Terms such as FFU and DCO and other derogatory abbreviations for imperial/metric units are now on banned on this forum. Posters who use foul-language may be suspended without warning. Thank you.

That's odd... I know a Hong Kong girl. She came over in 1996 on a British passport. She doesn't know anything about metric. Before I met her, I had just assumed that Hong Kong was metric. A mistaken assumption, it seems.

Okay, now that's downright bizarre... there used to be an entire discussion thread here... the lack of which makes my previous comment look completely out of context.

What's bizarre is that someone from Hong Kong or indeed anywhere, even in the United States, wouldn't know anything about metric.

I presume they have electricity out there and medicines for example.

Medicines and electricity were only invented because metric existed.

Before the year 'metric' was formed there was no such thing as electricity and medicine.

(sorry, one daft idea deserves another)

<<Before the year 'metric' was formed there was no such thing as electricity and medicine.>>

Except for lightening and herbal remedies, you are essentially correct.

Electrical units of measure have always been tied to the metric system. The system that we have was developed by British scientists who made sure that 1Ax1V=1W (the Watt having already been defined for mechanical systems).

<<Electrical units of measure have always been tied to the metric system. >>

True, although there were two obsolete sets of electrical units derived from cgs somehow. The units for voltage were abvolt and statvolt. While I can still find conversion factors, I don't really understand them, or the relationship between them, and have never seen them used. The modern ampere is one of the fundamental SI units and all other units are dervived from it and "mechanical" energy considerations.

I think you've missed my point entirely.

Electricity does not exists just because metric does.

I prefer to think we were ignoring your point entirely. :)

New inventions are first the province of science, then engineering, then "the people." The fact that all electrical units, even the obsolete ones, were always metric does say something about how long science has been exclusively metric. It also says something about how much even determined imperialists like electricity if they are willing to use it in spite of its units.

I can remember when over-the-counter remedies at least were sold in grains, not milligrams, so pharmaceutical conversion is apparently more recent.

Re: Language July 13 2005, 2:12 PM

JS
The fact that all electrical units, even the obsolete ones, were always metric does say something about how long science has been exclusively metric.
.
metre
More to the point, has anybody ever complained about having to express their heater's output in watts, motors in watts, or amps? To think that metric measurements would be as accepted as those units are today had Britain taken up France's invitation to collaborate with it on a new measuring system is uplifting. On second thoughts, maybe it was a blessing in disguise that Britain didn't take up the offer otherwise the world would still be stuck with a measurement mess like Britain today?

My air conditioner is 12000 BTU/hr btw ;-)

<<It also says something about how much even determined imperialists like electricity if they are willing to use it in spite of its units>>

John, an imperialist is someone who believes in colonizing.

Critics claim that America is imperialist due to its involvement in Iraq.

Moreso..

When metric was introduced it did so through the might of Napoleon.

Who was an imperialist

"Go Figure" as you americans say

;-)

That's refrigeration, not electrical. Complain to ASHRAE.

Serious question, how does the UK denote air condition efficiency? Is it BTU/hr divided by watts, or thermal watts divided by electrical watts?
The first produces an "efficiency" around 10, the other around 3. US is completely BTU/(W*hr).

<<More to the point, has anybody ever complained about having to express their heater's output in watts, motors in watts, or amps? >>

It is misleading because my electrical heater outputs watts, while my furnace outputs BTU/hr, and to do it, uses natural gas sold in "cubic feet."
At least so they tell me. If I take the natural gas out of the pipe to measure, to see if I'm getting fair value, it always gets away from me and stinks up the house. :) How to compare, how to compare. That is the question, and mixed mess units make it hard.

Of course the solution is to rate my furnace burner in watts, and sell the gas in joules, standardizing the energy content per unit volume. (IN some places in the US, gas is sold by the the "therm," 100000 BTU, which is an Imperial way of doing the same thing.

I was in B&Q (a DIY warehouse store) last night.

All the air-cons were BTU/h

and

All the "plumbed in" heating things (like hot water fed towel warming rail) was BTU.

Electric heaters were in kW

<<I was in B&Q (a DIY warehouse store) last night.

All the air-cons were BTU/h
>>

Perhaps you don't have them. We have mandatory "efficiency ratings" on air conditioners for consumer comparison. Not only the cooling output, but output divided by input power as an efficiency measure.

