OK, it's late at night but I appear to have been accepted to the board.

I've had a few glasses of wine (didn't measure any of them) so excuse any errors!

OK, I posted with regard to
http://www.bwmaonline.com/International%20-%20US%20packaging

I posted

"The above page is misleading. It refers to use of "British" measurements, yet at least 3 (if not 4) of the pictures shown only have American or a mixture of American & metric measurements.
The examples I refer to are: -
Vegetable (Oil?) 48 fl oz (1 qt 1 pt) 1.42 litres
In the UK, 48 fl oz = 1.36 litres approx
1 qt 1 pt = 1.7 litres approx

Shampoo 15 fl oz 444ml
In the UK, 15 fl oz = 426ml

Medicine 4 fl oz
I would guess that this refers to a quarter of a US pint rather than 114ml approx

Medicine (antihistamine) 10 fl oz 296ml
In the UK, 10 fl oz = 284ml

Would BWMA like to comment on their support for introducing a 3rd measurement system into the UK?"

I then got a misleading reply from "Carlyle". SteveH suggested I post here

If anyone wants to see the whole correspondence, try http://www.bwmaonline.com/International%20-%20US%20packaging.htm on the "questions to BWMA" site.

I had hoped to start a debate on US/UK units - I was deliberately argumentative to try to start it off. If BWMA considers that provocative, I apologise now. The real question is further down the thread.

My point is that US measurements are now starting to replace UK imperial measurements on goods for sale in the UK for liquid measure. I feel that this is not a good idea. I am pro metric, but feel that any supplementary indication should be in UK measurement units and that any mention of different definitions of liquid measure should be clearly marked on packaging (ie 1 US pint)

I would look forward to informed debate (and more of the ROTFL replies - some things on here are hilarious) with other posters.

Let's not descend to Metric Sucks levels..... but

SteveH, Bryan..... Meet your match.....

You might work out where I'm from - I've spoken with Bryan before. If any of you are ever up here, I'll buy one pint (cider for both of you - isn't it?) for you for every 70ml of Springbank you buy me.....

Lets get ready to rumble.......









please accept the last 3 or 4 paragraphs as a joke rather than a challenge!!!!!!!!!!!

Scared now.....

Back on Sunday - look forward to replies....

Hello
please accept the last 3 or 4 paragraphs as a joke rather than a challenge!!!!!!!!!!!

Scared now.....

Back on Sunday - look forward to replies....

metre:
Welcome on board.

Well there's the kiss of death if I ever saw one!

Beringer
I hope you read my opinion on the UK/US measurement thing on the "front" board. But I'll add more here. Personally I wish the US and UK could have agreed to one set of units, perhaps the problem with metric creeping in would not be so prelevent if the US/UK system were identical.
I guess "back in those days" there was not real international trade going on thus it wasn't important.

<<My point is that US measurements are now starting to replace UK imperial measurements on goods for sale in the UK for liquid measure>>

This is only the case for hair products and "smellies". Personally the difference in measures is minimal enough not to have any great impact on satisfaction or use of the product.
All other measures (pints mainly) are UK varients.

<<I am pro metric, but feel that any supplementary indication should be in UK measurement units>>

I totally agree with the sentiment of that.

<<You might work out where I'm from - I've spoken with Bryan before. If any of you are ever up here>>

No I haven't worked out where you are from, but I will guess from the "up here" and the reference to Springbank that you might be from Scortland (note my clever accent there).

Thanks for yor question. The page in question does not refer to the units as British but as English, which is the American term for US units. BWMA has no objection to US units on goods sold in the UK.

Berenger,. I genuinely have no idea who you are. If you'ld please to e-mail me with your identity, I would be most glad.. :D

Re: Hello July 29 2004, 8:50 PM

BWMA:
Thanks for yor question. The page in question does not refer to the units as British but as English, which is the American term for US units. BWMA has no objection to US units on goods sold in the UK.

metre:
Any further complication of an already complicated system seems welcome to prop up an archaic and doomed system.

Is there a mosquitto in here?

