Seems that a certain person has been "sussed" over at the USMA site:

http://www.mail-archive.com/usma@colostate.edu/msg24463.html

Hey guys (any women on this list?):

Just back from China, only to find over 350 USMA
emails! Lots of interesting stuff, but some b.s.

Daniel Jackson writes (from various emails):

"It is obvious the that FMI is composed of very
stupid people"

"The hope is to scare an ignorant public into
thinking that metrication will indeed force people
to talk this way."

"If the US side claims it will cause them economic
hardship....then that is just too bad. The whiners
need to pay a price and be set up as an example to
others that they will suffer the same fate if they
refuse adapt."

"Trying to keep the pint at 568 mL is looked on by
these fools as a pint is xx ounces, not 568 mL."

Apprently Daniel wants us to know he an American
Liberal: arrogant, elitist, offensive, uncaring.

Too damn bad he isn't ANTI-metric -- he hurts our
cause more than helps it.

<Name withheld>

His latest outrage is that New Orleans should be scrapped in favour of using the same money for metrication.

Many USMA members have expressed disgust with that sentiment.

re (Stimpy): "His latest outrage is that New Orleans should be scrapped in favour of using the same money for metrication..."

REPLY: A metric compulsive-obsessive zealot whose obsession may be taking him, step by step, closer to madness

It's well worth a read actually (the link to the USMA archives above).

Can give people an insight to what can happen to one's mind when obsession is all that's left.

Mad? September 5 2005, 1:51 PM


TB
REPLY: A metric compulsive-obsessive zealot whose obsession may be taking him, step by step, closer to madness

metre
It takes one to know one.

Not an either/or with metrication, but there are continuing discussions in the US about rebuilding disaster areas as they were, when it is obvious it will just happen again.

This applies to coastal homes in hurricane areas, certainly building below sea level as in New Orleans, rebuilding million dollar homes in California that slide down the hill in the next rain storm, rivers that have annual floods, etc.

Some areas are just unsuited to building because you can't fight Mother Nature, some can be rectified with good engineering. Would anyone entertain bringing enough fill to get New Orleans 5-10 feet above sea level, and put it on equal footing with Florida? I don't know. But people have predicted exactly this for decades. Now that it has happened, perhaps it more believable. Rebuilding it as it was is crazy stupid.

It would take national debate to decide what should be done, either rebuild elsewhere, or commit to robust construction above sea level. Obviously, the money for either wasn't in the budget and has to be found by slashing other things.

Daniel's remark was very poorly thought out; however, a lot of people in the US have valid concerns with rebuilding disaster areas so they can repeat endlessly.

Whenever did reason stand in the way of stupidity?

John - its truthful to say that sometimes we, as humans, are a bit weird! What makes one choose a house next to a huge river with a history of breaking its banks etc.

However I understand that New Orleans has a lot of history to it and people are very atached/fond of it.

That's the thing about humans (the head/heart thing).

Perhaps cash can be spent on better defences?

"Some areas are just unsuited to building because you can't fight Mother Nature, some can be rectified with good engineering. Would anyone entertain bringing enough fill to get New Orleans 5-10 feet above sea level, and put it on equal footing with Florida? I don't know. But people have predicted exactly this for decades. Now that it has happened, perhaps it more believable. Rebuilding it as it was is crazy stupid."

I agree!

New Orleans is not a city of millionaires, who could afford to rebuild the city despite its shortcomings. The city is one of the poorest in America and I think a lot of people would be upset if money was spent building 200 000 dollar homes for the poor, especially if people in other cities have to take out mortgages and put themselves in heavy debt to buy a nice home in a decent neighborhood.

New Orleans would have to be raised at least 10 m to make it flood resistant. The fill would have to be shipped in from thousands of kilometres away and be enough to fill a thousand or more square kilometres or area. Where is the money to come from to do that?

There is enough vacant industry space in the mid-west cities that New Orleans industry can relocate to. I'm sure you can name some closed factories in Detroit that could come to life again if a former New Orleans factory moved there. The country also needs to disperse more of its oil refining and storage to other locations to make it less vulnerable to disasters. There is wisdom in the old proverb about putting ones eggs all in one basket.

