"End the nonsense of prosecuting traders for selling in pounds and ounces" is a direct quotation from the 'Civil Liberties' section of the official Manifesto of the VERITAS Party, issued today at 11am.

VERITAS invites all who support the principle of freedom of choice in relation to selling in pounds and ounces - and those who oppose the compulsory obliteration of British weights and measures - to support its candidates in the upcoming General Election

I hope they will also be ending the nonsense of Britains official system of measurement being illegal on road signs.

Andy

So you will no doubt be supporting any Party that will spend £1 billion-plus on converting all our million-plus road signs and will no doubt support a Party that will ban mothers from giving their babies' weights in pounds and ounces, ban the sale of 8 oz. steaks and ban height descriptions in feet and inches.

You'll be voting Labour then

Tony

May I ask what Veritas official manifesto policy is regarding the following 8 situations, and whether any of the following actions would be deemed illegasl.....

In addition, may I ask whether any breach of legislation should be subject to civil or to criminal proceedings?

1) A trader who wishes to advertise his hotel places a sign on private land (but visible from the road) stating "Hotel 1km"?

2) A trader who wishes to advertise his hotel places a sign on the verge of a road owned and maintained by the county council stating "Hotel 1km"?

3) A Council places a sign (not subject to any regulations) stating "Toilets 0.5km"

4) A publican decides to sell "Belhaven Best" (traditionally sold by pints) in litres?

5) A restaurant owner decides to serve 500g steaks?

6) A restaurant owner decides to use the "troy pound" to describe his "1lb steaks"

7) A publican decides to use the US pint to sell "Michelob Ultra" on Draught?

8) A hotel on a private road puts up a warning sign stating "max height 2m" and a 2.5m vehicle hits it?

Tony

Please include in your platform a promise to abolish the sale of Marmite. The continued ingestion of this product could lead to distasterous social consequences.

You know full well that the troy pound hasn't been legal for over a hundred years, Ber.

<<<So you will no doubt be supporting any Party that will spend £1 billion-plus on converting all our million-plus road signs and will no doubt support a Party that will ban mothers from giving their babies' weights in pounds and ounces, ban the sale of 8 oz. steaks and ban height descriptions in feet and inches.

You'll be voting Labour then >>>

I wasn't aware of any plans by Labour to do this.

Actually they won't be getting my vote. I may be in favour of metrication, but I see it as a matter of relatively low importance.

PS. I look forward to your answers to Berangers questions.

Can someone point me to the car that has his milometer gauged in kilometres?

I'm just wondering how I might be able to find a hotel that is directed in a measurement literally no-one uses.

SteveH wrote

<<
Can someone point me to the car that has his milometer gauged in kilometres?
>>

don't you mean "odometer"

<<<Can someone point me to the car that has his milometer gauged in kilometres?>>>

If you see a sign saying Hotel 1 mile, do you look at your milometer to measure out the mile?

Can someone point me to the person who has no idea how far a kilometre is?

re (Beranger):

"Tony

May I ask what Veritas official manifesto policy is regarding the following 8 situations, and whether any of the following actions would be deemed illegasl.....

In addition, may I ask whether any breach of legislation should be subject to civil or to criminal proceedings?

1) A trader who wishes to advertise his hotel places a sign on private land (but visible from the road) stating "Hotel 1km"?

2) A trader who wishes to advertise his hotel places a sign on the verge of a road owned and maintained by the county council stating "Hotel 1km"?

3) A Council places a sign (not subject to any regulations) stating "Toilets 0.5km"

4) A publican decides to sell "Belhaven Best" (traditionally sold by pints) in litres?

5) A restaurant owner decides to serve 500g steaks?

6) A restaurant owner decides to use the "troy pound" to describe his "1lb steaks"

7) A publican decides to use the US pint to sell "Michelob Ultra" on Draught?

8) A hotel on a private road puts up a warning sign stating "max height 2m" and a 2.5m vehicle hits it?"


REPLY: The VERITAS approach to many things could be characterised as 'live and let live', unless by doing so you harm others.

