Believe it or not - Euric (who now calls himself "Carlyle") has posted some excellent news on the metricsucks website!
I'll reproduce his carnage after my comments.
But this is the best opportunity I believe that the BWMA have had for YEARS!
Apparently the metric-fanatics are going on a big publicity drive!
Headed by?
Guess?
Yup! Geoffrey Howe!
I wouldn't be suprised if they had Neil Kinnock as their "person in charge of senserity!"
So what do you think, BWMA? An opportunity is begging here!
My first thoughts go along the line of not being able to polish a certain substance or Lenny Henry advising about the benefits of supporting the BNP!
(oh and get this, for a final laugh - "euric" entitles this: "Great News - The battle is about to begin")
Here goes:
=========================
Press Release
8 July 2004
http://www.ukma.org.uk/
A Very British Mess
Metric campaign launched to end British measurements mess
London, 8 July 2004. An all-party campaign has been launched to end the
confusing muddle of different weights and measures (metric and imperial) used
in Britain. At a press conference chaired by Lord Howe, the former
Conservative Deputy Prime Minister, the UK Metric Association (UKMA)
announced the publication of its report “A very British mess”.
UKMA’s report details the muddle and indecision which has saddled Britain with
two incompatible sets of measurements – metres and feet, kilos and pounds,
litres and pints, kilowatts and horsepower. The report exposes the myths
which have been spread by opponents of the metric system and argues that it
would be in Britain’s interest to complete the changeover to exclusive use of
metric units as soon as possible – with a target date of 2009.
Lord Howe, Britain’s first Consumer Affairs Minister in the 1970s, commented:
“Plainly we can’t stay where we are, with two confused, competing systems.
Magna Carta endorsed the need for only one set of standards. And it would be
madness to go backwards. The only solution is to complete the changeover to
metric – and as swiftly and cleanly as possible.”
The report points out that the changeover to metric was started in 1965 (long
before Britain entered the Common Market), and that the slow progress and
continuing opposition has been due to the failure of successive governments
to attempt to justify the change or educate the public. It calls on the
government to publicly declare its support for completing the change as soon
as possible phase out imperial measures for all official purposes (including
on road signs) end dual pricing and labelling in all shops and markets
carry out proper campaigns of public education
UKMA hopes that the publication of its report will be a signal to responsible
opinion-formers in industry and commerce, the professions, the academic
world, politics and the media to put their heads above the parapet and state
publicly that the present nonsense has gone on long enough, and that it is
time to complete the change that was begun 39 years ago.
Robin Paice, Chairman of UKMA, commented: “Of course we understand why some
politicians are nervous of this issue, but most people realise that we have
to go through with the changeover. It will cause some grumbling, of course,
but, as with decimalisation of the currency in 1971, not long after the
change, people will wonder what all the fuss was about. So for goodness sake,
let’s get it over with!”
Market traders who still sell in pounds and ounces are set to be blitzed in enforcement campaign this summer.
The Local Authorities Coordinators of Regulatory Services is encouraging trading standards departments to "recommence their enforcement of metrication regulations".
It said many local authorities had been justifiably cautious in their approach to the enforcement until the outcome of the appeal was known, but were now free to deal with offences "in an appropriate manner with full confidence in UK law".
This forum is supposed to be a platform for debate about measurment in either metric or Imperial.
It is not a forum for discussing campaign strategy.
In any case you would be well advised not to apply your forum tactics to an actual public campaign. You will only discredit it.
Evil Engineer
Re: Excellent opportunity, BWMA!!!
July 8 2004, 8:14 PM
It was nice to see the bog standard anti-metric quote from Neil Herron on that last link.
"The day you get people to say they watched a 1.9-metre tall footballer score from five metres....blah....blah.....blah !"
All that was missing was something about tradition and some guff about imperial being "natural".
Talk about sounding like a stuck record !