The same can be said for cities in earthquake zones. Fine, stay there and if you have a small quake with minor damage then rebuild and move on. If the entire city is wiped out, then close it and resettle the population. Those who insist New Orleans be rebuilt, then let them pay for it out of their own pockets.

Much of the Netherlands is below sea level. After teh floods of 1953 which claimed nearly 2000 lives, the Dutch set about strengthening their dykes and also building the Delta Works. One of their design criteria was a mtbf of 10,000 years. OK, it would mean a dyke that is maybe 30m or 40m in width (the width of the Afsluitdijk in the Netherlands). The original design of teh Afsluitdijk was 7.5m above mean sea level. After the storm surges of 1953 and 1968, it was raied to 10m above sea level.

One of the other things that they did in the province of Flevoland - the area recalimed since the War - was to build an extra dyke across the the polder to break it into two water-tight halves. Another thing that I noticed when I was in Flevoland was that the railway line was built on an embankment about 4m or 5m above land level - it looked to me that it was above sea-level. The reason was probably so that should there be a flood, then the railway could be used to evacuate people.

I would strongly suggest that Dutch engineers should be cotnracted to advise on how to secure New Orleans in the future.

The Dutch obviously have a lot of experience with massive dikes that have to protect even in major coastal storms. That might be a resource.

The problem I see in New Orleans is that there are many canals between the river and Lake Pontchartrain. I've never been there and don't know how they are used. They tremendously increase (several fold) the total length of levee needed to protect the city. As these are "backwaters" that won't be exposed to the same wind and wave action as those directly on the Mississippi or the Lake, I suspect they are built to lesser standards. However, it was these canal dikes that failed (in three different places) and flooded the city. Lake Ponchartrain peaked at 8.6' (plus wave action) above sea level vs a normal 1' above sea level, and the main levees on the Lake held. Three levees down canals with little or no wave action failed due to an extra 7.6' of water. I am not convinced the full story has come out yet on the design intent, and whether the levees that failed met intent. (Sorry, my source data is in Customary)

For the Netherlands, the area to perimeter ratio is such that the dikes are probably the only answer, backfilling the Netherlands is out of the question. For New Orleans, by the time you build all these dikes on the canals, you have half-filled the city anyway. Some more fill and you are above sea level

john,

Your errors have been corrected. See how much more understandable it is now.


Lake Ponchartrain peaked at 2.6 m (plus wave action) above sea level vs a normal 0.3 m above sea level, and the main levees on the Lake held. Three levees down canals with little or no wave action failed due to an extra 2.3 m of water. I am not convinced the full story has come out yet on the design intent, and whether the levees that failed met intent.

The Netherlands system works because the dikes are 100 % metric. The American system failed because the levees were 100 % USC. The proof is in the pudding (remember we did agree that metric food tasted better too.)

A report in today's Times showed that it was the levees on the canals that broke. The proper protection would have been massive locks at the entrance to the canals such as London's Thames Barrage or the Netherlands's Delta Works.

I feel sorry for you Daniel.

Genuinely.

Re: Breaking News September 5 2005, 10:31 PM

DJ
The Netherlands system works because the dikes are 100 % metric. The American system failed because the levees were 100 % USC. The proof is in the pudding (remember we did agree that metric food tasted better too.)

metre
I would have put it differently. It is a question of how much government do you want, or need. Ever since Reagan, the trend was for less and less. Privatised infrastructures are run down and public works are starved of money. Money earmarked for public works in New Orleans disappeared in the bottomless cauldron of Iraq. The time wasting wrangling about State and federal responsibilities in New Orleans is partly an outcome of that unhealthy trend to ever less government. Sadly, it took a disaster like New Orleans for people to realise that government has a vital role to play even in America.