Against that background, I offer the following personal comments in reply to your questions - they do not represent official party policy:

1. He appears to be entitled to do so on his own land and there does not appear to be any breach of any law - so long as the planning authority are happy with it, fine by me

2. This would probably come under the Traffic Signs and General Directions Regulations 2002 and other planning consents needed for signs along the highway. It might be either illegal or it might be refused planning permission

3. Such a sign would almost certainly be on a highway of some kind, whether road, street or footpath, therefore this sign *would* be illegal under TSRGD 2002 (as, for example, the Lee Valley Park Authority eventually accepted - they are now erecting signs in miles instead of kilometres along all their footpaths after ARM supporters removed one hundred-plus illegal metric signs in the park three years ago)

4. Well, if he wants to, fine. It already happens in a few London pubs and wine bars, anyway - plus that Austrian lady who sells the 'steins' of lager which she measures in litres

5. Already happens in a few places, usually 200g. - a blatant downsizing of 27 grams from a decent 8 oz. steak. I never take my wife to a restaurant which advertises its steaks in grams

6. Why not? - as long as he *says* clearly that it's a 'troy pound', otherwise that would mislead the public

7. I don't know what a U.S. pint is, without looking it up in Vivian Linacre's 'Guide to Customary Measures' but assuming it's *less* than a British pint, then that should not be allowed as it could amount to a deception. If it's more, then why not? - except he should state precisely how much extra customers will be getting

8. What, hits the sign? - or hits the bridge or whatever? If you mean hits an overhead obstruction, probably the driver and his insurers would be liable for having ignored the warning sign, though I wouldn't have a great deal of sympathy with the hotel owner

SteveH:
<<Can someone point me to the car that has his milometer gauged in kilometres?
>>

Martin:
<don't you mean "odometer">

SteveH: No - I meant milometer. You have been in this country long enough to realise that is what people call them. I have a special policy on my mini and the form says "write milometer reading here:". You see, I can only put 3000 miles on my milometer per year.

Please don't come back with "if there was an accident your policy won't be....etc etc" as in REAL REAL LIFE it will not be the case!




<<
If you see a sign saying Hotel 1 mile, do you look at your milometer to measure out the mile?>>

Believe it or not I have been in such a situation.
I had to find an office that was 4 miles from a junction.
It was well hidden so I had to reset my milometer and when 3.8 came up I slowed to find it.
I actually drove straight passed it to start with but that's besides the point!



<<Can someone point me to the person who has no idea how far a kilometre is?>>

Inside these boards? no.
Outside these boards? plenty!

Andy wrote

<<
Can someone point me to the person who has no idea how far a kilometre is?
>>

I don't know if SteveH knows how far a kilometre is, but in case he doesn't, the two towers on the M4 suspension bridge that separates England from Wales is just about one kilometre (988m).

In addition the central span of the Forth Road Bridge is just over one kilometre (1008m).

And there's me thinking it was 1000 metres.

<<<3. Such a sign would almost certainly be on a highway of some kind, whether road, street or footpath, therefore this sign *would* be illegal under TSRGD 2002 (as, for example, the Lee Valley Park Authority eventually accepted - they are now erecting signs in miles instead of kilometres along all their footpaths after ARM supporters removed one hundred-plus illegal metric signs in the park three years ago)>>>

Hold on a minute. You cannot say this sign would not be allowed because it is illegal under current regulations!!! Under current regulations selling in pounds and ounces is illegal! Your party's policy on pounds and ounces is to remove the legislation MAKING them illegal, so surely the same would be applied here (unless of course your policies are more anti-metric than "live and let live")

<<<I never take my wife to a restaurant which advertises its steaks in grams>>>

I'm lost for words. Does anyone else here actually not buy something/go somewhere because of the measurements they choose to use!?

<<Can someone point me to the person who has no idea how far a kilometre is?

Inside these boards? no.
Outside these boards? plenty!>>>

Rubbish! Everyone knows 'roughly' how far a kilometre is. Almost everyone would know that it is 1000m. Even people whoi didn't know that, would have a vague idea.

<<I'm lost for words. Does anyone else here actually not buy something/go somewhere because of the measurements they choose to use!?>>

If there are two suppliers of something i want and one gives unit choice and the other does not I will ALWAYS go to the one that gives me unit choice.
One of the reasons for me shopping at tesco.

<< Rubbish! Everyone knows 'roughly' how far a kilometre is.>>

Hmmm, I think you might be being misled by your participation here.

<< Almost everyone would know that it is 1000m. Even people whoi didn't know that, would have a vague idea.>>

I have asked people how many metres in a kilometre and I've had varying answers from:-

1) I dunno, about 100? (clueless)
2) 1000, obviously!! (clued up)
3) I work in miles, mate. (True Brit!)

To give you the balance - person number (1) also didn't know how many feet there were in a yard!

<<
Such a sign would almost certainly be on a highway of some kind, whether road, street or footpath, therefore this sign *would* be illegal under TSRGD 2002
>>

It would not be illegal. It might be unlawful insofar that it is not of a type authorised by the TSRGD, but the TSRGD give the Minister authority to retrospectively authorise it, thereby making it lawful.