However, in the US, it is BTU/hr/W. and 3.4 of the factor is just conversion from BTU/h to W. Metric countries use the cooling output in watts divided by the electrical power in watts for efficiency.

So perhaps my "daft idea" can be seen for what was actually intended. No one living today in a civilised society can literally escape metric units. Medicines are dispensed in micrograms and milligrams and electrical devices have user publicised metric units, watts volts and amps.

A quick show of hands, please. Who here is trying to 'escape' from metric units?

So Hong Kong Lady knows nothing about metric eh?

This is an official weather report for Hong Kong released via the government web site for broadcasters:

PRESS WEATHER NO. 233 - LOCAL WEATHER FORECAST

LOCAL WEATHER FORECAST


(FOR PRESS AND TO BE BROADCAST BY RADIO AND TELEVISION STATIONS
AFTER MIDNIGHT.)

HERE IS THE LATEST WEATHER BULLETIN ISSUED BY THE HONG KONG
OBSERVATORY.

GENERAL SITUATION
A TROUGH OF LOW PRESSURE BROUGHT RAINY WEATHER TO THE COASTAL AREAS
OF GUANGDONG AND THE NORTHERN PART OF THE SOUTH CHINA SEA YESTERDAY.
LOCALLY, IT WAS CLOUDY WITH SQUALLY SHOWERS YESTERDAY. MORE THAN 80
MILLIMETRES OF RAINFALL WERE RECORDED OVER LANTAU, TSUEN WAN AND
WESTERN DISTRICT OF HONG KONG ISLAND. UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE
SQUALLY SHOWERS, GUSTS EXCEEDING 70 KILOMETRES PER HOUR WERE RECORDED
AT TSIM SHA TSUI IN THE AFTERNOON. A RIDGE OF HIGH PRESSURE IS EXPECTED
TO BRING GENERALLY FINE WEATHER TO SOUTHEASTERN CHINA OVER THE WEEKEND
AND EARLY NEXT WEEK.

WEATHER FORECAST FOR HONG KONG (FRIDAY, 1 JUL 2005)

CLOUDY WITH SHOWERS AND ONE OR TWO SQUALLY THUNDERSTORMS.
TEMPERATURES WILL RANGE BETWEEN 25 AND 29 DEGREES.
MODERATE TO FRESH SOUTHERLY WINDS, GUSTY AT TIMES.

OUTLOOK : WEATHER IMPROVING OVER THE WEEKEND. FINE AND HOT NEXT WEEK.


FORECAST FOR MACAU TODAY:

CLOUDY WITH SHOWERS AND SQUALLY THUNDERSTORMS.
SHOWERS WILL BE HEAVY AT TIMES.
THE MINIMUM TEMPERATURE WILL BE ABOUT 24 DEGREES AND THE MAXIMUM
AROUND 28 DEGREES.
MODERATE TO FRESH SOUTH TO SOUTHEASTERLY WINDS, GUSTY AT TIMES.

What's that supposed to mean? China's metric. Hong Kong has been a Chinese possession since 1997.

Hongkong converted to metric years before the handover to Red China on July 1, 1997. I wrote this somewhere else too, I'm sure.

Could it be possible that a web page is the best way to visit a country again?
Take a tip:- scrap google and ask a Hong Kongian (?) or simply go there. EasyJet don't do Hong Kong, mind.

<<Metric countries use the cooling output in watts divided by the electrical power in watts for efficiency.>>

Some metric countries quote BTU/h fo AC units etc.

A bit like those douze pouce disque

"Take a tip:- scrap google and ask a Hong Kongian (?) or simply go there."

Well, I used to travel to Hong Kong every one to two months for years. I lived in mainland China and Taiwan for 6 years (1993-99), mostly Taiwan. I've been to Taiwan via HK and back again three times in the last 2 years, including in December 2004 and in January this year en route to and from Taiwan. Everything in HK was in metric before, during, and after the handover to Red China, and was for years before I'd ever set foot in the joint.

In all the time I was in and out of HK I can remember only one old Cantonese shop (that looked like it had been there since the Opium Wars, but then so many of many did) that displayed some obscure local vegetable for sale by the pound and was advertised with the "lb" abbreviation/
symbol, which was for use in some specialized cooking or herbal medicine. In fact, the first time I was in HK I was surprised at the lack of imperial units in use, it being a British colony and everything.