Forum Owner wrote

<<
BWMA has no objection to US units on goods sold in the UK.
>>

So Forum owner would happily see people being ripped off by having products displayong quantities in US gallons when the law in the UK (before 1995) stated that the only gallons that could be used for commercial purposes were Imperial gallons.

The litre is international - it is the same in the UK as it is in the US, in Germany, in France, in Boliva or anywhere else in the world (apart from possibly its spelling).

If a private party wishes to express information to another private party, eg the quantity of an item in US gallons, then they should be free to do so. So long as the indication is accurate, no-one is being "ripped off".

Another board member- I can't remember who or when- suggested having a unified US/UK fluidounce AND marking products only in fluidounes (so as to avoid confusion). On one hand I do not like this idea, on the other hand it might not be so bad, as pints, quarts etc were just standard container sizes, and containers now are not really standard in the same way.


*mentions his own 1.728cuin fluidounce & 1.75cuin fluidounce ideas*

re (martin): "the litre is international..."

REPLY: Well, bully for the litre

The fact that the Litre is International is definitely worth acclamation. So quite right Tony for your cheers.

The point is that there are no regional variants of the Litre. It is defined and ratified in SI as the volume of a cubic dm. Similarly the metre (on which it is based, unlike the pint which has no proper connection to cubic measure)has the same universal status.

This cannot be said of the pint, gallon or fl oz. They are always open to mistakes or incertainty. And when US manufacturers don't bother to qualify these units on packaging, well what do you expect?

Forum Owner wrote

<<
If a private party wishes to express information to another private party, eg the quantity of an item in US gallons, then they should be free to do so.
>>

A communication to the public in general is *NOT*, repeat *NOT* a communication to a private party, it is a public announcement. When will the BMWA realise this.

re (Stan): "The point is that there are no regional variants of the litre..."

REPLY: Terrible thing, all 'regional variants'. Let's get rid of them, say I

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENCH!!!!!!!!!!!

So let me get this straight... BWMA has no objection to a store in the UK selling a US gallon of milk and labelling it "one gallon?"

Martin,
The word "private" in the above context means "not government". If someone sets up a shop, that is private enterprise. If they sell to the "public", it is still "private". If you are a member of the general public, you are still a private individual.
If a private individual running a shop communicates to the public, that is a private communication. So long as they are not misleading the other party, it is not the state's concern. We are not "owned" by the state. The state is funded by private taxes to regulate us for the greater good; that does not make the state or the people that run it more important than the private citizen. We are all equal under the law.

Bud,
It would have to be labelled "US gallon", as it is a different unit to the UK gallon.

Forum Owner writes

<<
If a private individual running a shop communicates to the public, that is a private communication.
>>

I notice that Forum owner writes about a "shop". If the shop is in The City of London or if it is a recognised market, then the law of "Market Overt" applies. (See http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m086.htm). The most important feature of the law of "Market Overt" is that ownership of the goods purchased passed to the buyer (provided that the buyer bought them in good faith) even if the seller had obtained the goods dishonestly. One of the conditions of the law of "Market Overt" is that "The market must be open so that members of the public can see what is going on" (Extracted from "You and Your Rights - Readers Digest". In such cases the transaction cannot be private.

Responses to various points above

SteveH - "This is only the case for hair products and "smellies"."
Other place I've seen it was on beer (close to all our hearts) - 500ml = 1pint 1 and a bit fluid ounces marked on a bottle. No mention of US pints/fl. oz. at all.
As I've previously stated, I have no problem with supplementary indications, but feel they should be in accordance with our definitions or clearly defined as "US fluid ounces" or similar.

SteveH - "Springbank" - You obviously know your whiskies - It's the best - but not very well known. Only available in metric bottles though.....

BWMA - "BWMA has no objection to US units on goods sold in the UK."
Got to say that I have to disagree with your viewpoint on this. I thought BWMA existed to promote "British" W&M? Are you seriously suggesting that you are happy with a product for sale in the UK to be labelled in 2 non-British systems and no UK equivalent?