"And here's another hit from the 70's, remember this everyone? It's Kung foo fighting....[cheers from the Top of the Pops audience]"


"Everybody's gone Kung Foo Fighting...dee dee dee dee do do dum dum dee - Oh they were fast as lightning.. dee dee dum dee dee dum dee dee dum dum dum .. Infact it was a little bit frightning...etc".

(but thanks for bringing "Breaking News" to the top again - sure is worth a read from the start!)

;-)

My newspaper had a photo of one of these broken "minor levees." What an embarassment. It looked like a concrete fence, a few feet high and a few inches thick, or perhaps the concrete median blocks used on some freeways.

One section had collapsed and was filled with sandbags. But the other sections had all shifted and had several inch gaps between them. There was no dirt rampart behind them, and judging from some trees, there never were. It was obvious by inspection that it was at most a "spray shield" not a levee. Filled with water on one side, it would either fall over or shift. But there are no waves on these backwater canals so spray shields aren't what is needed.

I can't believe anyone thought these could protect a city, and they obviously didn't. The levees on the lake and river are pretty solid and well-buttressed by dirt ramparts. These minor levees on canals are a complete joke and embarassment.

Re: Breaking News September 7 2005, 1:46 PM



"Everybody's gone Kung Foo Fighting...dee dee dee dee do do dum dum dee - Oh they were fast as lightning.. dee dee dum dee dee dum dee dee dum dum dum .. Infact it was a little bit frightning...etc".


metre
Wow, after having written him off as brain dead there are still 2 neurons firing randomly. Congratulations.

So the ensuing investigation is going to lead to heads rolling - for if what you say is the case then it was definitely a disaster begging, not waiting, to happen.


===============

Granted, I am an electrical engineer by training, not a civil engineer. It could be argued that I don't know squat about designing a levee. However, I am prepared to argue I know more than the clowns that built this.

As a "concrete fence" I would have concerns about this falling down in the northern part of the country based on frost heaves as the ground freezes and thaws in the spring.

But I am willing to bet this all gets glossed over by CYA politicians who don't want to talk about that.

John,

As a software engineer (albeit with an MSc in control theory) , I would take the same line as you. I have however visited various sites in the Netherlands connected with keeping water back and have taken note of how they operate. I also bought a book on the Ijselmeer project.

Lets try sharing this photo. I scanned it, and uploaded it to ImageShack. If you cut and paste the link below into your browser address bar, you should be able to see it.
http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/1892/levees0fz.jpg
Source: Detroit Free Press 2005-09-07 page 6A

Helicopter is dropping sandbags into broken section. Note the other sections are all askew and the gaps between 10 or so sections would be as big as the broken out section. Note how thin the concrete with no support. Slightly behind the helicopter, you see a levee section sitting on ground with tree behind it. Neither side was ever supported by a dirt rampart. How much water could this really hold back. My opinion is not much.

This was supposed to save the city!

I'm no engineer, levee-builder-type-person, etc - but give me a bucket and a spade and I could have constructed something better than that!

JS
Slightly behind the helicopter, you see a levee section sitting on ground with tree behind it. Neither side was ever supported by a dirt rampart. How much water could this really hold back. My opinion is not much.This was supposed to save the city!

metre
I am sure many decent Americans are as shocked as the rest of the world about New Orleans initial abandonment. Sadly, this disaster exposed not only an ill prepared, or callous administration; it also exposed a dysfunctional society. Can anyone imagine lawlessness like this happening in Amsterdam if any of their superbly constructed dams would collapse?

The Bush administration has promptly organised an army of spin doctors to safe its tattered image and no doubt many Americans and one poster on this board will, as always, swallow it hook and sinker.
Sad as it is, somebody came with an apt description of the catastrophe. It runs like this; what have Fallujah (Iraq) and New Orleans in common? Both suffered the Bush administration treatment

"it also exposed a dysfunctional society."


This is a society that claims it can't understand or learn the metric system. That in itself should tell you something. So how can we expect it to do better in other endeavors?

A government that doesn't care enough about its people's future to enforce a measurement system that is beneficial to the future competitiveness of the economy isn't going to care enough to plan for infrastructure improvements that would have saved places like New Orleans.

