Andy,

<<<BWMA corresponded with Martin Bangemann, a European Commissioner, and his Head of Metrology. The Metrology boss insisted: “Your Imperial weights and measures give you an unfair competitive advantage in your trade with the U.S. That’s why we must abolish them in your country”. >>>

I fail to see why you cannot accept a straitforward statement. I hardly think Tony would even dream of putting words into Herr Martin Bangemann's mouth.

This one statement by Herr Martin Bangemann is sufficient to rebuff all your own rhetorical questions, i.e.

<Do you really think anyone in other european countries give a damn whether <we go metric or not?

Obviously Herr Martin Bangemann gives a damn.

>Continental Europe forcing Britain to adopt metric?! LOL! I don't know >where to start with that one... this statement sums up the ignorance of >people in Britain to the EU.

Likewise. Herr Bangemann's words "That’s why we must abolish them in your country.” is as explicit an example of coersion as one can get.

>Ray, whatever your feelings about the EU, it is as much British as it is >German or French. It is not them (as in "the continent") against us! You >are reading too many tabloids!

1. I don't read tabloids, I'll leave them for you as you seem to know what is in them.
2. I have no feelings one way or the other about the EU. I only asked a question. You are the one injecting hormones into what others say.
3. Continental Europe is a phrase indicating the part of Europe separated from Britain by the English Channel (and the countries that lie within it as a generality). Yes I do know Switzerland isn't part of the EU!

>I find it very hard to believe that he really said that. Isn't trade >between Britain and the US done in metric anyway?

I didn't say that "Britain had an unfair advantage because of your use of Imperial measures", Herr Martin Bangemann did. He obviously wouldn't have said that if British/US trade was done in metric.


All you are trying to do is to revise history. I think you'd make an excellent candidate for the department of the Brussels hegomony responsible for 'newspeak' and 'doublthink'.

<<<I fail to see why you cannot accept a straitforward statement. I hardly think Tony would even dream of putting words into Herr Martin Bangemann's mouth.>>>

Because the BWMA is an extremist group, there is likely to be some "twisting" of the truth.

<<<<Do you really think anyone in other european countries give a damn whether <we go metric or not?

Obviously Herr Martin Bangemann gives a damn.>>>

And he is obviously the kind of EU bureaucrat that I dislike as much as you or anyone else on the pro-imperial side.

See my point in the next thread - I am not in favour of EU metrication rules - they should be british regulations because we are not doing it to please the EU.

<<<3. Continental Europe is a phrase indicating the part of Europe separated from Britain by the English Channel (and the countries that lie within it as a generality). Yes I do know Switzerland isn't part of the EU! >>>

And Britain *IS* part of the EU. I'm not a fan of the EU, but it winds me up when people say its "Europe" forcing us to do something, as if we weren't part of it!

<<<I didn't say that "Britain had an unfair advantage because of your use of Imperial measures", Herr Martin Bangemann did. He obviously wouldn't have said that if British/US trade was done in metric.>>>

Well in light of his previous (alleged) comment, I would take anything he said with a pinch of salt.

<<<All you are trying to do is to revise history. I think you'd make an excellent candidate for the department of the Brussels hegomony responsible for 'newspeak' and 'doublthink'.>>>

I think you're stereotyping me just because I am in favour of metrication in Britain.

<<Because the BWMA is an extremist group,>>

LOL! Where's me balaclava?!?

Why is BWMA extremist?

re (Andy): "Because the BWMA is an extremist group..."


REPLY: In the Soviet Union of the 1960s, protestors like Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Vladimir Bukovsky and other dissidents were branded 'extremist', 'counter-revolutionaries', 'enemies of the state' etc.

Now that we can look back on those times, we can see with clarity that the Communists who locked these people up were the 'baddies' and people like Solzhenitsyn and Bukovsky the 'goodies'.

Andy, do you really not have enough insight to see that your mindset is in grave danger of turning into a totalitarian mindset, by the absurd use of the label 'extremist' for BWMA, who do not even campaign for Imperial measures but essentialy for freedom of choice?

In the 2002 ICM survey of opinion on road and footpath signs, there was an 11 to 1 majority for keeping signs Imperial. Eleven out of twelve 'extremist'?