Oh for Gods sake, not that argument again!


"I say potatoes ....etc"

<<<If there are two suppliers of something i want and one gives unit choice and the other does not I will ALWAYS go to the one that gives me unit choice.
One of the reasons for me shopping at tesco.>>>

I'm happy to say that when I'm not on this messageboard I'm not obsessed with measurement, and am free from such restrictions.

<<<Hmmm, I think you might be being misled by your participation here.

I have asked people how many metres in a kilometre and I've had varying answers from:-

1) I dunno, about 100? (clueless)
2) 1000, obviously!! (clued up)
3) I work in miles, mate. (True Brit!)>>>

I said they know *roughly* how far a kilometre is, not that they work in them. More people know how many metres are in a km, than know how many yards in a mile.







martin
Re: "End the nonsense of prosecuting traders for selling in pounds and ounces" April 15 2005, 3:31 PM


<<
Such a sign would almost certainly be on a highway of some kind, whether road, street or footpath, therefore this sign *would* be illegal under TSRGD 2002
>>

It would not be illegal. It might be unlawful insofar that it is not of a type authorised by the TSRGD, but the TSRGD give the Minister authority to retrospectively authorise it, thereby making it lawful.

Ignore the last bit of my post. Accidentally copied from above

<<
I'm happy to say that when I'm not on this messageboard I'm not obsessed with measurement, and am free from such restrictions.
>>

I'm not saying it would be my number one objective. That would be price.




<<<<martin
Re: "End the nonsense of prosecuting traders for selling in pounds and ounces" April 15 2005, 3:31 PM


<<
Such a sign would almost certainly be on a highway of some kind, whether road, street or footpath, therefore this sign *would* be illegal under TSRGD 2002
>>

It would not be illegal. It might be unlawful insofar that it is not of a type authorised by the TSRGD, but the TSRGD give the Minister authority to retrospectively authorise it, thereby making it lawful.>>>>





Until I read your follow-up post I got confused at that! It wasn't "like you".

I thought you had turned into Martin's puppet (or muppet) ;-)

LOL!

I did the very same thing recently! Can be quite unfortunate sometimes!

re (Andy): "Your party's policy on pounds and ounces is to remove the legislation MAKING them illegal, so surely the same would be applied here (unless of course your policies are more anti-metric than "live and let live")


REPLY: No. Let's add 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' as another of our principles. It would follow that if we have a good system of road signs, which everyone in Britain understands, there is no reason to change it.

As we are talking about safety on our roads, Imperial only should prevail. Oh, and by the way, that would be democratic as well, another of our key principles. In the April 2002 survey by ICM on the subject, 86% of people surveyed wanted to keep miles and yards - and only 8% wanted to switch to kilometres and metres.

Under Labour, the Department for Transport has repeatedly said that it wanted to convert all Britain's road signs 'as soon as 50% of drivers are metric educated'.

They originally set a target date of 2006 for this conversion, though it appears to have been put back to 2011 - far too late for the likes of Lord Howe and the two-men-and-a-dog outfit the UK Metric Association, of course

I'll bite my tongue & not comment!!!!

Today's Scotsman

http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=396272005

"Kilroy-Silk blames media for Veritas party's election lows

JAMES KIRKUP
POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT


ROBERT Kilroy-Silk launched his Veritas party’s election manifesto yesterday with the striking admission that he didn’t have a hope of victory.

Denouncing what he called "liberal fascists", including the main political parties and the media, Mr Kilroy-Silk conceded that Veritas’s platform of ending all political asylum and levying a single 22 per cent rate of tax was unlikely to win them any seats.

The former chat-show host also repeated his previous condemnations of the "nonsense of multiculturalism", and conservative strands of Islam in particular.

Veritas claims to be standing candidates in 80 seats across Britain, although a chronic lack of money may cause many to drop out.

When he stormed out of the UK Independence Party last year, many had expected Mr Kilroy-Silk to take at least one of his wealthy financial backers with him. Yesterday, he admitted none had followed him, and Veritas candidates are funding their own campaigns.

That, along with the party’s highly eccentric collection of members and opinions, makes it extremely unlikely that it will be able to achieve the same sort of impact that UKIP did in last summer’s European Parliament elections.

But far from blaming his party’s lack of money, organisation or even coherent policies for its dim prospects, Mr Kilroy-Silk said the media was responsible.

"Most of us won’t get elected. We haven’t got a chance," Mr Kilroy-Silk told journalists.

"Every single one of you personally vilifies me," he said."

Bryan

"You know full well that the troy pound hasn't been legal for over a hundred years, Ber."