Tony Bennett
Defining Moment
July 8 2004, 11:37 PM
Without doubt, 8 July 2004 has become a key moment in the long campaign by our current political masters to exterminate customary measurements. The press release that SteveH has posted is quite sinister, especially the reference to the claimed 'All-Party Alliance'.
I would like to respectfully and publicly suggest to the Forum Owner and leaders of BWMA that they convene a Committee meeting urgently to discuss this development and, hopefully, emerge with a similar 'All-Party' campaign to *preserve* British weights and measures. In such a campaign, BWMA would have public opinion massively on its side, as the nine major independent surveys carried out over the past eight years have shown. The BWMA should also urgently issue a considered report replying to the UKMA's report.
It must be remembered that Lord Howe led the Conservative cabal which stabbed Margaret Thatcher in the back soon after she signalled 'No, No, No' to the E.U.'s plans to completely remove British independence.
Below, interleaved, are some comments of mine on the press release.
"Metric campaign launched to end British measurements mess. London, 8 July 2004. An all-party campaign has been launched to end the confusing muddle of different weights and measures (metric and imperial) used in Britain".
COMMENT: Is it 'All-Party'? Is the eradication of British weights and measures now the official policy of the Conservative, 'Liberal Democrat' and Labour Parties? I've never seen it in one of their manifestos that they put before the electorate when seeking their votes
"At a press conference chaired by Lord Howe, the former Conservative Deputy Prime Minister, the UK Metric Association (UKMA) announced the publication of its report “A very British mess”. UKMA’s report details the muddle and indecision which has saddled Britain with two incompatible sets of measurements – metres and feet, kilos and pounds, litres and pints, kilowatts and horsepower. The report exposes the myths which have been spread by opponents of the metric system..."
COMMENT: I look forward to seeing a complete list of those alleged 'myths'. A bit like Blair's list of 'euro-myths' which he blames on the 'eurosceptic press'. Like the 'myth' that the European Union is progressively removing Britain's independence (!)
"...and argues that it would be in Britain’s interest to complete the changeover to exclusive use of metric units as soon as possible – with a target date of 2009".
COMMENT: By what means? Using what legislation? Forcing pizza shop owners to sell pizzas in centimetres, forcing house sellers to say how many metres long their garden is, by requiring mothers to send out cards to relatives giving their babies' weights in kilograms? I look forward to examining UKMA's detailed proposals for achieving their version of 'nirvana' for Britain
"Lord Howe, Britain’s first Consumer Affairs Minister in the 1970s, commented: 'Plainly we can’t stay where we are, with two confused, competing systems. Magna Carta endorsed the need for only one set of standards'".
COMMENT: 'Standards', not 'measurements', as the BWMA Forum Owner has correctly pointed out elsewhere
"...it would be madness to go backwards".
COMMENT: They'd better hurry up and write to high class estate agents Knight Frank who recently completely abandoned measurements in square metres because no-one uses them any more (see another thread on this bulletin board)
"The only solution is to complete the changeover to metric – and as swiftly and cleanly as possible".
COMMENT: The 'swift and clean' solution - the 'final solution' perhaps? The words 'Hitler' and 'Stalin' spring to mind
"The report points out that the changeover to metric was started in 1965 (long before Britain entered the Common Market)..."
COMMENT: Harold Wilson did a deal with the European political elite in 1963. He would decimalise our currency - completely unnecessarily - and then they would (on our third attempt) admit us to the Common Market. And thus it came to pass
"...and that the slow progress and continuing opposition has been due to the failure of successive governments to attempt to justify the change or educate the public".
COMMENT: Or may be due to the British people's instinctive preference for a tried-and-tested and familiar system of weights and measures?
"It calls on the government to publicly declare its support for completing the change..."
COMMENT *The* change? What change? Surely *loads of changes* would be needed. I'd love to see the legislation which bans Burger King from selling 'quarterpounders' and bans restaurants from selling 8oz. steaks. And the legislation proposing to spend £1 billion-plus of taxpayers' money converting Britain's 2 million or so road signs with distances, dimensions or speedd limits on them should be fascinating
"...as soon as possible phase out imperial measures for all official purposes (including
on road signs)..."
