I assume that everyone is watching this BBC Scotland series about the work of various Scottish Trading Standards Departments?

If you have Sky, try tuning in to BBC Scotland on Wed nights at 10.30ish.

The "big buildings/cars screeching around" graphics are a bit OTT, but it shows the quirkier side of a TSO's job (whatever that entails - obviously, I couldn't comment!) plus some of the real work.

I'm sure that everyone will be disappointed that after 3 programmes, there has not been one mention of W&M in any of the shows. It just shows 2 things -

1) Scotland does not have the problem with conversion to metric that this site is trying to paint as common throughout the UK.....

2) Tony's depiction of TSO's as straining at the leash to go out on 1/1/2010 and enforce UKMA's wishlist is absolute nonsense.....

<<<<Scotland does not have the problem with conversion to metric that this site is trying to paint as common throughout the UK.....>>>>

I don't think its just Scotland... Its not a big issue for anyone.

Look at the "metric martyrs" case. The tabloids tried to generate some interest by sensationalising the issue. then gradually it became clear that he was NOT actually being prosecuted for selling a pound of bananas, and everyone quickly lost interest.

People are always sceptical and resistant to change. That is why if you ask someone about metrication, they will usually say "why not keep things as they are"

But unfortunately for BWMA I think the resistance to metrication is very shallow, and people simply don't care that much.

re (Beranger): " 2) Tony's depiction of TSO's as straining at the leash to go out on 1/1/2010 and enforce UKMA's wishlist is absolute nonsense..."


REPLY: You should have seen what they were like when they got their chance to stamp out weighing and pricing in pounds and ounces in the first half of 2000.

'Straining at the leash' would be very close to the mark, I can assure you.

Grown men and women shopkeepers in tears. Threats of their businesses being forced to close. Threats of fines. Threats of expensive Court proceedings. Threats to withdraw street trading licences. Joint visits, mob-handed, to difficult traders. Warning notices, enforcement notices, legal letters, Court actions, joint raids with Police. Disabling perfectly sound and accurate weighing machines. Whipping away price labels for evidence. Undercover agents pretending to be real customers. Court proceedings. Gathering evidence. Presenting evidence in Court. Cross-examinations of 'metric martyrs'. Hearing the sentences given...

Beranger, they *loved* it, revelled in it

Tony

The only cases which were anywhere near as dramatic as you suggest, were where a particular trader was making a stand against the regulations. Confiscation of scales, taking of prices as evidence was an absolute last resort measure used against traders who persistantly ignored all warnings.

Tony,

My experience in South Africa where the law on metrication was firmly enforced was that people (customers and shop-keepers alike) recognised that by enforcing the metrication laws, the Government was keeping a level playing field - what matterde was price and quality, not labelling.

Before anybody starts making stupid noises about South Africa's Apartheid system, it is worth pointing out that Rhodesia (at is was called by its de facto Government) and Zambia - two implacibally opposed countries to the immediate North of South Africa and on either side of the Zambezi river had almost identical laws on metrication at the same time (1970's).

In contrast the UK government has been weak in this area - most of the honest shop-keepers invested in metric scales while a few rouges insisted on keeping their imperial weights. The result is that those shop-keepers (the majority) who invested in metric scales in compliance with the law have had to match the antics of the rouge traders because the TSO's (or rather their political masters) have not done their duy. The result is that they have been deprived of the benefit on their investment because of a weak government and a few rouge traders.

"In contrast the UK government has been weak in this area "

More accurately - the public involved are very different

Tony said

"Beranger, they *loved* it, revelled in it"

Yeah. Right.

But TSO's come nowhere in the "loving and revelling" stakes when compared with ARM's "enforcement" teams.

Tony - have you actually seen the programme? Were Perth & Kinross TSO's rejoicing when the 12 year old kid was sold fags & "Kill Bill" (an 18 rated video) by large supermarkets? (Oh sorry, that's an undercover agent pretending to be a real customer - how evil!)