Tony states (from his Customary Measures Society report)

"8.17 Finally in this Section, we deal with what may lie behind the European agitation for Britain to metricate. In 1997, BWMA corresponded with Martin Bangemann, a European Commissioner, and his Head of Metrology. The Metrology boss insisted: “Your Imperial weights and measures give you an unfair competitive advantage in your trade with the U.S. That’s why we must abolish them in your country”

Vivien Linacre of BWMA, however, states that the quote was

"Britain is in an anomalous position – on the one hand being a partner in the EU but on the other hand sharing a common system of weights and measures with the USA, thereby gaining an unfair competitive advantage in transatlantic trade."

or

"Britain is in an anomalous position, as a full partner in the EU but sharing a common system of weights & measures with the USA, thereby enjoying an unfair competitive advantage in transatlantic trade."

at
http://www.bwmaonline.com/Banana%20Republic.htm
and at
http://users.aol.com/footrule/bbcwhop.htm
respectively

Vivien also implies that this was said at a face-to-face meeting between him & Herr Bangemann, not in written correspondence as Tony implies.

Note that there is no mention of the word "abolish" in Vivien's reports. The only four words in a row that appear in both Tony & Vivien's quotations are "an unfair competitive advantage"

Ray said
"I hardly think Tony would even dream of putting words into Herr Martin Bangemann's mouth."

Is Vivien mistaken in his recollection of what was actually said?
Is it a quote from written correspondence, or an oral conversation?

Tony went on to state (also from his report)

"8.18 When BWMA met Department of Trade and Investment officials two years later to protest against prosecutions of traders for selling in pounds, they said: “They’re right. It gives us an unfair competitive advantage and we must strive to eliminate that"

Who are the "Department of Trade & Investment?" The "I" in DTI stands for "Industry"

The only remotely similar quote to Tony's (that I recall) came from Lacor's advice "Businesses that are complying with the law are losing out both in the money they have invested in converting equipment and by suffering unfavourable price comparisons between their price indications in kilos and competitors’ indications in pounds." issued on 18th Nov 2000.

However, that quote did not relate in any way to trade with the USA, but rather to UK traders using Imperial only equipment.

Like Andy, I find it hard to accept Tony's "quotations" as fact without some evidence

Extreme: 1.) A term used by Socialists, Progressives, and other leftists to describe viewpoints opposed to their own. 2.) Alternatively, a term used by Libertarians, Conservatives, Constitutionalists, and Nationalists to describe viewpoints in favor of radically altering the status quo and/or of infringing upon liberty; this usage does not get much play in the news media.

re (Beranger): REPLIES INTERLEAVED:


Tony states (from his Customary Measures Society report)

"8.17 Finally in this Section, we deal with what may lie behind the European agitation for Britain to metricate. In 1997, BWMA corresponded with Martin Bangemann, a European Commissioner, and his Head of Metrology. The Metrology boss insisted: “Your Imperial weights and measures give you an unfair competitive advantage in your trade with the U.S. That’s why we must abolish them in your country”

Vivian Linacre of BWMA, however, states that the quote was

"Britain is in an anomalous position – on the one hand being a partner in the EU but on the other hand sharing a common system of weights and measures with the USA, thereby gaining an unfair competitive advantage in transatlantic trade."

or

"Britain is in an anomalous position, as a full partner in the EU but sharing a common system of weights & measures with the USA, thereby enjoying an unfair competitive advantage in transatlantic trade."

at
http://www.bwmaonline.com/Banana%20Republic.htm
and at
http://users.aol.com/footrule/bbcwhop.htm
respectively

Vivian also implies that this was said at a face-to-face meeting between him & Herr Bangemann, not in written correspondence as Tony implies.

REPLY: I checked this with Vivian Lincare prior to publication and he emphasised that the words were in writing, not spoken. He read the draft Customary Measures Report and did not correct this quotation

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note that there is no mention of the word "abolish" in Vivien's reports. The only four words in a row that appear in both Tony & Vivien's quotations are "an unfair competitive advantage"

Ray said: "I hardly think Tony would even dream of putting words into Herr Martin Bangemann's mouth." Is Vivian mistaken in his recollection of what was actually said? Is it a quote from written correspondence, or an oral conversation?

