argument, just gave up!

Considering the history of a post is there to see above our own posts - why the hell reproduce it in huge swathes? Unless one has absolutely no social life that is.....

Re: Germany April 15 2004, 7:26 AM


I'm not going to go and reread this thread, because I haven't the time nor the motivation, but here are quick responses to a few things.
First, my German friend was quoting the temperature in each country as it is stated in that country. I doubt if he was trying to be friendly, show off, or whatever else anyone may come up with. And although Americans in general may be ignorant of Celsius, remember that this happened in a major university, in the engineering building. I think most people there know metric quite well.
Making an attempt to understand the other side of the story is essential to an intelligent discussion. This is a discussion, not an argument. Understanding the other viewpoint is different from accepting it. I'm not saying that I can always do understand it, but I do try.
When I said "Now do you see why people on this board...", I'm not trying to give you advice or single you out, I'm simply trying to turn this board into a mature discussion forum and eliminate some of the verbal bashing that we have seen recently.


metre:
I have to disappoint you. Not much what you said so far was all that intelligent. You have your standard phrases that prove in your mind that you are right and that's about it. As to seeing the imperialistic point, I do my friend, I really do and it only confirms what humanity in general thinks about.

Metre,
I thought you supported the metric system? I now see in many of your threads support for inch-pound. Please clarify.

I am reaponding to the following exchange of 4 days ago (sorry but I've only just picked it up)

<<Mixing temp scales April 12 2004, 9:27 PM


I reflect here on posts above that condone F scale for warm/hot and C for cold.

I've never known such crass stipidity and contrived arguments to justify obtuseness.

Bryan Parry

Re: Germany April 13 2004, 1:10 AM


Riiiiiight..... CONGRATULATIONS!! You have just succesfully insulted most of the British nation.
>>

REPLY:
If I have insulted anyone it is those in one of the following categories:

(a) Those on this forum pretending that it is somehow OK or even virtous to mix C/F

(b) Much of the British media who are totally inconsistent as to which scale they use and sensationalise weather reports to:
(i) dramatise warm weather with large positive numbers (e.g 100 F last year)
(ii) dramatise cold snaps with large negative numbers in C

In my experience this is not typical of ordinary folks in the UK! I seldom hear talk of F these days in everyday conversation.

(i)

"I seldom hear talk of F in conversation these days"


You should listen harder.

...but wait a couple of months first


;-)

BWMA

METRE
I tought you supported the metric system? I now see in many of your threads support for inch- pound. Please explain.

Don't fall for everything you read.

In other words, metre is admitting that he lies a lot on these boards.

....not just this board

<<
"I seldom hear talk of F in conversation these days"


You should listen harder.
>>

It is a plain fact that in my experience I find that F (in UK) is dying out.

It appears to "die out" each winter!

BTW- check out the radio stations - they tend to always do the "F-word" (except LBC who recently changed).

Try a local BBC radio station (I get ldn or berks)