The only one that was nearly in tears was the TSO - tears of frustration that 3 major supermarket chains could be so negligent.

re (Beranger): "But TSOs come nowhere in the 'loving and revelling' stakes when compared with ARM's 'enforcement' teams.


REPLY: Confession time. I have to concede - and have publicly admitted - that replacing an illegal metric sign with a nice-looking, professionally-produced Imperial one is *cathartic*.

The European Union is undermining and destroying our Parliamentary democracy, replacing it with rule by unelected committees.

It takes away our nice British blue passports and gives us magenta 'European Community' ones.

It sucks [see CIVITAS website] £40 billion a year out of this country.

Its currency is causing eurozone countries' economies to grind to a halt.

It commits vast amounts of fraud every year.

It exploits third world countries with its economic policies.

It spends billions on propaganda to promote still further E.U. integration.

Many of its staff are immune from prosecuton, including its Police Officers - a shameful, shameful situation which we shall, sooner or later, live to regret

It sticks its logo on our cards, on our driving licences, over our town halls, even village signs, and boasts of its funding of regional and community projects (having taken the money from us in the first place!)

It is removing our weights and measures - using the creation of new crimes to do so.

And much more to which I strongly object.

I liken amending a few illegal metric signs to taking back a hill after the enemy has already taken half your country.

Perhaps it will be a 'Pegasus bridge' moment, who knows?

<<
My experience in South Africa where the law on metrication was firmly enforced was that people (customers and shop-keepers alike) recognised that by enforcing the metrication laws, the Government was keeping a level playing field - what matterde was price and quality, not labelling.
>>

Martin, if each shopkeeper were allowed to (correctly) use whatever units he wished, why would this not be considered a level playing field?

Bud wrote

<<
Martin, if each shopkeeper were allowed to (correctly) use whatever units he wished, why would this not be considered a level playing field?
>>

Bud - how many different sets of units do you propose - you must have seen all the units that XCOLE posts fronm time to time. Do you really want to go down that road? COme on, get real - most people have enough trouble with one set of untis, never mind two!

Martin wrote

<<Bud - how many different sets of units do you propose - you must have seen all the units that XCOLE posts fronm time to time. Do you really want to go down that road? COme on, get real - most people have enough trouble with one set of untis, never mind two!
>>

Unless I'm mistaken Martin, I think the idea is to let everyone to make a choice of a single system and stick to it, not use multiple systems. You are deliberately tossing in irrelavancies and obfuscations (at least I assume you do understand what's being said and are doing it deliberately).

The idea that using metric and imperial together will spawn loads of new unit types is absurd.

You are talking like something that should be avoided when it's actually happening succesfully already! Have you been to a shop recently, martin? Have you ever seen a "third option"?

<<
Bud - how many different sets of units do you propose - you must have seen all the units that XCOLE posts fronm time to time. Do you really want to go down that road? COme on, get real - most people have enough trouble with one set of untis, never mind two!
>>


Martin, if every shopkeeper were to use his own choice of units, the marketplace would soon decide naturally which units would survive and which wouldn't. Stores would be forced to switch to the standard units or risk losing customers. Customers would be forced to switch to the standard units in order to be able to understand prices. The natural market forces would result in one set of units eventually emerging. No government intervention would be necessary.

Bud, Can you name a country in which market forces have been relied upon to determine the set of units used, rather than government intervention?

<<
Martin, if every shopkeeper were to use his own choice of units, the marketplace would soon decide naturally which units would survive and which wouldn't. Stores would be forced to switch to the standard units or risk losing customers. Customers would be forced to switch to the standard units in order to be able to understand prices. The natural market forces would result in one set of units eventually emerging. No government intervention would be necessary.
>>

That is what happened in France - the multitude of measurements and government inaction was one of the causes of the French Revolution.

re (martin): "...the multitude of measurements and government inaction was one of the causes of the French Revolution".