Otherwise, the Chinese sold loose food items by the jin/chin, or 500g in mainland China but 600g in Taiwan. The old, traditional jin/chin was 1.333lb in imperial, or closer to 600g which is why it is this weight in metric in Taiwan as it is closer to the old, traditional weight; but the Communists merely set it at half a kilo. Perhaps Steve should go there and see for yourself.

"Hongkong converted to metric years before the handover to Red China on July 1, 1997. I wrote this somewhere else too, I'm sure."

I'm sure too. . . I think it was in the phantom 'Language' thread that vanished right after I posted my response.

I will accept what you say as true. However that doesn't change the fact that this girl has no clue how long a kilometer is, and had never heard of a kilometer until after she moved to the States. But then, that is hardly indicative . . . I know a lot of people in the States who have no clue how many feet are in a mile, how many quarts are in a gallon, how many milliliters are in a liter, how many meters are in a kilometer, who the vice president, or the secretary of state are, nor who their Senators or Representatives are. Yet these same people know every little detail of Brad Pitt's relationship with Angelina Jolie. Go figure.

Bottom line, as with all people, for most things, I only know what I'm told. And that's not really knowledge; it's just belief. And I tend to believe people unless they give me reason to think otherwise.

Steve likes to run off his mouth about visiting a country as the only way to prove the way certain conditions are. Except that doesn't work if you actually have been there or know someone who has and either your's or their observations disagree with Steve's. Also, if you visit a country to far in the past, then your observations are someone dated. If you tell Steve you know someone from Hong Kong who doesn't know metric, he eats it up, but if you tell him you were there and didn't see anything else but metric, then you are the one to be disbelieved.

Maybe this girl was house bound most of the day and had no idea what the real world was like. No matter what, one girl is not proof of anything.

<<
I know a lot of people in the States who have no clue how many feet are in a mile, how many quarts are in a gallon, how many milliliters are in a liter, how many meters are in a kilometer
>>

You don't need to know any of those things in order to use the system effectively. When you see a sign saying speed limit 55 mph, you don't stop and try to figure out how many feet per second that is. Most Americans know the conversion factors they need to know (12 in.=1 ft, for example), but pro-metrics often point to the fact that they don't know the others as evidence that they don't "understand the system".

<<Well, I used to travel to Hong Kong every one to two months for years>>

Rip - that's exactly the type of contribution I like!
You HAVE been there, and infact quite often - so your contribution is far more convincing than the resident "Mr Google" who has to rely on insulting a woman he doesn't know by prentending that she didn't "get out much".

so - thank you Rip - for bring some clarity to the discussion based upon the fact that you physically travelled there and thus have a better angle on this than most of us.

So, who's assessment do you believe, RIP's or the girl's? It can't be both!

Quite all right, young Steve. I first lobbed in HK in Nov. 1993 while I was living in Zhongshan City in Guangdong/Canton, mainland China. The longest I ever stayed in HK was from February to March 1994, a month, after I left the mainland for the first time. After I travelled to Taiwan, I had to go to HK every 60 days to renew my visa until I got a 6-month working visa. And on it went. In Sept. 1998, 12 months before I left permanently, I had to get a new passport mostly because of the number of entry and exit stamps I got from going in and out of HK so often. I would usually stay 2 to 7 days at a time depending on finances and commitments. I was in Taiwan for the handover in 1997 and watched it on TV. I quite liked HK. It was a good break after Taiwan and southern mainland China. It's a pity the Brits left. They did an excellent job administering and governing HK. It was a very well run place, especially after the chaos and confusion of southern China and, to a slightly lesser extent, Taiwan.

Later this year I'll go for a short trip to Singapore and Thailand for some further rest and recreation. That's one good thing about Australia. It's close to Asia for short holidays if Asia's your cup of tea.