Yeah, and the Imperial pound hasn't been legal (except as a supplementary unit) for 5 years.

I think it is fair to ask Tony how many old units Veritas want to bring back.

Tony

I accept that your answers are your own and may not represent party policy.

4 points....

1) Correct me if I have you wrong, but you appear to favour a situation where the UK uses 3 different systems of measurement (metric, avoirdupois & troy), but would ban a foreign system (US Customary)

Does this not go against the Magna Carta?

2) I note that you state that you do not know whether a US pint is greater or less than an imperial pint. I find that hard to believe, considering your "expert" knowledge of measurements used 2500 years ago.

Do you consider that every Veritas voter will be aware of the exact value of the Troy pound? Can you provide polls showing support for the Troy Pound's reintroduction?

3) Do you also avoid restaurants that blatantly "upsize" 227g (8oz) to 250g?

4) Sorry!!!!! I obviously meant "the driver hit the bridge" - not the sign

Steve

"SteveH: No - I meant milometer. You have been in this country long enough to realise that is what people call them. I have a special policy on my mini and the form says "write milometer reading here:". You see, I can only put 3000 miles on my milometer per year."

That only works out at 250 miles per month....... How far do you stay from the new job? Should I alert your local Trading Standards car clocking team???? :-) :-) :-)

re (Beranger): "Do you also avoid restaurants that blatantly 'upsize' 227g (8oz) to 250g?"

REPLY: Bet you there aren't any. If you come across one, let me know

Another view of Robert Kilroy-Silk:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Kilroy-Silk: He leads - the others follow

He’s led the way on immigration, on crime, on travellers, on Europe – while the Tories, Labour and the Liberal Democrats refuse to discuss the issues that matter. Today he leads on many other issues.

Robert Kilroy-Silk is ahead of the others. Look at his record:

Ahead of the others yesterday…

On Europe:

In 1975, Robert saw that the Common Market would lead to political union with Europe - and the loss of our independence. Then a Labour MP, he advised his constituents to vote to leave the E.E.C. He consistently voted in Parliament against giving more power to Brussels

On immigration:

On 11th September last year, in London, Robert was the first to call for Britain to adopt an Australian-style ‘points system’, based on need, to control mass immigration. Now the other parties agree

On crime:

On his show and in his newspaper column - long before the Tony Martin case - Robert was the first to call for intruders to lose all their legal rights the moment they entered on property intending to steal

On travellers:

In November, Robert visited a travellers’ camp in Bulwell in the East Midlands. They had severely damaged local playing fields and equipment, costing the Council tens of thousands of pounds. He called for travellers to be prosecuted for illegally occupying land and to obey planning laws like everyone else. Others now agree with him

Ahead of the others today…

On multiculturalism and the British way of life:

Earlier this year, Robert said: “We must end the nonsense of multiculturalism. We may be multiracial, multiethnic and multi-faith, but we must be one culture. We must strenuously defend British culture and keep the British way of life”

On asylum:

Robert says that asylum-seekers who travel to Britain via another safe county should return there under U.N. refugee laws. He says Britain should only take its fair share of refugees and shut down the ‘asylum industry’, using the savings to help the poor at home and abroad

On the Human Rights Act:

Robert says, with characteristic clarity, that we must scrap the Human Rights Act, which has benefited criminals, terrorists, travellers who flout planning laws and other wrong-doers. Others just talk tamely of ‘reviewing’ the Act. VERITAS will repeal it

On England:

Robert has been the first politician to say that England needs its own Parliament to run English affairs. He says English MPs at Westminster should meet to decide matters affecting England

Vote VERITAS - the Party that leads

Printed and promoted by Michael Harvey, Secretary, VERITAS, 109-110 Bolsover Street, LONDON W1W 5NT Tel: 020 7631 3757 www.veritasparty.com - Issued March 2005

re (Beranger): "1) Correct me if I have you wrong, but you appear to favour a situation where the UK uses 3 different systems of measurement (metric, avoirdupois & troy), but would ban a foreign system (US Customary)...Does this not go against the Magna Carta?"


REPLY: Yes, you are incorrect. I told you I have no problem with steins of lager sold by an Austrian lady in litres, nor for that matter car engine sizes sold in c.c.s, nor horse races run over furlongs.

If you read Magna Carta carefully - a worthwhile exercise in itself - you'll see that it insists on one *standard* for things like a pound and a foot through the country of England i.e. so that you didn't get different weights and measures when you moved from one part of the country to another

re (Beranger): "Do you consider that every Veritas voter will be aware of the exact value of the Troy pound? Can you provide polls showing support for the Troy Pound's reintroduction?"