Bryan - I sent you a couple of emails from work re good articles on history of both imperial & metric when you were looking for original copy of WMA'63 - will email you if that doesn't jog your memory

BWMA - "If a private party wishes to express information to another private party, eg the quantity of an item in US gallons, then they should be free to do so. So long as the indication is accurate, no-one is being ripped off."
Can I get back to you tomorrow with a relevant Scots Appeal Case which I can't remember the name of at the moment?

Tony Bennett - "Terrible thing, all 'regional variants'. Let's get rid of them, say I"
Yes Tony, I'm sure you support this - within "Little England" (If that comment is too strong, I apologise now & will happily accept editing!)
How big a region are you meaning - Do you support reintroducing the old Scots Pound in Scotland? Should every town in England have its own definition of measures?

Bud - "So let me get this straight... BWMA has no objection to a store in the UK selling a US gallon of milk and labelling it "one gallon?"
Even one of the pro-imperials seems surprised at BWMA's reaction!

I'm pleasantly surprised at the viewpoints that my question has raised. A couple of answers weren't quite as I might have expected! Nice for us to be thinking rather than namecalling.....

As I said before, was away for the weekend - will try not to respond to 10 replies at once again.....

Re: Hello July 31 2004, 9:14 AM


BWMA:
If a private party wishes to express information to another private party, eg the quantity of an item in US gallons, then they should be free to do so. So long as the indication is accurate, no-one is being "ripped off".

metre:
Ever wondered why governments and people insist on measurement laws?

I think there is some confusion about the word "private." It has 2 definitions according to my dictionary. One is basically something individual, that is restricted to one person or class, and does not involve outsiders. The other is something non-government related. Since the government does not participate in most shop transactions, by the second definition these transactions would be private. So the question becomes: do these transactions involve a restricted group or the community at large? Since there is one buyer and one seller, it is a private transaction. Saying that there are many potential buyers, which amounts to the general public being a potential buyer, is really stretching it.

Bud,

You obviously did not look up my reference concernign "Market Overt". The last sentence says something to the effect that the concept of "market OVert" is unknown [legally] in the US". We are dealing about the UK.

<<<<<<<<<<The word "private" in the above context means "not government". If someone sets up a shop, that is private enterprise. If they sell to the "public", it is still "private". If you are a member of the general public, you are still a private individual.
If a private individual running a shop communicates to the public, that is a private communication. So long as they are not misleading the other party, it is not the state's concern. We are not "owned" by the state. The state is funded by private taxes to regulate us for the greater good; that does not make the state or the people that run it more important than the private citizen. We are all equal under the law.>>>>>>>

It IS the state's concern to specify the units of measurement used. Always has been (well, since magna carta I believe)

The regulations apply to the scales used to weigh the goods and the way the product is advertised. Outside that, you can use any units you like.

Enforcing a standard system of measurements in trade is a basic responsibility of the state. It hardly means we are owned by the state!

What Bud says refers to the UK as much as the US. In democracies, the government regulates the private sector; it does not consume it. That is what happens in places such as Communist Romania, Nazi Germany or Saddam Hussein's Iraq, where people are not entitled to private life. The state is all.

The point about the metric mentality, whether represented by the UKMA, the DTI or the EC, is that they say things like "We are going metric", referring to millions of people as though people are not capable or expected to have differing views. "We" refers to people as one bloc, that can have no diversity or personality or self-expression.

Thus, a private trade between seller and buyer is now rendered "public", so private thoughts can no longer be expressed.

Andy,
You are totally missing the point. We are not talking about units used in trade.
We are talking about additional information that is expressed privately, in this case US gallons.

<<<<<<<<<<<<The point about the metric mentality, whether represented by the UKMA, the DTI or the EC, is that they say things like "We are going metric", referring to millions of people as though people are not capable or expected to have differing views. "We" refers to people as one bloc, that can have no diversity or personality or self-expression.

Thus, a private trade between seller and buyer is now rendered "public", so private thoughts can no longer be expressed.>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I simply cannot see how the regulation of the way prices are displayed is 'private'

And how can you claim that private thoughts cannot be expressed? You make it sound as if it will become illegal to talk in imperial!