This girl from HK who doesn't know any metric is an anomaly. HK is metric because China is metric. Millions of Hongkongese are Cantonese from across the border with China, and most came over in the 1960s and early 70s during the worst excesses of the Cultural Revolution. And when China began to liberalize their economy from 1979 onward, it quickly became HK's largest trading partner, which it had always been up to the 1950s when Maoist orthodoxy had cut China off from the outside world and greatly isolated her from the outside world. HK really had to go metric if it was to trade with China. And the millions that fled to HK from China brought their metric-mindedness with them.

In China and Taiwan in addition to metric, they still use some Chinese customary measures, which as it happens are pretty close to imperial. The Chinese inch is only slightly larger than the English inch, and the 30-Chinese-inch yard (or it may be a 32-inch yard) is only slightly shorter than its English counterpart. The principal Chinese customary weight, the traditional jin/chin as I've said is only a 0.333lb more than the English pound, though now given metric values of 500g and 600g in mainland China and Taiwan respectively. In Taiwan, you get steel rules and tape measures with metric, Chinese customary inches, and imperial/US Customary inches on them. Even though Taiwan is metric, many Taiwanese companies would export certain products made to US-Customary-measure standard sizes because the US was and is Taiwan's major export market. And in the 1960s and 70s, though Taiwanese were taught metric in elementary school as their first and principal system of weights and measures, they were also taught US Customary weights and measures and traditional Chinese customary units in middle/high school as well. They were given conversion exercises to do over all three systems as part of their maths syllabuses. How do I know all this? Both from my observations and from the fact that my wife is Taiwanese.

You see Danny? Knowledge from experience - and more to boot - having a wife from a different country expands one's knowledge of that country. It's so much better than a return ticket to google.co.uk, it really is.

Talking of the Far East - I would love to go there.
I would have liked to have gone there when HK was British but I was too late.
I'd love to go to Japan too.

I wonder, Danny, could you post something about me eventually visiting Japan and only seeing imperial measures everywhere and proclaiming Japan to be imperial? Apart from the fact that I guess Japan is in fact "Imperial" in its status I am starting to enjoy your spats of pure fantasy about people you don't know and countries you haven't got the slightest knowledge about!

<<I wonder, Danny, could you post something about me eventually visiting Japan and only seeing imperial measures everywhere and proclaiming Japan to be imperial? >>

Not Daniel, but I've been there twice, each time for two "business weeks" (only one weekend of free time in the middle). The only imperial I saw was suppliers thinking they were being helpful to US customers by converting metric data and reporting it. Amnong other things, I had to teach them not to do that for us.

I have no idea if some farmer in the boondocks uses some Japanese tradional measure. I saw none in cities or at the companies I visited. (Of course if they wrote it in Japanese, it would have tricked me)

It was a play on words - check again

Re: Language July 15 2005, 12:45 PM

Rip
This girl from HK who doesn't know any metric is an anomaly. HK is metric because China is metric.

metre
Very interesting post Rip.
I travelled on a small Dutch Boat (Djiwangi) to Japan via the Suez Canal, India, Australia Philippines, Hong Kong many many moons ago. At that time other much more important matters occupied my mind, so I can't say whether tailors in Hongkong used inches for the obligatory suit at that time. Spending 4 months in Japan, I defenitely remember beer and Shintori Whisky in litres and ml, but am not sure about Sake. I know it came in big bottles, maybe 2 or 3 L. Never drank much of that stuff, couldn't stomach the raw eggs. Cars drove and still drive on the left. Roads were marked in km and so were distances given on trains. In these 4 months I saw only 5 Caucasians, 3 GI's (Occupation Forces) and 2 Yankee civilians. I am talking of days when yen were 1000 to the pound and a cheap ryokan cost 500 yen a night. God has it changed since then, but so has everything else. Ah, just writing about it warms my heart.

Metre: "I travelled on a small Dutch Boat (Djiwangi) to Japan via the Suez Canal, India, Australia Philippines, Hong Kong many many moons ago...."

Very interesting too, Metre. The "Djiwangi" sounds vaguely familiar to me. If you went by freighter from the UK/Europe to the Far East it really must have been a while ago. I haven't heard of any shipping line offering sea passage on a cargo vessel for many years, with one exception, a Polish line was offering travellers sea passage on their freighters from Sydney to Japan in the early 1990s.