REPLY: Two questions not worthy of being answered

re (Beranger): "Yeah, and the Imperial pound hasn't been legal (except as a supplementary unit) for 5 years..."


REPLY: What an extraordinary statement. The Imperial pound is lawful for use when talking about one's weight, or the weight of new babies, when advertising products in Tescos and other shops, when selling burgers, when sellig steaks in restaurants, when giving out the weight of boxers, the weight of horses, the weight of fish in angling competitions etc. etc.

'Hasn't been legal'?

Beranger, engage brain before posting

So we have a new political party which promotes itself as Ultra-British. It wants to preserve what is left of the British system of units but pays little respect to the English language.

How many people in the UK speak or understand Latin?

Where is the greatest concentration of speakers of Latin in the world?

<<
Where is the greatest concentration of speakers of Latin in the world?
>>

Probably the Vatican Conclave now meeting.

Ah! Ha! Yes.

Now think of a semi-secret organisation, which tries to influence societies all over the world. (In fact, at during the last years of Franco 10 out of his 19 cabinet members belonged to this group.)

That's right - "Opus Dei". (In case you missed it - that's a Latin name)

Could it be that Veritas is a front?

Caveat emptor.

Btw: There have been two popes called Martin.
Martin I and Martin IV. There was no Martin II or Martin III.
I don't want people who can't count, messing with UK measurements.

Tony said

"'Hasn't been legal'?

Beranger, engage brain before posting"

Such nit-picking!!!!

I'll rephrase my original post

<<<Yeah, and the Imperial pound hasn't been legal for trade use as defined in the Weights & Measures Act 1985 (except as a supplementary unit) for 5 years.>>>

"The Imperial pound is lawful for use when talking about one's weight, or the weight of new babies, ........... , when selling burgers, when sellig steaks in restaurants, when giving out the weight of boxers, the weight of horses, the weight of fish in angling competitions etc. etc."

Not one of these weight indications constitutes trade use under the Weights & Measures Act 1985. As far as I'm concerned, they are legal, and (contrary to Tony's usual scaremongering!!!!) will remain legal after 1/1/2010

You may notice that I snipped a bit from Tony's post and replaced it with dots. The snipped bit was "when advertising products in Tescos and other shops"

An argument can be made that Tony's interpretation of the Price Marking Order may be correct. Personally, I disagree with his viewpoint. As far as I am aware, it has not as yet been tested in court.

Tony Bennett:
"So you will no doubt be supporting any Party that will spend £1 billion-plus on converting all our million-plus road signs and will no doubt support a Party that will ban mothers from giving their babies' weights in pounds and ounces, ban the sale of 8 oz. steaks and ban height descriptions in feet and inches"

Stan:
Tony, can you tell us if this £ billion estimate of the conversion cost is being quoted in the Veritas campaign, either verbally or in writing?

If so are you prepared to back it up by reference to any kind of cost study?

Tony Bennett:
" ... and will no doubt support a Party that will ban mothers from giving their babies' weights in pounds and ounces, ..."

Stan:
Tony are you feeding crap like that to Robert Kilroy Silk? Does he believe you?

re (Stan): "Tony, can you tell us if this £ billion estimate of the conversion cost is being quoted in the Veritas campaign, either verbally or in writing? If so are you prepared to back it up by reference to any kind of cost study?"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


REPLY: No, this doesn't feature in any VERITAS literature; however, I have on many occasions on these boards given a carefully-costed estimate - including preparation costs, removal and replacement of signs, public edcuation, legislative changes etc. - for converting an estimated 1.5 million road and footpath signs in this country that will have to be changed. Look through the threads on 'Metric Transport Signs' and you will find my answers.

Is it so far-fetched to talk of mothers not being allowed to give their babies' weights in pounds and ounces when it will become a crime on 1 Janaury 2010 to display the world 'pound' or 'lb.' in a shop?

<<< Is it so far-fetched to talk of mothers not being allowed to give their babies' weights in pounds and ounces when it will become a crime on 1 Janaury 2010 to display the world 'pound' or 'lb.' in a shop? >>>

er, yes, that is extremely far-fetched.

<<<They originally set a target date of 2006 for this conversion, though it appears to have been put back to 2011 - far too late for the likes of Lord Howe and the two-men-and-a-dog outfit the UK Metric Association, of course>>>

I didn't realise there was actually a target date. I don't think theres any major rush to do it - the main thing is that there is at least some kind of plan.