<<<<<You are totally missing the point. We are not talking about units used in trade.
We are talking about additional information that is expressed privately, in this case US gallons.>>>>>>>

I'm not missing the point. I just disagree with your definitions of 'private' and 'public' If something is on display to EVERY customer then I don't see how it is private.

Because it is precisely that: information displayed by private sellers to private consumers. These private consumers are also part of the general "public". Same difference.
What we are NOT talking about is information regulated by the state or government or public SECTOR.

Obsolescence July 31 2004, 9:51 PM

TB:
re (Stan): "The point is that there are no regional variants of the litre..."

REPLY: Terrible thing, all 'regional variants'. Let's get rid of them, say I


metre;
This is a typical imperial answer. If imperial would be as simple and up to date as metric this debate would never take place. To change something inferior for the better has never diminished diversity, or as you put it 'regional variants'.

Martin,

You have based your argument that a transaction in a shop is public on a sentence from the Market Overt which you state as follows.

"The market must be open so that members of the public can see what is going on"

This sentence requires sellers to be transparent about their goods and practices, so that buyers have all the information.
Can you explain how a transaction becomes "public" just because the Market Overt says it has to be "open?"

Beringer: "Other place I've seen it was on beer (close to all our hearts) - 500ml = 1pint 1 and a bit fluid ounces marked on a bottle. No mention of US pints/fl. oz. at all."

I have NEVER seen this.
It must be an american import or something.
The only tinned booze I've seen is 440ml. 500ml or 1 Pint cans.

But then I don't consume American booze, preferring to stab myself in the eye with a pencil instead.

Note, btw, how the troll gets totally ignored when a real good argument is in flow?

<<Note, btw, how the troll gets totally ignored when a real good argument is in flow?>>

D'OH !!!!!!

Can we leave references to trolls out of discussions, please.

Indeed.

But it would also help if some people didn't act as such.

It gets totally in the way of good debate.

Yes, although I think of 440ml as 15.5floz. I have seen tins of soft drink marked in US as well as UK floz.

re (metre): "To change something inferior for the better has never diminished diversity, or as you put it 'regional variants'..."


REPLY: I'm pretty sure it was Lenin (or maybe Trotsky) who said that back in 1917. Or it may have been Mao Tse-Tung in 1969.

Anyway, re: "To change something inferior for the better...", who was it who objected to 'claiming the moral high ground'?

Beer that I saw was from Scotland marked in ml for UK/Europe but in US pints/fl oz for export to USA.

Agree totally re US beer/poking in eye with pencil comparison. Off topic, but does anyone else think that Grolsch/Castlemaine/Bud/Michelob etc should be brewed in London? If its a poor beer, we should at least be tasting the real thing rather than a UK imitation - look for things like "Brewed in the UK" in adverts....

OK, today's rant is over!

Back on topic, forgot to bring appeal case (mentioned above) home - will try to remember it tomorrow....

'To change something for the better is right' - Confucius he say August 3 2004, 8:03 PM


re (metre): "To change something inferior for the better has never diminished diversity, or as you put it 'regional variants'..."

TB:
REPLY: I'm pretty sure it was Lenin (or maybe Trotsky) who said that back in 1917. Or it may have been Mao Tse-Tung in 1969.

Anyway, re: "To change something inferior for the better...", who was it who objected to 'claiming the moral high ground'?

metre:
Moral high ground? For god's sake we talk about an inferior measuring system not ethics.

Personally I don't see metric as inferior at all.

How can one be better or worse?

Or perhaps that litre of fuel *IS* inferior to the gallon?

Stupid argument.

Tr......

..


..

must - not - say


-

the word

..

.

SteveH wrote

<<
Or perhaps that litre of fuel *IS* inferior to the gallon?
>>

I did not know that Steve had a knowledge of Italian. The Italian word "inferior" means "less than", and one litre is certainly less than one gallon it is about 0.22 gallons!

Maybe eric/metre was right after all.

Blimey