COMMENT: Come, come, now, UKMA, that's not terribly democratic, is it? - given that around 90% of all people want us to stay with miles, yards, feet and inches [ICM Survey, April 2002]
"...end dual pricing and labelling in all shops and markets carry out proper campaigns of public education..."
COMMENT: 'Now today's lesson, children, is about how *naughty* it is to use those awful, nasty Imperial (spit) measurements. Put your hands up if your Mummy or Daddy still has a 12-inch ruler in the house...'
"UKMA hopes that the publication of its report will be a signal to responsible opinion-formers in industry and commerce, the professions, the academic world, politics and the media to put their heads above the parapet and state publicly that the present nonsense has gone on long enough, and that it is time to complete the change that was begun 39 years ago".
COMMENT: That should be about as effective as the same bunch of people in Denmark and Sweden telling the Danes and the Swedes to give up their currencies and the Swiss being advised to join the European Union [they rejected this by 78% to 22% in a recent nationwide referendum]
"Robin Paice, Chairman of UKMA, commented: “Of course we understand why some politicians are nervous of this issue, but most people realise that we have to go through with the changeover".
COMMENT: What evidence is there for that statement? Nine recent public opinion surveys show the contrary
"It will cause some grumbling, of course, but, as with decimalisation of the currency in 1971, not long after the change, people will wonder what all the fuss was about. So for goodness sake, let’s get it over with!”
COMMENT: Probably something similar to what Stalin said before he murdered between 10 and 30 million Russian people to push through his Communist 'reform' agenda
Re: Excellent opportunity, BWMA!!!
July 9 2004, 1:30 AM
Just listening to BBC 103 MW radio a few mins ago, and there was this UKMA woman talking a load of rubbish on it. BWMA, any plans for a new surge of Imperial support?
Evil Engineer
Re: Excellent opportunity, BWMA!!!
July 11 2004, 4:42 PM
In response to Tony’s comments I would like to respond as follows:
The “mess” was created by the Tories who halted the metrication process part way through and left everyone in a measurement no-man’s land.
UKMA’s report contains a list of nine “myths which have been spread by opponents of the metric system”. I assume Tony read the report before launching his broadside. If Tony thinks that these myths are actually facts I look forward to seeing his reasoning.
Making silly comments about requiring “mothers to send out cards to relatives giving their babies’ weights in kilograms” is a cynical attempt to try and emotionalize the issue. Despite what Tony thinks, nobody is suggesting introducing the “thought police”.
Pizza sellers, home sellers (or estate agents) and restaurants CAN be made to use metric because these measurements are used as trade descriptions and therefore form part of the contract between buyer and seller. This has always been subject to the law and the law has always stated which units of measure are permitted and which are not for these purposes.
It is impossible to have “one set of standards” with two sets of mutually exclusive measurements!
The wants of “Knight Frank and high class estate agents” are pretty far down the list of priorities for UK plc when compared with the needs of industry, science and engineering which would not change back to imperial even if given the choice.
Comparing metrication, and presumably its advocates, to the worst mass murderers the world has ever seen is not only bizarre but highly offensive. Comments like this only make one person look like an extremist.
Was the “Metric Weights and Measures Act 1864” part of the EU conspiracy as well? What about the numerous reports and recommendations to go metric stretching back 150 years?
Where on earth did you get that figure of £1 billion to change 2 millions signs from? That’s £500 a sign! At least be realistic.
All that opinion polls have show is that people will use the measurements that they’ve used in the past (a big surprise there, then). This doesn’t automatically mean that they will take to the streets to defend imperial or that they could not be persuaded that a change is desirable. Not everybody sees it as a life or death issue and is prepared to go out and physically alter “offending” signage in the wee hours of the morning. The UKMA report makes repeated reference to the need to talk to the general public and to get them on board. It’s called politics and it’s a lack of any serious debate over the last thirty years that has helped to get us into the current situation.
