Did you know that measurements can co-exist with each other whereas currencies cannot?

I wonder though,

Can we stop using the "I've lost the argument - I think I'll throw in something about the decimalisationm of currency to salvage my case" argument?

Then we on the pro-imp and pro-choice side promise never to mention that the pro-metrics use a non metric measurement all day long :-

"Time"

Oh bother! Its 70 minutes past 93.

I'm 3 kilominutes late for my meeing....

(SteveH whispers to himself on the way to the meeting: "anthropcentricity", "anthropcentricity", "anthropcentricity", must say "anthropcentricity")

decimalisation is extremely relevant as an example of where the government changes something for the benefit of the people - but where the people do not realise the benefits until afterwards.

Metric can co-exist with non-metric as manifestly it does. But that doesn't mean it is wise to allow it.

Arguments about freedom to choose are bogus. When we have dual measures we all have to know both. No one has a real choice.

I agree with Andy, the analogy with a mixed currency is valid in arguing the case for a single system of measurement.

re (Andy): "...people do not realise the benefitt [of decimal currency or the metric system] until afterwards"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

REPLY: This article (below) from (whoops!) The Daily Telegraph shows what one of the key effects of the 1971 decimalisation was - and the introduction of the euro - serious inflation and ordinary folk, especially pensioners, being ripped off:

_____________________________________
Euro pushes shop prices up 10 per cent
The Telegraph - 24 Aug 2002
By Harry de Quetteville in Paris and Nicola Woolcock

The introduction of the euro has pushed up weekly shopping bills for the average French household by 10 per cent, the country's biggest consumer association said yesterday.

After one of the largest surveys into the impact of the single currency on prices, the French Consumer Union (UFC) alleged that the cost of some fresh goods had more than doubled.

Shampoo, soap and beauty products had increased by 40 per cent.

The findings will startle not only French consumers but also British holidaymakers travelling to Europe for the first time since the euro was introduced in January.

A spokesman for Business for Sterling, part of the No campaign, said similar price rises would be seen in Britain if the euro were adopted here.

George Eustice, its campaign director, said: "There are huge costs associated with the introduction of the euro.

"Eurozone businesses have found it very easy to exploit confusion and pass these costs on to the consumer.

"The same would happen in Britain.

"The Government had hoped people would become more positive about the euro after using it this summer, but this has not happened and opposition remains high.

"People's views on the euro may have been affected by experiencing price rises on holiday."

Business for Sterling also claimed that, in countries which had adopted the euro, 83 per cent of people think that prices have been rounded up since its introduction.

It says the amount charged for many groceries and leisure activities had risen in Spain, Greece, Italy, Germany, Austria, Holland, Ireland and France.

The increase mirrors the public perception that prices were rounded up in Britain after decimalisation in 1971. Some economists believe this contributed to huge inflation in the early 1970s.

The UFC survey results, revealed yesterday, conflict with official figures from the National Institute of Statistics and Economic studies (INSEE). These reported an annual inflation rate of 1.7 per cent for consumer goods in France last year.

Between March and June this year, INSEE recorded price rises of 0.5 per cent, while UFC said its tests showed increases of 2.63 per cent in May and June alone.

Marie-Jones Nicoli, the UFC president, said: "In the past two years, in other words the run up to the euro and its immediate aftermath, the prices of basic consumer goods have gone up by about 10 per cent.

"There is a big difference between us and INSEE because they pile in all kinds of tests and products," she said. "We simply measure goods bought and used by the man or woman on the street, at the shops that they buy from regularly."

A moratorium on rises was signed by France's major distributors and retailers before the euro was introduced.

They agreed to freeze prices between November 2000 and the end of March 2001, precisely to allay consumer fears of euro profiteering.

But after noting the prices of 55,000 items in 1,040 major retailers over the past two years, UFC discovered that retailers had, nonetheless, used the introduction of the euro to increase prices well above the rate of inflation.

"Retailers respected the moratorium, but they increased prices hugely before it came into effect, in anticipation of the euro. Now they are doing it again," said Mme Nicoli.

"Prices are shooting up now and this is only the beginning. We are sure that by the end of the year some products will be up by a further 10-20 per cent.

"In the old days an increase of one centime was not much, but now one euro cent is worth 6.56 times that. People are able to put up prices and cash in on the confusion."

UFC, France's most respected consumer association, has monitored the real impact of inflation on shopper's wallets for decades.

It uses a basket of 50 products which are available nationally in France, including food, make-up and pet food.

The cost of its shopping basket rose from an equivalent of 124.83 euros to 133.32 euros between November 2000 and June 2002, an increase five percentage points above the annual rate of inflation.