REPLY: Please see above

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tony went on to state (also from his report)

"8.18 When BWMA met Department of Trade and Investment officials two years later to protest against prosecutions of traders for selling in pounds, they said: “They’re right. It gives us an unfair competitive advantage and we must strive to eliminate that"

Who are the "Department of Trade & Investment?" The "I" in DTI stands for "Industry"

REPLY: Should be the Department of Trade and Industry, I think, though it *might* have had a different name or perhaps it does now? - is it not called the Department of Trade and Investment now?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The only remotely similar quote to Tony's (that I recall) came from Lacors' advice "Businesses that are complying with the law are losing out both in the money they have invested in converting equipment and by suffering unfavourable price comparisons between their price indications in kilos and competitors’ indications in pounds", issued on 18th Nov 2000. However, that quote did not relate in any way to trade with the USA, but rather to UK traders using Imperial only equipment. Like Andy, I find it hard to accept Tony's "quotations" as fact without some evidence

REPLY: Your only alternative is to 'phone Vivian in Perth, or better still put through a call to Herr Bangemann

Tony Bennett wrote

<<
REPLY: Should be the Department of Trade and Industry, I think, though it *might* have had a different name or perhaps it does now? - is it not called the Department of Trade and Investment now?
>>

A visit to www.dti.gov.uk should settle the question.

Tony

There are 3 separate versions of the quote allegedly made by Herr Bangemann written out in full in my previous post. One is very different from the other 2.

You state that Vivien has the original quote in writing. May I ask: -

1) Why then is your version so different from his?

2) Has the "quote" used in the CMS report been embellished in any way by you?

3) If "No" to question 2) above, why has Vivien waited 8 years to release the bombshell that the words "abolish them in your country" were used in a written reply from an EC official in relation to imperial weights?

Your report also contains alleged quotes by DTI officials. May I ask: -

1) Why do you refer me to Herr Bangemann for clarification - was he also at the meeting?

2) Can you provide any evidence that your actual "quote" was ever made by a DTI official?

3) How does your so called "quote" relate to trade with the USA, if BWMA and the DTI were discussing sales of loose goods in the UK?

4) Has Vivien moved to Perth? :-)

Martin

Perhaps Tony got tired & confused on his way back from amending all Eire's road signs. It's so easy to confuse Northern Ireland's Department of Enterprise, Trade & Investment (DETI) with the UK's Department of Trade and Industry (DTI). I am truly surprised that this doesn't happen on a daily basis.

Dammit - I was going to mention something about it being in northern ireland!

<<<Andy, do you really not have enough insight to see that your mindset is in grave danger of turning into a totalitarian mindset, by the absurd use of the label 'extremist' for BWMA>>>

OK, my comments were aimed more at ARM than BWMA. I admit I do tend to tar them with the same brush, which I know is wrong. That would be like saying Sinn Fein is the same as the IRA.

Tony, I take it you don't object to the term "extremist" for the ARM?

<<<who do not even campaign for Imperial measures but essentialy for freedom of choice?>>>

We've gone over this so many times. BWMA does not campaign for choice, it campaigns for imperial.

The big difference between BWMA and UKMA, essentially two similar organisations on opposite sides - is honesty. Whereas the UKMA is open about the element of compulsion, BWMA contradicts itself by saying it is in favour of choice, but then says the choice of metric should not be allowed in certain areas!!

Can you not see how ludicrous this notion of "freedom of choice" is?

re (Andy): "Tony, I take it you don't object to the term 'extremist' for the ARM?"

REPLY:

Andyspeak:

An official who breaks the law by erecting illegal metric road signs: 'normal'

A citizen who writes to these officials and points out that they've broken the law, then acts himself to correct the illegal sign when the said official refuses point blank to correct their illegality - 'extremist'.

Any more of your amusing definitions we can have a good laugh over, Andy?

<<<A citizen who writes to these officials and points out that they've broken the law, then acts himself to correct the illegal sign when the said official refuses point blank to correct their illegality - 'extremist'.>>>

So if I went round my local market, noted all the traders using pounds and ounces, wrote to the officials pointing out that they have broken the law, then if nothing was done, acted myself to amend their illegal signs - that wouldn't be extreme?!