REPLY: ...from page 144 of Martin's new two-volume work: "Causes of the French Revolution Re-Evaluated: How Different Weights of the Livre Toppled the French Monarchy and Aristocracy" (ISBN 0-5280-2240-12), price £24.60

<<
Bud, Can you name a country in which market forces have been relied upon to determine the set of units used, rather than government intervention?
>>

Yes, the United States.
I know that there were spotty state-by-state regulations, but these were inconsistent and not well enforced. Even today, both imperial and metric are perfectly legal, and either one may be listed first as the primary unit.
Market forces have established metric as the primary units for alcoholic beverages, although imperial labelling is also perfectly legal.
As an example, consider Shell's attempt some years ago to start selling petrol by the litre. They were soon forced to revert to gallons. If they had stubbornly refused, they would have probably gone out of business.



Martin, the situation in France before the revolution was quite different. They had many units with the same name and different values. That is different from what you have in Britain today.

Andy asked
"Bud, Can you name a country in which market forces have been relied upon to determine the set of units used, rather than government intervention?"

Bud replied
"Yes, the United States."

3 points....

1) U.S. Constitution: Article I Section 8 includes

"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures"

2) The Metric Act of 1866

3) How about NIST?

"Today we take it for granted that when we buy a pound of hamburger, whether we are in New York, St. Louis, or California, we will be getting the same amount of product for our money. A hundred years ago consumers could not be so sure that a "pound" in one state was the same as a "pound" in another. Concerns about the uniformity of weights and measures standards and laws from state to state led the National Bureau of Standards to convene the first "Conference on the Weights and Measures of the United States" in January 1905. This first meeting laid the foundation for the creation of the National Conference on Weights and Measures (NCWM), which continues to this day. The NCWM is the primary mechanism used by NIST to fulfill its responsibility, as stated in its Organic Act, to work with the states "in securing uniformity in weights and measures laws and methods of inspection."

Yeah, Bud. You have a choice in the US (between 2 systems, as all will agree) but I would suggest that government intervention has been required to fix the values of each unit within each system.

Bud wrote

<<
Martin, the situation in France before the revolution was quite different. They had many units with the same name and different values. That is different from what you have in Britain today.
>>

Yes - and since the 1820's it has been an offence to use the US gallon for retail trade. (The Imperial gallon was phased out in favour of the litre in recent years).

Bud: "Martin, if every shopkeeper were to use his own choice of units, the marketplace would soon decide naturally which units would survive and which wouldn't. Stores would be forced to switch to the standard units or risk losing customers. Customers would be forced to switch to the standard units in order to be able to understand prices. The natural market forces would result in one set of units eventually emerging. No government intervention would be necessary."

Stan: Interesting. So when it comes down to it it's not a matter choice of after all. We are all "forced" into using particular units whether we like it or not.

So lets be realistic shall we? There is no such thing as choice when it comes to units of measurement. We have to co-operate, we have to use the same language.

Before anyone comes back and says that at least market forces are the choice of the people just remember that Market forces don't always produce the best result. Market forces have resulted in the dominance of MicroSoft in the world of desktop operating systems but it'a well known that there alternatives which are technically superior.

<<<So lets be realistic shall we? There is no such thing as choice when it comes to units of measurement. We have to co-operate, we have to use the same language.>>>

Well said.

Choice is not the issue at all. Being against the principle of enforcement of units is only the excuse used by the imperial fans to not change from the system they prefer. They accepted the same enforcement when their favoured units were the ones being enforced.

Any realist knows that a degree of enforcement is required regarding weights and measures.

Hmmm the old "road force" argument yet again!

"Market forces have resulted in the dominance of MicroSoft in the world of desktop operating systems but it'a well known that there alternatives which are technically superior"

Bit like measurement systems outside of the US, UK, Canada and many Carribean Islands then!! ;-)

Congress certainly does have the power to set the standards of weights and measures, but it is only in recent times that it has used it. For the first 60 years or so, there was little or no federal legislation on the topic. Even today, there is no serious effort to enforce labelling requirements, because most people obey voluntarily and the few that don't aren't noticed.

The Metric Act of 1866 simply ALLOWED metric to be used. I don't think it was illegal before, it just wasn't explicitly legal.