UFC says that some increases have been due to a sudden rise in the cost of raw materials, but insists that the principal factor is the euro, and the willingness of retailers to exploit shoppers' uncertainty.

"People are being fooled into thinking that things are cheaper than they are," said Mme Nicoli. "They think that prices of one or two or three euros are cheap.

"But then they get home and make the calculations with the old prices in francs and they find out that it's not cheap at all."

re (Andy): "...decimalisation is extremely relevant as an example of where the government changes something for the benefit of the people - but where the people do not realise the benefits until afterwards".


REPLY: I would contend that the duodecimal system of coinage was superior - but let that pass for now.

After your post, Andy, I got to thinking about the richness of the language associated with pounds, shillings and pence - similar to the richness of the Imperial system of weights and measures as against the metric system - which we have virtually lost now we've gone metric.

I'm sure others will add many examples:

- Haven't got a brass farthing

- Honest shilling

- Crown

- Half a crown

- Florin

- Bent as a nine-bob note

- Turn on a sixpence

- A few bob

- Couldn't care a tuppenny damn

- A fourpenny one

- A penny for them

- Haven't got two ha'pennies to rub together

- Sound as a pound

- Guinea

- Pound to a penny

- Fish 'n 'six

- Threepenny bit

- Penny farthing

<<Metric can co-exist with non-metric as manifestly it does. But that doesn't mean it is wise to allow it.>>

So it is not 'wise'.
In who's point of view?
I think it's VERY wide.
Hmmm, a difference of opinion eh?
[Will they ever learn?]

<<Arguments about freedom to choose are bogus. When we have dual measures we all have to know both. No one has a real choice>>

You have to know measurements? What?
Look, the decimaliasatuion thing is totally bogus.

I've researched the pre-decimalisation story (pre-dec was before my time).

I've really looked into it.

I see its benefits, I also see it's short-comings.

I prefer decimal currency, on balance.

I prefer imperial measures, on balance.

I guess that makes me a freak in the eyes of those who are not keen on reality.



Did I tell you that time and dates were anti-metric?

(yes, this could get tedious)

<<<Did I tell you that time and dates were anti-metric?>>>

Who exactly has advocated metricating time?

Why does the imperial side always need to exaggerate everything?

<<Who exactly has advocated metricating time?

Why does the imperial side always need to exaggerate everything?>>>

WAKE UP ANDY!

I was being deliberately ludicrous!

The decimalisation of currency is bogus - just like "metric time" argument.

Work it out, mate?

On a side-note, many people have seriously suggested decimalising time. Metric originally was designed to have decimal time. Also, the swatch company have invented their own version of decimal time, and in some circles it is quite popular.

<<Also, the swatch company have invented their own version of decimal time, and in some circles it is quite popular>>

Really?

I do hope I don't bump into oneof those people when I'm late for an interview!

Hey - perhaps they'll do what some publications do with measures - and respond in metric time and then bracketed in "imperial" time for the populace to understand!

Bryan wrote

<<
On a side-note, many people have seriously suggested decimalising time. Metric originally was designed to have decimal time.
>>

The French Revolutionary calendar was a metric calendar - see http://www.windhorst.org/calendar/ (BTW, program calendar is millenium compliant - I checked it!).

In more recent years, I once worked on a site where I was required ot clock in and out on a clock that gave the time in hours and decimals of an hour. It made one's timesheets easy to calculate.

Hmm, I have to work out hours worked at my workplace as I work in administration half of the time. We use hours and minutes and it is not at all a problem. anyway, I am talking about dividing the day decimally. Just as many maps are starting to divide the globe into 1000 as well as 360 (why, though? If anyone can tell me, please do)

You may be interested to know that many professional astronomers use decimalized time. Days are simply numbered consecutively, and each day is broken down decimally. A day in several centuries BC was chosen to be Day 1.

Very interesting to know, thanks Bud. I just assumed astronomers used degrees, minutes and seconds (and thus assumed they used hours etc too).

The frogs did have a ten hour day and ten month year and other such nonsense for about 18 months I believe.

I've seen a picture of a 10 hour pocket watch.

i would be easier for calculation, but then they are so few and far between it's not worth it.

But then who caculates with fruit and veg? You only usually divide or mix (or eat), and we all know metrick's crap at that.

S.Cruple

I remember that 10-hour pocket watch in my history book. The French revolutionaries did not succeed in making people adopt it, although they did manage to force through most of their other changes, including redistricting the country.

Its that damn "habit" again!

"caculate" - Is this a word meaning to talk crap about measurements?

I think I might use that one in the future!