<<<Any more of your amusing definitions we can have a good laugh over, Andy?>>>

I'm glad you find them amusing. I certainly have a good laugh at your increasingly bizarre views.

"hypocrisy" might be a good one to start with, but I'll let you reply to this post first.

<<Like saying Sinn Fein is the same as the IRA.>>

Erm - they are. They share the same members and ultimate policy

<<We've gone over this so many times. BWMA does not campaign for choice, it campaigns for imperial.>>

Careful wording here - it campaigns for RETENTION of imperial - not superiority of it.

And your comment on shops doesn't add up - shops show both units, so you'd have to carefully scribble one out, rather than replace it. Or have I read you wrong?

<<<Erm - they are. They share the same members and ultimate policy>>>

Isn't it the same with BWMA/ARM? - one is the 'official' organisation, the other the radical extremist wing which takes direct action.

<<<Careful wording here - it campaigns for RETENTION of imperial - not superiority of it.>>>

In some situations eg shops, thats fine. But in the case of signs, the retention and superiority of imperial amounts to the same thing, unless the choice of metric is allowed.

<<<And your comment on shops doesn't add up - shops show both units, so you'd have to carefully scribble one out, rather than replace it. Or have I read you wrong?>>>

If both were shown, that would be legal. I was talking about situations where the law was being broken, ie only imperial shown.

A situation, which I see as exactly the same as a metric sign.

"Isn't it the same with BWMA/ARM? - one is the 'official' organisation, the other the radical extremist wing which takes direct action."

Direct action and terrorism are classed as very different things, politically. As far as I know (correct me if I am wrong) ARM have never left explosives outside organisations or in countries that are percieved to have eomthing to do with the metric system.

Emily Pankhurst (spelling?) chained herself to the rails at the H.O.C. - whe did not plant bombs. Note the outcome. Direct action can work - and appears to have done so insofar as signs. And not one person has been maimed.

"If both were shown, that would be legal. I was talking about situations where the law was being broken, ie only imperial shown."

Write a letter - I do.

<<<Direct action and terrorism are classed as very different things, politically. As far as I know (correct me if I am wrong) ARM have never left explosives outside organisations or in countries that are percieved to have eomthing to do with the metric system.>>>

Of course they are different! But both are extreme

<><<Emily Pankhurst (spelling?) chained herself to the rails at the H.O.C. - whe did not plant bombs. Note the outcome. Direct action can work - and appears to have done so insofar as signs. And not one person has been maimed.>>>

I never said extreme action is wrong! Sometimes it is necessary. My issue was with TB because he denies being an extremist

re (Andy): "because he denies being an extremist..."

REPLY: And 'beating his wife'. Have you put me in any other pigeonholes apart from that one which I also might have to 'deny'?

Judging by your last post, almost everyone in the world may be an extremist. What definition of 'extremist', Andy, fits a highways official who puts up an illegal metric sign because he thinks that's the law? You might also like to reflect, Andy, that the word 'extremist' might be better reserved for the kind of people who flew into the World Trade Centre towers...

<<<Judging by your last post, almost everyone in the world may be an extremist.>>>

I fail to see that logic!

<<< What definition of 'extremist', Andy, fits a highways official who puts up an illegal metric sign because he thinks that's the law? >>>

The same definition that fits a market trader who sells only in pounds and ounces because he thinks thats the law. ie. not an extremist.

I notice you've failed to respond again as to why the law should be rigorously enforced regarding signs, but not regarding market traders

<<<You might also like to reflect, Andy, that the word 'extremist' might be better reserved for the kind of people who flew into the World Trade Centre towers...>>>

Fair enough, compared to that, calling you an extremist is a bit extreme

Re: BWMA corresponded with Martin Bangemann, a European Commissioner, and his Head of Metrology. The Metrology boss insisted: “Your Imperial weights and measures give you an unfair competitive advantage in your trade with the U.S. That’s why we must abolish them in your country”.

This is an extraordinary statement from someone who should have known better than to have said it, especially to a known group of opponents to metrication via EU directives.