In the past the US could afford to be wasteful. It had a relatively small population compared to land size, with an abundance of resources. Now the population is large, the resources are fewer and the dependence on outsiders to sustain us continues to increase. We want to have our cake and eat it too, except now the cake is stale.

<<The Bush administration has promptly organised an army of spin doctors to safe its tattered image and no doubt many Americans and one poster on this board will, as always, swallow it hook and sinker.
>>

There is probably some failure at the Federal level too, but the US has always had a Federal/states' rights issue. It was of major importance in the 1800's, and is minor today only because it has been defined, settled, and layers of government are careful not to step on each other's toes.
(You face similar EU/national issues in Europe, now)

Among other things, the Federal government asked the Louisiana governor to let them assume overall command of the evacuation and initial disaster relief. She refused. The Democrats and the media hope to use all the death to topple the administration, but errors by the mayor and the governor, and failure to implement their own local emergency plans caused a good share of them.

I really don't know what the idiot governor is thinking. On the one hand, she refuses to support Nagin's mandatory evacuation order, on the other, she refuses to let the Red Cross help survivors in the city, because it only encourages them to stay. I suspect she is thinking "if there are no victims, I can't bash the administration."

I could go on and get into the mayor's shortcomings, but you get the idea, there are two or three sides to this. Since the media is part of the Press Office of the Democratic Party, you will only hear about one (except maybe Fox News, Investors' Business Daily, and a few other conservative media outlets. I don't know whether Congress will be honest in addressing the shortcomings at all levels.

"There is probably some failure at the Federal level too, but the US has always had a Federal/states' rights issue. It was of major importance in the 1800's, and is minor today only because it has been defined, settled, and layers of government are careful not to step on each other's toes.
(You face similar EU/national issues in Europe, now)"


There comes a moment when you have to realize there is a chain of command. You allow those in the lower ranks some amount of personal freedom in certain matters up to a point. If the personal freedom begins to interfere with the greater good, then the higher authority steps in and assumes command.



"Among other things, the Federal government asked the Louisiana governor to let them assume overall command of the evacuation and initial disaster relief. She refused. The Democrats and the media hope to use all the death to topple the administration, but errors by the mayor and the governor, and failure to implement their own local emergency plans caused a good share of them."

That was the first mistake. They should have never asked. they should have assumed command. If the Governor or the Mayor would have objected, then they their objection would be noted, but would have in no may changed the right of the Federal agency to assume control. If they would have interfered, then they should have been arrested.


"I really don't know what the idiot governor is thinking. On the one hand, she refuses to support Nagin's mandatory evacuation order, on the other, she refuses to let the Red Cross help survivors in the city, because it only encourages them to stay. I suspect she is thinking "if there are no victims, I can't bash the administration.""


Incompetence of this type is a perfect example of why in an emergency situation the Federal agency in charge of disasters should have been given the authority to seize control and stifle any Resistance. If citizens are ordered to leave the city and refuse, they should be arrested. They government then should deny them any type of relief as a punishment for refusing to obey orders to leave.


"I could go on and get into the mayor's shortcomings, but you get the idea, there are two or three sides to this. Since the media is part of the Press Office of the Democratic Party, you will only hear about one (except maybe Fox News, Investors' Business Daily, and a few other conservative media outlets. I don't know whether Congress will be honest in addressing the shortcomings at all levels."


The real battle is yet to come. When the water is all pumped out there will be those who will insist New Orleans be rebuilt and those who will say no. Inspections of the buildings will show they are too water damaged to be repaired and will all have to be tore down. Those wanting to rebuild will not accept the conclusions of the inspectors.