Tony is showing his age by making reference to the “completely unnecessary” decimalization of our currency. Should we return to pounds schillings and pence at the same time we de-metricate ?
Re: Excellent opportunity, BWMA!!!
July 12 2004, 6:32 AM
<<
The “mess” was created by the Tories who halted the metrication process part way through and left everyone in a measurement no-man’s land.
>>
So if all railroads use gauge A, and someone comes along and introduces gauge B, and those using gauge A refuse to switch, who caused the mess?
<<
Making silly comments about requiring “mothers to send out cards to relatives giving their babies’ weights in kilograms” is a cynical attempt to try and emotionalize the issue. Despite what Tony thinks, nobody is suggesting introducing the “thought police”.
>>
You can't introduce thought police into a democracy in one shot. It has to be done slowly, one tiny step at a time. Only then will you be able to do it without people resisting.
<<
Pizza sellers, home sellers (or estate agents) and restaurants CAN be made to use metric because these measurements are used as trade descriptions and therefore form part of the contract between buyer and seller. This has always been subject to the law and the law has always stated which units of measure are permitted and which are not for these purposes.
>>
But the law has never prohibited units that people are comfortable with without a valid reason. In the past, this law has been used to clean up measurement confusion and ensure fairness. This would be the first time units would be removed from the permitted list for any other reason.
<<
It is impossible to have “one set of standards” with two sets of mutually exclusive measurements!
>>
Mutually exclusive? Please explain. By the way, America does exactly that.
<<
Was the “Metric Weights and Measures Act 1864” part of the EU conspiracy as well? What about the numerous reports and recommendations to go metric stretching back 150 years?
>>
You can't believe everything the government writes into a report.
<<
Where on earth did you get that figure of £1 billion to change 2 millions signs from? That’s £500 a sign! At least be realistic.
>>
A while ago, on the International forum, there was a thread regarding the US interstate system giving a figure of $1 million as the cost of changing all the signs on a short highway. I forget how long it was, but it wasn't that long. Remember that in an industrialised country most of the cost would be for labor, not materials. Also account for planning, logistics, public awareness campaigns, etc. Remember that it would have to be done all at once in order to avoid confusion resulting from half the signs being in one system and half in another. Workers would probably therefore have to work longer hours.
<<
The UKMA report makes repeated reference to the need to talk to the general public and to get them on board. It’s called politics and it’s a lack of any serious debate over the last thirty years that has helped to get us into the current situation.
>>
The lack of serious debate is because people don't care. The reason the government has been so slow to act is because there is no pressure on them. The reason there is no pressure is because no one wants the change, or sees any need for the change. Only a few activists are pressing the government to spend money to do something that neither industry nor the people want.
<<
Tony is showing his age by making reference to the “completely unnecessary” decimalization of our currency. Should we return to pounds schillings and pence at the same time we de-metricate ?
>>
Like you said yourself, people like to keep the system they have. We shouldn't return to pounds and schillings because that would require another changeover. There is no compelling reason to change. There never was a compelling reason to decimalise in the first place. Changing back wouldn't undo the problems caused by the first change, it would simply cause them all over again.
Re: Excellent opportunity, BWMA!!!
July 12 2004, 10:12 AM
Good post Bud, but I have to say this: it is spelt 'shilling' :D :P
Council of ARM
Metrication on the Radio
July 12 2004, 11:22 AM
We're pleased to report that our Secretary Tony Bennett has recently been invited to appear on two radio interviews. He was on live for about 6 minutes on BBC Three Counties Radio on Friday (Bedfordshire, Buckinghamshire and Hertfordshire) and this morning he was again on live on Radio Milton Keynes for about 10 minutes.
On each occasion he was able to wrong-foot the interviewer by emphasising the persistence of usage of British weights and measures in the culture, and citing the independent opinion poll survey evidence that British weights and measures are preferred by a large majority across all age groups
Tony Bennett
Reply to 'Evil Engineer'
July 12 2004, 12:01 PM
re (Evil Engineer): "In response to Tony’s comments I would like to respond as follows:
RE: "The 'mess' was created by the Tories who halted the metrication process part way through and left everyone in a measurement no-man’s land".