It's a bit like Hitler writing to Churchill before WWII saying "We need time to build our offensive against Poland, that's why I signed that bit of paper for Mr Chamberlain"

"Of course they are different! But both are extreme"

Depends on where you put your reference point (ahem 'yardstick') to where "extreme" starts.

Personally I put extreme in a catagory where hostility on a large scale must arise.

I think, Andy, you may be referring to "the hard line".

eg. I would say that I'm hard right (freedom, capitalist, patriot) but not extreme right (racist, psuedo-socialist, xenophobic).

See?

re (Andy): "I notice you've failed to respond again as to why the law should be rigorously enforced regarding signs, but not regarding market traders..."



REPLY: Study Criminology some day - before the curtain comes down on your liberty and mine (step nearer today with the new 'Control Orders' on British citizens).

If a law isn't supported by a clear majority of its citizens, it's bad law.

An overwhelming majority of British citizens support having one set of road measurements on its road signs for road safety reasons.

An overwhelming majority of British citizens oppose criminalising selling in pounds and ounces because it's clearly repressive.

[I hope that wasn't another 'extreme' statement]

Tony Bennett wrote

<<
An overwhelming majority of British citizens oppose criminalising selling in pounds and ounces because it's clearly repressive.
>>


Nobody has been criminalised for selling in pounds and ounces. Certain people have however been criminalised for using measuring devices that are unauthorised. That has been the law since the year "dot".

<<<An overwhelming majority of British citizens support having one set of road measurements on its road signs for road safety reasons.>>>

That may be the case, though of course they have never been asked.

However, do you really think the majority of British citizens think it should be illegal to erect a footpath sign in metres?

A lot would probably think it was daft to have a sign saying "Toilets 200m" a few yards from another sign saying "Plymouth 38m"

Hence the odd mutant sign eg "EU Supporters Convention 200mtrs =>"

Of course, if the DoT followed the law, they would have written Totnes 38 miles.

In your world (which is pretty unique!) what abbreviation would you allow on our roads?

Ideally those recommended by the SI brochure - km, m, t, km/h

In practice, the above supplenmented by those authorised by the Units of Measure Regulations 1994.

<<Ideally those recommended by the SI brochure - km, m, t, km/h>>

That's fine then, because we use 'm' for miles in this country

SteveH wrote

<<
That's fine then, because we use 'm' for miles in this country
>>

Steve, there aer two different and contradictory laws in this country regarding the use of the symbols "m" and "mile". Two years ago the courts ruled which law should take precedence. Unfortunately the DfT has not yet taken heed of that ruling.

<<<In your world (which is pretty unique!) what abbreviation would you allow on our roads? >>>

Actually Britain is unique in using 'm' for miles. In America they use 'mi'

I'm not for one moment suggesting that seeing a sign saying Bristol 50m on a motorway is going to cause someone to slam their brakes on in anticipation of a turning 50 metres away - but with the use of metres (in the real Britain, not SteveH's Britain ;-)) becoming more common, the use of the symbol for metres to mean 'mile' could be a significant issue when it comes to revising weights and measures legislation for road signs.

Just a thought...

While you're on your "reality trip" go and ask a thousand people what they think 'm' stands for when driving a car.

This is the reason why most of the (ultra rare) signs that I see that try to be clever and attempt to mean 'metres' use a mix of the following:

mtrs
mt
mts
Mt
Mts
M
metres
meters

<<<While you're on your "reality trip" go and ask a thousand people what they think 'm' stands for when driving a car.>>>

I specifically pointed out for your benefit that I did not think anyone would get the two mixed up!

<<<This is the reason why most of the (ultra rare) signs that I see that try to be clever and attempt to mean 'metres' use a mix of the following:>>>

They are rare at the moment because current legislation prohibits it! Organisation that have used metric have simply used common sense and decided metric was the most appropriate - then found out that bizarrely, Britains official weights and measures are banned from appearing on signs! If any one sentance sums up the ludicrous situation we are in in Britain, that must be it:

"Britains official weights and measures are banned from appearing on signs!"