<<
Is it so far-fetched to talk of mothers not being allowed to give their babies' weights in pounds and ounces when it will become a crime on 1 Janaury 2010 to display the world 'pound' or 'lb.' in a shop?
>>

These dates were agreed in by Mrs Thatcher in 1980!

When South Africa went metric, similar legislation was passed, except that the preparation time was very short. The result, metriction succeeded in SOuth Africa. I believe that Australia took a similar line. In Britain, we have agonised over the matter for over 30 years, hence the Very British Mess over our system of units.

re (martin): "These dates were agreed by Mrs Thatcher in 1980!"


REPLY: With respect, I disagree, martin, but could you please provide the evidence to back up your statement?

I thought that the date for compulsorily selling loose goods by the kilogram was only agreed finally in 1997 - then confirmed in a House of Commons report dated July 1999 - and that the regulations about banning the sight of the words 'pound' and 'lb.', 'ounce' and 'oz.' in British shops were surely made in 2001 or 2002?

Tony,

If you visit

http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/consleg/pdf/1980/en_1980L0181_do_001.pdf

you can get the text of the EU directive. The original directive was dated 20-Dec-1979 which actually required date that were earlier than those currently agreed. If you read the preamble to the directive, you will see that it was made having taken into account the views of the EU Commission, the European Parliament and the Social and Economic Committee [of the Council of Ministers]. Mrs Thatcher (or at any rate one of her ministers) represented Britain on the Committee.

Tnoy Bennett:
"Is it so far-fetched to talk of mothers not being allowed to give their babies' weights in pounds and ounces when it will become a crime on 1 Janaury 2010 to display the world 'pound' or 'lb.' in a shop?"

Stan:

Only if mothers offer their babies for sale. How far fetched to regard that?

Stan, it's truly sad and shocking what people will sell these days:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's an exotic vacation destination, with ancient cities, bold colors, legendary temples, remarkable beauty — and horrendous crimes that go on behind closed doors. Children, some as young as 5 years old, are being sold as slaves for sex. It's a shameful secret that's now capturing the attention of the world and the White House, a secret that has been exposed by Dateline's hidden cameras. Dateline ventured into this dark place, where sexual predators can gain access to terrified children for a handful of cash. How could this be happening? And how can it be stopped?

[advertisement]

Inside the world of child sex trafficking, each year, by some estimates, hundreds of thousands of girls and boys are bought, sold or kidnapped and then forced to have sex with grown men. Dateline’s investigation leads to the troubled and distant land of Cambodia. We reveal what “tourists,” like one American doctor, may be up to, and we'll take you inside a dramatic operation to rescue the children.

The night clubs of Bangkok and the windows of Amsterdam are among the most well-known destinations in what has become a multibillion-dollar industry: sex tourism. But the business is not all about adult prostitution. There are some places you might never have heard about, notorious places, the kind of places a sexual predator would be willing to travel halfway around the world to reach — destinations like a dusty village in Southeast Asia, where the prey is plentiful and easy to stalk.

Cambodia child sex tourism

Links and resources•

The Department of Homeland Security has a special e-mail address and toll-free hotline for the public to report suspected cases involving child sex tourism:
e-mail: operation.predator@dhs.gov
hotline: 1-866-DHS-2ICE (1-866-347-2423)

• International Justice Mission
Faith-based human rights group specializing in victims of sex trafficking and bonded labor.

• Cambodian Ministry of Women’s Affairs

• Royal Government of Cambodia

• U.S. Department of State
Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons

• Acting for Women in Distressing Circumstances (AFESIP)
Advocacy group for children and adolescents at risk that runs a group home in Cambodia for victims of sex trafficking

• United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF)
"Child Protection" section discusses the problem of trafficking in children

• Cambodian League for the Promotion and Defense of Civil Rights (LICADHO)
Cambodian group that advocates for human rights, focusing on women and children in Cambodia

• ECPAT International
International child advocacy group focusing on the problems of child prostitution, child pornography and trafficking of children for sex

• The Protection Project
Human rights law research institute at John Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS), Washington, D.C.

• International Labour Organization
Project to Combat Trafficking in Children and Women

• HumanTrafficking.Org

• International Organization for Migration, counter trafficking unit
Advice to governments dealing with tsunami refugees


They are children born into poverty and sold for sex. And while the thousands of men who flock here each year — many of them Americans — may think that they're involved in nothing more than prostitution, by any definition it is rape.

The small Buddhist country of Cambodia has a rich cultural heritage, but it has become a magnet for people who prey on the young and innocent. To follow their trail, we'll have to infiltrate their perverted world and pretend we're predators ourselves. It’s the only way we'll be able to see first-hand how serious the problem really is — so serious that President Bush told the United Nations it has become a top priority for his administration.Secretary of State Colin Powell is leading the administration's efforts and has a special office dedicated to the problem.

