Fascinating. The Irish now have road signs in metric and Gaelic.

Out with the old and in with the new, plus out with the new and in with the old.

It's Irish isn't it?

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Shawn Pogatchnik
Associated Press
Tue, Mar. 29, 2005

DUBLIN, Ireland - Tourists, beware: Your guide book may tell you the way to Dingle in County Kerry, but all the road signs will be pointing you toward An Daingean in Contae an Ciarrai instead.

In an age where many people bemoan English's growing global influence, advocates of local languages scored a small victory Monday when Ireland enacted a law outlawing English in road signs and official maps on much of the nation's western coast, where many people speak Gaelic.

Locals concede the switch will confuse foreigners in an area that depends heavily on tourism, but they say it's the price of patriotism.

``The change is nice for the locals, but if a stranger's coming in without one of the new Dingle maps, it can be quite difficult,'' said Sarah Brosnan, assistant manager of the Dingle Bay Hotel, which -- like most things connected to the tourist trade -- won't be changing its name.

In all, more than 2,300 towns, villages, fields and crossroads that traditionally had both English and Gaelic names have had their previously bilingual road signs changed to Irish only. The change chiefly affects three far-flung regions of the western seaboard called the Gaeltacht, which has long been the nation's last stand in the battle against English dominance.

There, English place names no longer have legal standing and may not be used in government documents or on official Ordnance Survey maps. The switch also applies in a few official Gaelic-speaking pockets of County Meath, northwest of Dublin, and County Waterford in the southeast.

On the breathtakingly beautiful Dingle peninsula in northwest County Kerry, signs with English spellings were taken down weeks ago, even in cases where the English versions remain popular in local parlance. Local villages still principally known as Ballydavid, Castlegregory and Ventry are now called only Baile na nGall, Caislean Ghriaire and Ceann Tra.

The new law says the government-run Ordnance Survey mapping agency must use only Gaelic names in the Gaeltacht area. The law does not apply to independent producers of maps, although they are expected to follow the policy.

The initiative has placed a new focus on the battle to preserve Gaelic in Ireland, where the language faded from everyday use in the 19th century, when Britain ruled the land.

Ever since Ireland won independence in 1922, successive governments have pursued a policy of mandatory Gaelic in schools and made it a requirement for many jobs, even though just 55,000 native Gaelic speakers remain in this country of 3.9 million.

The government's Irish language commissioner, Sean O Cuirreain, reported this month that the state was spending $650 million annually on teaching children Gaelic in elementary and high schools, yet too few students were attaining ``a reasonable command of the language'' after 13 years and 1,500 hours of instruction. He called for an urgent review of how Gaelic is taught.

I have no problem with that, after all, if I was Irish and spoke Gaelic, I'd feel the same way.

But if I was Irish and Gaelic-speaking, I might still prefer Irish traditional measurements

Whenever I've been to Ireland (that's "been to Ireland", Erin/John) I've always noted that the signs are Gaelic first, English second. This was before AND after the measurements were changed to foreign.

I'm all for the preservation of culture so I'm all for it.

Gaelic signposts do take a bit of getting used to though...

I remember getting hideously lost in one of the gaelic-signed areas a few years back!

Mind you, Irish signposting is so bad, it may as well be in arabic

Not to the Irish.

Still you could always shout

<<<Not to the Irish.>>>

Gaelic takes getting used to, or Irish signposting is bad?

<<
But if I was Irish and Gaelic-speaking, I might still prefer Irish traditional measurements
>>

Road sign information is best if it is univerally understood as this promotes road safety. That is one of the reasons why most countries use metric units. In Italy, for example, where "chillometri alle ora" is written "km/h" is understod by a German motorist who would read "km/h" as "kilometer in der stunde". By the way, the speedometers of both German and Italian cars read "km/h".

Apart from a conversion for an Irish mile, do you know where the Irish units of measure might be available? Also, are the traditional Irish measures the same throughout Ireland.

re (martin): Also, are the traditional Irish measures the same throughout Ireland?"

REPLY: What, like tarring and feathering, and knee-capping? The same both sides of the border, I'm told

Tony

Please elaborate.

Is one kneecap another of these early megalithic measures that you insist *relate* to the current definition of the yard? Or are you attempting to make cheap sectarian points?

<<
Road sign information is best if it is univerally understood as this promotes road safety.
>>

All information is best if it is universally understood. So what do you change and what do you leave?

Bud wrote

<<
All information is best if it is universally understood. So what do you change and what do you leave?
>>

1. All numeric values in metric units.

2. All units of measure in SI notation.

3. Picotgrams rather than text wherever possible.

4. Where text is neccessary, conventions be adopted to use words that are common to as many languages as possible - eg "STOP" and not "HALT". BTW "STOP" is used universally in all countries in Europe.

5. Town names on direction signs - use the language of the town itself (unless the spelling in the place where the sign is placed is sufficiently close). ie we should use Koln, Firenze rather than Cologne or Florence but Antwerp is OK because it is similar to Antwerpen. (I am at variance with most European countries regarding this proposal).

Point 5, Martin, seemed frankly bizarre.

Bryan, have you ever dirven in Belgium?

The following names apply to the same towns:

Anver/Antwerpen
Ghent/Gand
Leuven/Louvain
Liege/Luik/Lüttich
Lille/Rijsel (Belgian signposts to a French city)
Aachen/Aix le Chappel (Belgian signposts to a German city)


It can be disconcerting to see a town's name change every time one crosses a lingusitic border.

By the same token, within the UK I would be happy to see Caernarvon/Caernafon spelt one way only on road signs - and let the people in that town decide which way they prefer. (Steve - are you listening?).

I basicaly agree with you Martin. I've always wondered why it is necessary to have different names for a place in different languages.

Its understandable in some cases obviously, due to unpronouncability (is that a word?) but some like Vienna/Wien, Rome/Roma. Why?

eg going back to the gaelic signs in Ireland - if the town was known by its gaelic name by english-speakers, it would be no problem understanding the signposts. As it is the gaelic is so different to the english that english speakers will find it very difficult to understand the new gaelic-only signs.

The Irish have found a half-way solution to using two languages on their sign-posts. The English version of all town names is written on top in uppercase block letters while the Gaelic version is below the English version in mixed-case italics. The important thing is that this convention is consistent and as soon as one understands the convention, one can adapt to it.

I would of course object to seeing English and Gaelic names being used on alternate signposts as was done in South Africa - how many visitors to South Africa were aware that Cape Town and Kaapstad were the same place?

"""This was before AND after the measurements were changed to foreign."""


They changed the measurements FROM foreign to standard.

Has anyone given any thought to the inverse logic of signing in a local language?

Direction signs are meant to inform. If they are only in a local language only local people can read them. Yet local people need the help of such signs the least and visitors need them the most.

Does this not fit in with the "additional information" debate where imperial supporters suggest that marking an imperial equivalent gives the consumer additional information?

I would suggest that a English/Scots Gaelic signpost outside a Scottish village taught me a "correct" pronunciation.

The signpost said "Inveraray - Inbhir Aora"

I know that Gaelic pronunciation makes the correct pronunciation "In-ver-air-aah", rather than "In-ver-air-ai"

I won't even start on the Gaelic name for my home town, but it makes perfect sense too........