COMMENT: Yes, because there was no popular support for further metrication. That's democracy. No political party has ever referred to compulsory metrication in their manifestos, therefore the whole process of metrication has been done without public consent as opinion poll surveys clearly and repeatedly show
RE: "UKMA’s report contains a list of nine 'myths which have been spread by opponents of the metric system'. I assume Tony read the report before launching his broadside. If Tony thinks that these myths are actually facts I look forward to seeing his reasoning".
COMMENT: I don't need to have read the UKMA report in detail because I know it recommends further metric enforcement with criminal penalties and I am opposed to that. But, by all means, let's have the nine alleged 'myths' posted on this website and let's debate them publicly [Memo to BWMA Forum Owner - are you able, please, to post a summary of these nine alleged 'myths'?]
RE: "Pizza sellers, home sellers (or estate agents) and restaurants CAN be made to use metric because these measurements are used as trade descriptions and therefore form part of the contract between buyer and seller. This has always been subject to the law and the law has always stated which units of measure are permitted and which are not for these purposes".
COMMENT: As Bud says, who apart from about a dozen metric zealots actually *wants* pizza sizes or room sizes in centimetres?
RE: "Comparing metrication, and presumably its advocates, to the worst mass murderers the world has ever seen is not only bizarre but highly offensive. Comments like this only make one person look like an extremist".
COMMENT: If you analyse the UKMA comment, it is just the sort of thing that tyrants the world over say when they wish to impose something against the people's wishes. I remember being at a public neighbourhood meeting in Old Harlow a couple of years ago, and that meeting democratically decided that a certain planning application should be refused, to the obvious frustration of the Labour Councillors for the ward. 'Democracy is getting in the way' was the public comment of one of the Councillors
RE: "Was the 'Metric Weights and Measures Act 1864' part of the EU conspiracy as well?"
COMMENT: NO, becaue it *allowed* metric units to be used in certain circumstances but did not *impose* them
RE: "Where on earth did you get that figure of £1 billion to change 2 millions signs from? That’s £500 a sign! At least be realistic".
COMMENT: Bud has given a very thorough answer to this. A huge amount of time and expense would need to be found to implement the necessary legislation, time and expense which could be far better spent on something *necessary* rather than to please a dozen metric zealots. Each separate 'Imperial' distance would have to be converted to metric - some signs have six or more distances on them. Many signs need mini-cranes to erect, dismantle them or amend them - like on all the bridges.
It would be a monumental effort to change all those signs over a weekend - and the process cannot be done piecemeal, for that would create confusion, as the Department for Transport itself fully concedes. The exercise planned for Ireland next month is of a much, much lower scale
RE: "All that opinion polls have show is that people will use the measurements that they’ve used in the past (a big surprise there, then)..."
COMMENT: No, they show much more than that. For example, in one very recent survey, 98% of the public said that they could estimate their height in feet and inches, against just 29% who could do so in metric. This despite over 3 decades of compulsory metric education! For what valid purpose is it actually worth embarking on still more legislation, compulsion, criminalisation and further public education programmes, simply to force people to abandon something they're perfectly comfortable with?
You, Evil Engineer, want to spend the public's time, money and energy to obliterate the use of Imperial measurements - to 'snuff out' their use. Why?
SteveH
Re: Excellent opportunity, BWMA!!!
July 12 2004, 12:36 PM
Engineer: "The day you get people to say they watched a 1.9-metre tall footballer score from five metres....blah....blah.....blah !"
What's wrong with using relevent and real information?
BTW - we're all forgetting something here...
The UKMA is a pathetic has-been from the past.
Hmmm, sort of describes Geoffrey Howe too!
Re: Excellent opportunity, BWMA!!!
July 13 2004, 5:41 AM
That's what I thought too, but then I thought I must be wrong because in the post above mine, in the last line, it was spelled with a C.