Once you could get sea passage out of Sydney on quite a few shipping lines to quite a few destinations: all over the Far East, the Pacific islands, the western seaboard of North America, India, South Africa, Britain and Europe, just about everywhere and anywhere. Many travel or shipping agents could book you sea passage on a freighter; it was easy. A cousin of mine sailed on a freighter from Sydney to Long Beach in California in the early sixties. But unfortunately you can't do it now. The days of easy sea passage are long gone.

Rip

Metre: "Cars drove and still drive on the left."

Apparently the idea of driving on the left was Doug Macarthur's idea when he was occupation supremo in postwar Japan. He was an admirer of the British driving and road system and thought imposing it on the Japenese was a good idea. Good one, Doug! I can't vouch for the veracity of this, but it seems reasonable. I was told this by an American schoolmate of mine who had lived in Japan when his father was there on a company posting in the 60s.

Rip

And in the 1960s and 70s, though Taiwanese were taught metric in elementary school as their first and principal system of weights and measures, they were also taught US Customary weights and measures and traditional Chinese customary units in middle/high school as well. They were given conversion exercises to do over all three systems as part of their maths syllabuses. How do I know all this? Both from my observations and from the fact that my wife is Taiwanese.


"You see Danny? Knowledge from experience - and more to boot - having a wife from a different country expands one's knowledge of that country. It's so much better than a return ticket to google.co.uk, it really is."



I learned something you missed! He said the old systems were learned in the '60s and '70s with no mention of the times since. This would imply the teaching was dropped as an unnecessary exercise in futility. Like many things learned, such as foreign languages in the US, they are quickly forgotten the first year out of school. You forget what you don't use or need in the real world, especially if the structure is complex and difficult. Who would bother to retain the myriad of conversion factors needed to function in the English system?

I too visited Taiwan in the early '90s. I was in Taipei, Tai Chang and Kaohsiung for a month to 6 weeks at a time. The scales I saw in the street markets were kilograms only, The tape measures in both the factories and stores were millimetres only. The English language weather reports on the TV and the radio in the car (the driver always put on an English language station when I was in the car) were full metric. The roads and car instruments were signed only in metric. If the people knew English units it was never known by me as we always spoke metric.

Like many people in the developing world, the metric system is seen as a technological advancement and the road to prosperity.

Re: Language July 16 2005, 6:49 AM


Metre: "I travelled on a small Dutch Boat (Djiwangi) to Japan via the Suez Canal, India, Australia Philippines, Hong Kong many many moons ago...."

Very interesting too, Metre. The "Djiwangi" sounds vaguely familiar to me.

metre
No it wasn't a freighter, but a proper passenger ship. Not big, only about 10000 tonnes with 2 decks. "A" deck above water level for people who could afford it, and steerage mainly for poorer Chinese and other Asian nationalities.
Mind you it was not all that expensive for Westeners.
I have heard that later it travelled between Australia and Asian ports only. She also had a sister ship, called Djiluwah. Can't rember what their names meant.
Boy what a safe and friendly world it was then to travel in.

<<Like many things learned, such as foreign languages in the US, they are quickly forgotten the first year out of school. >>

So people in the US learn a non-English language at school in order to forget it when leaving school?

Here's another shovel.

Metre: "No it wasn't a freighter, but a proper passenger ship."

I see, Metre. You were travelling East of Suez on a passenger vessel, so much pleasanter than on a freighter. Travelling by sea was probably your only affordable means of transport back then: much more the norm before cheap air travel became available to the masses. And you're right, it was certainly a safer and friendlier world then, and much easier to live in then than now in many ways.

International travel lost of a lot of its allure and adventure for many people after the late 1960s when much cheaper air fares started to commercialize overseas travel in a big way. It was no longer as great a thrill as it once was for many.

Now overseas air travel is like getting a crowded bus into town that doesn't stop for hours: in and out of airports; arrogant, surly, dictatorial customs and immigration officials barking orders and scrutinizing everything everywhere. I know that in this day and age it is necessary. However, sometimes I wonder why I bother at all. Well, perhaps the odd holiday out of town is not out of order. But often I'd really rather just stay at home and water the cat etc.

Dan Jackson: "I too visited Taiwan in the early '90s. I was in Taipei, Tai Chang and Kaohsiung for a month to 6 weeks at a time. The scales I saw in the street markets were kilograms only, The tape measures in both the factories and stores were millimetres only. The English language weather reports on the TV and the radio in the car (the driver always put on an English language station when I was in the car) were full metric. The roads and car instruments were signed only in metric. If the people knew English units it was never known by me as we always spoke metric."