Chris Hansen: “Why has child sex trafficking become such an important issue for you and the Bush administration?”
Colin Powell: “Because it's the worst kind of human exploitation imaginable. Can you imagine young children, learning their ABCs or whatever the equivalent is in their language, being used as sexual slaves for predators? It is a sin against humanity, and it is a horrendous crime.”

On the front lines

To combat that crime, increasingly the administration has been turning to people like Gary Haugen, a former federal prosecutor who runs a human rights group called the International Justice Mission. Haugen's group uses tactics that are considered controversial by some in the human rights community. He sends his investigators undercover to gather evidence of sex slavery in other countries, then takes the evidence to local authorities to persuade them to take action. Their work helped rescue hundreds of women and children around the world.

This time the target is Cambodia, and a Dateline team is headed there undercover.

After an 11,000-mile journey, our producer and cameraman set up shop in a hotel in the Cambodian capital, Phnom Penh, where they assemble our state-of-the-art equipment and rig themselves with hidden cameras.

Cambodia still suffers from a traumatic past. In the 1970s and ’80s, an estimated 2 million Cambodians died because of war, famine and a brutal dictatorship.

Now there are signs of recovery, thanks in part to the three-quarters-of-a-million foreign visitors who come to Cambodia each year. Our hidden cameras found that many tourists come not to visit the historic sites, but for another purpose. They go to a place like Martinis. It's a nightclub where young women outnumber men 10 to one, and many of the women are for sale.

Even though prostitution is illegal in Cambodia, finding a girlfriend for the night at Martinis takes just a few words, a few dollars, and a stroll out the door. But the action at Martinis pales compared with what else we're about to see in Cambodia.

Early one morning, our producer walks out the front door of the hotel and is greeted by a local motor bike taxi driver, who explains how easy it is to find girls for sale:

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• Children for sale: Undercover in Cambodia
A local motor bike taxi driver in Cambodia explains how easy it is to find girls for sale.
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Twelve-year-olds for sale. As shocking as that sounds, we're about to find out in some places that's considered old. Children who should be in elementary school are being exploited by adults.

A human rights investigator we'll call Robert is acting as a sex tour guide for a Dateline producer and cameraman posing undercover. The investigator is a former police detective from New Zealand. We agreed not to show his face or use his real name, because of his ongoing undercover work.

Robert has developed local contacts who know where to go and whom to see. All it takes is a quick phone call for this man to arrange a visit to a brothel in Phnom Penh.

The producers and investigators arrive across from what looks like a local café, but it's really a brothel. The owner is a woman who goes by the name Madam Lang. She's eager to do business. She leads the group through the café and up a back staircase to meet some girls for hire. And when she says they're girls, she means it literally: young girls, younger than we even imagined. And as an extra attraction, she says they're still virgins.

Trapped in tragedy

Many sex tourists come to Cambodia for exactly that reason, and they're willing to pay a premium. Madam Lang tells us her virgins go for $600, and for that price she says we can take a girl back to the hotel and keep her there for up to three days. When she brings out the girl, the 15-year-old looks paralyzed with fear.

A child's tragic journey into the sex trade often begins in a family struggling for survival. This is a country where the average income is less than $300 a year. Some children are sold by their own parents. Others are lured by what they think are legitimate job offers like waitressing, but then are forced into prostitution.

One 14-year-old, who was recently freed from a brothel, says she came from an extremely poor family in the country next door, Vietnam. She says when she was walking home from school one day, she was approached by a woman offering work in a café. But the café turned out to be a brothel. With no money and no way to get home, she didn't have much of a choice and was forced into sex with grown men, many of them American.

Tony said

"Is it so far-fetched to talk of mothers not being allowed to give their babies' weights in pounds and ounces when it will become a crime on 1 Janaury 2010 to display the world 'pound' or 'lb.' in a shop?"

The usual scaremongering. Please Tony, tell us which section of the Weights & Measures Act 1985 makes it illegal to mark "454g/1lb" on a pack of sausages after 1/1/2010.

Tony again

"I thought that the date for compulsorily selling loose goods by the kilogram was only agreed finally in 1997 - then confirmed in a House of Commons report dated July 1999 - and that the regulations about banning the sight of the words 'pound' and 'lb.', 'ounce' and 'oz.' in British shops were surely made in 2001 or 2002?"

The first regulations were made in 1994 - not 1997. There was further debate in parliament, but the 1994 regulations were not changed at that time.