<<
A hundred years ago consumers could not be so sure that a "pound" in one state was the same as a "pound" in another.
>>
If anyone has any information regarding a different "pound" used anywhere in the US at any point in time, I would like to see it.



<<
Yeah, Bud. You have a choice in the US (between 2 systems, as all will agree) but I would suggest that government intervention has been required to fix the values of each unit within each system.
>>
Not necessarily. Most imperial units were defined in Britain and exported to America, including the US gallon. The US government never redefined anything, except the bushel and maybe a couple others that were used for specialised purposes. The SI units were defined by scientists. I don't think there has ever been more than one foot, ounce, gallon, etc. in use in the US.




<<
Yes - and since the 1820's it has been an offence to use the US gallon for retail trade.
>>
Is it an offence even if it is identified as such? I have seen some things in UK gallons here, or Canadian gallons as they are more commonly known.



<<
Market forces don't always produce the best result. Market forces have resulted in the dominance of MicroSoft in the world of desktop operating systems but it'a well known that there alternatives which are technically superior.
>>
So do you think that the government should have the authority to decide which product is superior and then force people to use it?

Bud

It's getting late over here, so just a quick reply - I'll expand on it tomorrow if you want....

"For the first 60 years or so" - remind me when the constitution was ratifed! 1790-1800ish?

Look at the contributions of John Quincy Adams & Thomas Jefferson to US Metrology - there is a great quote by one of them (Adams?)which applies to both of the world's great systems

Didn't the US actually sign the original "Convention of the Metre"? - unlike the UK, who only attended?

"A hundred years ago consumers could not be so sure that a "pound" in one state was the same as a "pound" in another" quote is from the NIST site - as you are a US citizen, why not email & ask - they are more likely to reply to you than me?

"Not necessarily. Most imperial units were defined in Britain and exported to America, including the US gallon."

In the same way, the US accepted their copies of the kilo & metre (from France) (I have no idea which numbered copies they got) and used them to define these weights/distances in the US

"So do you think that the government should have the authority to decide which product is superior and then force people to use it?"

I think that the Cubans make great cigars. Could I legally buy one (or even find one!) in your hometown?

re (Beranger): "I think that the Cubans make great cigars. Could I legally buy one (or even find one!) in your home town?"


REPLY: Well! Cigarsmokin' weights 'n measures enforcers. Yee-hah! Whatever next?

Come on Tony....

King Edward or a dark Cuban beauty? Which would you prefer? ;-)

<<
"For the first 60 years or so" - remind me when the constitution was ratifed! 1790-1800ish?
>>
That's right: 1787 to be exact. There was no major legislation concerning units of measurement till after the Civil War.

<<
Didn't the US actually sign the original "Convention of the Metre"? - unlike the UK, who only attended?
>>
Yes, they signed it, but they didn't seriously bother implementing it. In fact, they really still haven't.

<<
"A hundred years ago consumers could not be so sure that a "pound" in one state was the same as a "pound" in another" quote is from the NIST site - as you are a US citizen, why not email & ask - they are more likely to reply to you than me?
>>
The NIST site, like most other government websites, is more propaganda than anything else. They said "so sure". Of course, no one can ever be absolutely sure. Perhaps it is possible to be more sure today than a hundred years ago.

<<
In the same way, the US accepted their copies of the kilo & metre (from France) (I have no idea which numbered copies they got) and used them to define these weights/distances in the US
>>
My point was that the American weights and measures were standardised before the metric system was introduced.


<<
"So do you think that the government should have the authority to decide which product is superior and then force people to use it?"
I think that the Cubans make great cigars. Could I legally buy one (or even find one!) in your hometown?
>>
Trade with other countries is an entirely different issue. Let me ask differently. Should the government decide that a product cannot be produced/sold because they feel that it is inferior?
On a side note, yes, you can buy Cuban cigars here. It is illegal to import them, but as far as I know there is no prohibition on selling them.

re (Beranger): "Come on Tony...King Edward or a dark Cuban beauty? Which would you prefer?"


REPLY: It surely depends on de answer to de question - for what purpsoe? Runnin' de country, or an evenin' out?