Dan is 100-percent right here. In all the time I was in East Asia I never used non-metric units, except with some older Americans who kept asking me to convert metric units to customary units for them, e.g. Q. "Hey Rip, how far's 100km to Tainan?" A. "About 60 miles, Dean." Etc. In the occasional old English-language travel magazine going back to the 1960s or 70s I saw in some places had miles in it, e.g. Taiwan is 250 miles long. But all the newer ones had metric units, e.g. Taiwan is 396 kilometers long. Only on US satellite stations did we get temperatures in Fahrenheit and USC units in news bulletins from North America. In Taiwan it was always Celsius on ICRT (Int'l Community Radio Taipei) the local English-language radio station. All Taiwanese spoke in metric units.

In mainland China, some Chinese would sometimes try to speak in miles but most had no idea how long a mile was. Their idea of a mile was about half a mile or 800m. All metal fittings in Taiwan were in metric. One thing that Dan may not have seen was some foodstuffs that were made for export, e.g. bottles of soy or hoisin sauce, canned fish, were sometimes given in ounces for weight or in US fluid ounces for liquid. This was true of some foodstuffs made for export all over the southern Chinese region: Hong Kong, Guangdong/Canton, Taiwan. Even here in Australia when my wife buys some Cantonese- or Taiwanese-exported sauce, the bottle often, but not always, has the number of US fluid ounces printed in brackets with the metric equivalent unbracketed. However, in East Asia there is little doubt that metric overwhelmingly predominates over any and all other systems of weights and measures.

I bet they do some of their clothes in inches.

Dan Jackson: "I learned something you missed! He said the old systems were learned in the '60s and '70s with no mention of the times since. This would imply the teaching was dropped as an unnecessary exercise in futility."

Yes, I think Dan is right here too. I think the Taiwanese authorities must have dropped teaching both Chinese and US customary units in their middle/high schools. I'll have to check this with my wife. But in all my time in Taiwan, not once did any Taiwanese middle- or high-school kid tell me that they were learning Chinese/US customary weights and measures, and I was told quite a lot about their schoolwork when I was forced to teach English there: if they were learning standard US units it is the sort of thing the kids would normally tell you.

<<I bet they do some of their clothes in inches.>>

Maybe they do and maybe they don't.

<<Metre: Mind you it was not all that expensive for Westeners.>>

Now that's how I'd really like to travel. Affordable sea travel on a smaller but still decent passenger ship. Is it still possible? I am inclined to think not, but it might be if one looked hard enough.

RIP,

Remember the '60s and part of the '70s was before the remainder of the world's nations still using imperial began to switch to metric. Once these countries announced their intent to convert and actually started doing so, the need to waste time in Taiwan and other country's schools teaching a useless collection of units was no longer needed.

Thus the practice was dropped and replaced with more useful subjects.

SteveH: I am starting to enjoy your spats of pure fantasy about people you don't know and countries you haven't got the slightest knowledge about!

Yeh! He will be on about Budapest next, or Copenhagen or ...

Btw: When are you going to get a job?

Which job?

Am I mistaken? I thought you were without gainful employment. If so - are there not opportunities out there for electronic filing clerks?

Hmm, seems you are mistaken.

I work freelance (hence my confusion above).

Have you not picked that up from my posts? A clue is my hobby of collecting cars - which I have brought to light in many forms in many posts. Not as a boast but as an interest - most of which is relevant. And my other hobbies of hifi and jetsetting (the second of which allows me to comment on countries I've visited rather than websites I've visited).

If you had supplied a real post name and an email address I could have told you more, but unfortunately you need to hide behind "anonymous".

Tell me, how do you feel right now?

To BWMA: Yes, I haven't renewed my subs - I admit I have forgotton - I will do so soon!

I have been taught, by uri gellar in a pub in reading, to read people's minds over long distances.

Thus....

Apology accepted, "Anonymous" !

;-)

Interesting about Uri. Clever man, but he does seem to have an unfortunate obsession with bent articles.

Actually I lie - it wasn't a pub - it was a Japanese restaurant.