The 1994 regulations made reference to removing imperial units status as supplementary units on (I think) 1/1/2005.

A further set of regulations were made in 2001. This extended the 1/1/2005(?) date until 1/1/2010.

Please Tony - point out where either the 1994 or 2001 regulations ban "the sight of the words 'pound' and 'lb.', 'ounce' and 'oz.' in British shops"

Tony

"re (Beranger): "Do you also avoid restaurants that blatantly 'upsize' 227g (8oz) to 250g?"

REPLY: Bet you there aren't any. If you come across one, let me know"

I'll barely even start to list them. Here are 2 in Edinburgh to start you off. Tell me if you want more proof. And please, please, please start answering questions honestly like I do.

http://www.caffelucano.co.uk/food/

http://www.5pm.co.uk/restaurantreservationbooking.cfm/Cardoon

Fifteen Pound for a steak !!!

I am not even going to ask for one, let alone more.

Come come, Berenger! You know it is far more common to see steaks and burgers in oz or fractions of pounds.

If not I'll eat my hat.
All 454g of it!

re (Beranger): "I'll barely even start to list them. Here are 2 in Edinburgh to start you off. Tell me if you want more proof. And please, please, please start answering questions honestly like I do.

http://www.caffelucano.co.uk/food/

http://www.5pm.co.uk/restaurantreservationbooking.cfm/Cardoon"


REPLY: Actually, 250g is probably a downsized 10 oz. steak. But no matter, the two restaurants you quote are the exceptions that prove the rule

Tony Bennett wrote

<<
REPLY: Actually, 250g is probably a downsized 10 oz. steak. But no matter, the two restaurants you quote are the exceptions that prove the rule
>>

No - it is probably an upgraded 8oz steak.

Since 250g lies between 8oz and 10oz, a 250g steak could apply to either. It is reasonable to assume that it applies to the one which is closer. It is easy to check that 250g is equal to 8.818oz. This poses begs the question - which is closer to 250g - 8oz or 10oz. The answer is to take the average of 8oz and 10oz and if 8.818 is less than the average, it is closer to 8oz, otherwise it is closer to 10oz.

Well there are three types of average:
1. The arithmetic average of 8 and 10 is 9.
2. The Geometric average of 8 and 10 is 8.944
3. THe harmonic average of 8 and 10 is 8.889

Whichever way you look at it, 250g is closer to 8oz than to 10oz.

Steve

Yeah, I would agree that imperial is more common when describing steak sizes.

I would point out that Tony stated "REPLY: Bet you there aren't any. If you come across one, let me know"

I've pointed out 2 so far. In one town. Don't I win the bet?

<< Well there are three types of average:
1. The arithmetic average of 8 and 10 is 9.
2. The Geometric average of 8 and 10 is 8.944
3. THe harmonic average of 8 and 10 is 8.889

Whichever way you look at it, 250g is closer to 8oz than to 10oz. >>


Don't listen to him Tony. He is just being mean.

Very Sharp, Buck, Very Sharp!

Too subtle for many?

Ok, I suppose that one was worth a groan.

It is frustrating though. How can I come up with something brilliant when people persist in talking about food? Steak, potatoes, swedes, turnips, parsnips, and to top it off - haggis.

I'll just lay low for a while, something is sure to turn up.

mmmm. food

re (Beranger): "I would point out that Tony stated 'REPLY: Bet you there aren't any. If you come across one, let me know'. I've pointed out 2 so far. In one town. Don't I win the bet?"


REPLY: Maybe. You will need to provide acceptable documentary evidence that the 250g. represents an 'upsizing' from an 8 oz. steak (227g.) as opposed to downsizing from a 10 oz. steak (283g.).

P.S. Do your restaurants do any other gram-size steaks? A four hundred-er perhaps, or a five hundred-er? - or may be a four hundred and fifty-er'?

Yes Tony.

You know just as well as I do that to describe a steak as 250g (10oz) would be just as illegal as to describe a steak as 8oz (1,000,000,000 tonnes)

Another very clever duplicitous answer though.

You asked me to point you at any restaurant that sold by 250g. I did. Twice. And one quotes prices for 600g steaks. Round that up (or down) as you will.

In the same spirit, I note that you stated that Veritas intended to field 80 candidates. I am horrified that they have blatantly downsized this promise - and did not inform the electorate! Is this deception?

The Veritas website lists only 64 candidates, but BBC reports only 62 - Is 80, 64 or 62 the actual "truth"?

And (may I suggest) - a party promoting British Unity should at least stand in all 4 parts of the united kingdom. Can you not raise £500 & 20 voters in Scotland?