Sooner or later the legislation will be amended to permit metres on signs, and a decision will then have to be made on what symbol is used for metres and what symbol for miles - unless of course the govt does it all in one go (which I doubt)

<<
Sooner or later the legislation will be amended to permit metres on signs, and a decision will then have to be made on what symbol is used for metres and what symbol for miles - unless of course the govt does it all in one go (which I doubt)
>>

Of course, if a foreign lorry driver hits a bridge, a prosecution is brought and he successfukllt argues that the use of the single and double apostrophes were an illegal representation of feet and inches, the Government would over-react and bring everything into line with the UK Units of Measure Regulations 1994 (which is teh current definitve statement of what units may be used for legal purposes).

"Organisation that have used metric have simply used common sense and decided metric was the most appropriate "

Why?
All road signs for short distances show yds. So why choose a unit that bears no reflection on what is used on our roads?

Also - I think most of us agree that the majority use imperial in day to day activities (even you say so, with the caveat that its slowly decreasing) - so who, in these organisations, decides that we all want to see metres?

This is one thing I hate about minority oppresiveness - If you ask the avg person to describe a table - he'll probably say something like "brown, wood, about 4 feet tall". So who in - for example - Argos - thought "I know - I'll use millimetres! No-one uses millimetres so I'll do just that!"

Yeah - like the avg brit is going to say "grey, metal, 800mm tall"

Lets be honest with ourselves - it seems a bizzare thing to do.

Or maybe they think they're being "progressive" or something?

<<<Why?
All road signs for short distances show yds. So why choose a unit that bears no reflection on what is used on our roads?>>>

Because metres and yards are essentially the same, and are both understood by all. An organisation thinks ahead, and decides to use the one whose use is increasing and may possibly soon be the only one permitted. It is a logical choice.

<<<Also - I think most of us agree that the majority use imperial in day to day activities (even you say so, with the caveat that its slowly decreasing) - so who, in these organisations, decides that we all want to see metres?>>>

Depends entirely on the activity. In measuring a table, I think most would use metric these days.

Not millimetres though, I agree!

<<<Lets be honest with ourselves - it seems a bizzare thing to do.>>>

Not at all. When buying furniture, you often need to know the exact size. The furniture would have been produced to metric sizes so why convert this nice round 80cm to an awkward imperial size?

SteveH wrote

<<
If you ask the avg person to describe a table - he'll probably say something like "brown, wood, about 4 feet tall
>>

Steve, if you consider yourself to be an "average" person, you have just shown your inability to visualise meaurements. Desks are typically 70cm high and tables 75cm high. (Measure your own desk - mine is 70cm high). The IKEA tables are between 73cm and 75cm high.

If you convert this into Imperial measure, you get 2ft 6in (ie you over-estimated by about 60%

Stve, postscript to my last posting - your over-estimation is almost identical to someone confusing miles and kilometres.

Martin - I was plucking figures out of the air. I was not being accurate. I was making a point.



"Because metres and yards are essentially the same, and are both understood by all."

But most would write an "m" as miles (or minutes, or millions)

"An organisation thinks ahead, and decides to use the one whose use is increasing and may possibly soon be the only one permitted. It is a logical choice."

Only one permitted? How can you tell people to think in "only one" way?

"Depends entirely on the activity. In measuring a table, I think most would use metric these days."

Try it. So long as Martin is not sitting by you - ask the person to your left or right to guess the height of a table (point at one).

"Not millimetres though, I agree!"

Not cm either!
Or dm! (which would actually be a handier size for the task, but caught on even less than other metric denominations)


<<Not at all. When buying furniture, you often need to know the exact size.>>

Metric is more accurate than imperial? eh?
If I need a 7ft pole (a standard length i believe) would it be more accuarate to see it by the cm?

" The furniture would have been produced to metric sizes so why convert this nice round 80cm to an awkward imperial size?"

Wycombe is famed for making furniture, especially chairs. Do yo ureally think they all care if the handicraft is rounded imperial or metric? It's a personal choice. A choice of which the vast majority choose imperial - and a majority of "big" furniture shops use metric. Go figure.

<<<Only one permitted? How can you tell people to think in "only one" way?>>>

Thats a different argument entirely. Organisations putting up signs using metric are probably anticipating the future metrication of road signs, hence saving money by putting up a sign that will 'possibly' become outdated. Common sense. Logic.

<<<Try it. So long as Martin is not sitting by you - ask the person to your left or right to guess the height of a table (point at one).>>>

I'm not that sad.

Actually we moved offices a few months ago, and measurements were taken/discussed. Various people had a hand in it and *everyone* automatically measured in metric. Apart from one american lady, who measured something in inches, and was met with puzzled looks and comments (not from me!) of "we use centimetres in England"

True story - should have mentioned it before.

<<<Metric is more accurate than imperial? eh?
If I need a 7ft pole (a standard length i believe) would it be more accuarate to see it by the cm?>>>

You know what I mean! It breaks down easier (m, cm, mm) Imperial is fine for round numbers, but when you get into fractions of an inch its awkward.

<<<Wycombe is famed for making furniture, especially chairs. Do yo ureally think they all care if the handicraft is rounded imperial or metric? It's a personal choice. A choice of which the vast majority choose imperial - and a majority of "big" furniture shops use metric. Go figure.>>>

British industry is actually metric in case you hadn't noticed. Its not personal choice - in industry there are standards.

SteveH wrote

<<
Or dm! (which would actually be a handier size for the task, but caught on even less than other metric denominations)
>>

Of course, if you are a horsey type, you will know that horses are often measured in "hands" - 1 hand = 1.02dm. Now that would be an easy conversion.

<<Thats a different argument entirely. Organisations putting up signs using metric are probably anticipating the future metrication of road signs, hence saving money by putting up a sign that will 'possibly' become outdated. Common sense. Logic.>>

Apply logic to this statement "not for the foreseeable future" and see if you can guess what government organisation said it.

<<I'm not that sad.>>

Drop it into conversation!

<<Actually we moved offices a few months ago, and measurements were taken/discussed. Various people had a hand in it and *everyone* automatically measured in metric.>>

You work in a strange place - unless your implements were all metric,

<<and was met with puzzled looks and comments (not from me!) of "we use centimetres in England">>

So:-

Your collegues were puzzled because they heard a lady say "inches" - something that they've never come across before. ie "What are inches?"
also
"we use centimetres" eh?
Peoples Height?
TV screens?
unofficial wording for floppy disks?
Pizzas?
Approximation in conversation?
Rain depth?
Wheel sizes?
Everyday speech?
(I can't be bothered to do the normal list)

Nope, your colleagues are absolutely right - we don't understand what an inch is because we all use centimetres.

<<You know what I mean! It breaks down easier (m, cm, mm) Imperial is fine for round numbers, but when you get into fractions of an inch its awkward.>>

I find it fine down to the quarter inch.

<<British industry is actually metric in case you hadn't noticed. Its not personal choice - in industry there are standards.>>

I'm talking about hand made craftsmen stuff. And no, not all industry is metric. (most is)



<<Of course, if you are a horsey type, you will know that horses are often measured in "hands" - 1 hand = 1.02dm. Now that would be an easy conversion. >>

Neigh, I'm not a horsey type.

<<<You work in a strange place>>>

Yes the town I live in in southern England is nothing like the rest of the UK. We all speak french and use the euro.

<<<Your collegues were puzzled because they heard a lady say "inches" - something that they've never come across before. ie "What are inches?" >>>

NO. They were puzzled because she MEASURED something in inches. As in taking a tape measure and reading off the inch measurement, whereas everyone else automatically read off the metric.

There is a big difference. I'm not disputing that people would describe something in feet and inches eg about 4ft high, but when they come to actually measuring it, most people in my experience use metric.

<<<I'm talking about hand made craftsmen stuff.>>>

Weren't we talking about Argos?

<<Weren't we talking about Argos?>>

I was referring to the hand made Wycombe chair thingy that I spoke about earlier.

I'm not sure what argos are like now. If you remember I mentioned before Christmas that they'd started using inches in their pre-Christmas ads.

Insofar as measuring tape - I find that "normal" people (ie people that don't take an unhealthy interest in metric vs imperial like us!) use whatever "number" looks appropriate to the job without looking to see if it says cm or inches.

On QVC and the like they tend to go for inches but sometimes cm are used.

I wonder if, in some cases, its literally down to the fact that "inch" is shorter and easier to say than centimetre? Possibly - after all most people don't have an emotional attachment to numbers.