A friend sent me this email the other day. I edited out personal stuff;

I had a long talk with .......... last night.(My friend from New Orleans) He is now living in ......... La. in a rural house in the middle of cotton fields for $300 per month. A relatives home who is out of town. He figures he will lose about $250,000. His house was only four blocks from the levee and his neighborhood was hit the hardest. I am so glad he and some of his neighbors were able to escape the city. They escaped in one car, which they now realize was stupid, because they all should have driven a car separately to save four cars. House insurance does not include floods, but FEMA has flood coverage but it will only pay $83,000 on a house like the one he had that was worth $220,000. He only has one change of clothes and has lost 5 kg from the stress, but he is fortunate to be alive and healthy. He cannot access his bank accounts. FEMA gave each person $129 for food vouchers. He still has income from his stocks. I am sending him a cashiers check for $500 rather than donate to some fund for someone I don't know. He pointed out to me that a lot of people who stayed behind were poor people from the projects who are gang members and on drugs. They cannot get their drugs now and are going berserk and committing crimes and violence that you hear about. I had never thought of this, but thought it seemed strange that people would react the way they did in this crisis.


A lot of this mayhem would have been avoided if the Federal government would have just taken charge. Just like metrication. Just do it!

re (Daniel Jackson): "if only the Federal Government had taken charge..."

REPLY: Well, here's a reasoned alternatoive viw from te United States:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chain of Responsiblity

In case you aren’t familiar with how our government is SUPPOSED to work:

The chain of responsiblity for the protection of the citizens in New Orleans is:

1. The Mayor
2. The New Orleans director of Homeland Security (a political appointee of the Governor who reports to the Governor)
3. The Governor
4. The Head of Homeland Security
5. The President

What did each do?

1. The mayor, with 5 days advance, waited until 2 days before he announced a mandatory evacuation (at the behest of the President). Then he failed to provide transportation for those without transport even though he had hundreds of buses at his disposal.

2. The New Orleans director of Homeland Security failed to have any plan for a contingency that has been talked about for 50 years. Then he blames the Feds for not doing what he should have done. (So much for political appointees)

3. The Governor, despite a declaration of disaster by the President 2 DAYS BEFORE the storm hit, failed to take advantage of the offer of Federal troops and aid. Until 2 DAYS AFTER the storm hit.

4. The Director of Homeland Security positioned assets in the area to be ready when the Governor called for them

5. The President urged a mandatory evacuation, and even declared a disaster State of Emergency, freeing up millions of dollars of federal assistance, should the Governor decide to use it.

Oh and by the way, the levees that broke were the responsibility of the local landowners and the local levee board to maintain, NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

The disaster in New Orleans is what you get after decades of corrupt (Democrat) government going all the way back to Huey Long.

Funds for disaster protection and relief have been flowing into this city for decades, and where has it gone, but into the pockets of the politicos and their friends.

Decades of socialist government in New Orleans has sapped all self-reliance from the community, and made them dependent upon government for every little thing.

Political correctness and a lack of will to fight crime have created the single most corrupt police force in the country, and has permitted gang violence to flourish.

The sad thing is that there are many poor folks who have suffered and died needlessly because those that they voted into office failed them.

For those who missed item 5 (where the President’s level of accountability is discussed), it is made more clear in a New Orleans Times-Picayune article dated August 28:

------------------------------

NEW ORLEANS (AP) — In the face of a catastrophic Hurricane Katrina, a mandatory evacuation was ordered Sunday for New Orleans by Mayor Ray Nagin.

Acknowledging that large numbers of people, many of them stranded tourists, would be unable to leave, the city set up 10 places of last resort for people to go, including the Superdome.

The mayor called the order unprecedented and said anyone who could leave the city should. He exempted hotels from the evacuation order because airlines had already cancelled all flights.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.

The ball was placed in Mayor Nagin’s court to carry out the evacuation order. With a 5-day heads-up, he had the authority to use any and all services to evacuate all residents from the city, as documented in a city emergency preparedness plan. By waiting until the last minute, and failing to make full use of resources available within city limits, Nagin and his administration missed the boat.

Mayor Nagin and his emergency sidekick Terry Ebbert have displayed lethal, mind boggling incompetence before, during and after Katrina.

As for Mayor Nagin, he and his profile in pathetic leadership police chief should resign as well. That city’s government is incompetent from one end to the other. The people of New Orleans deserve better than this crowd of clowns is capable of giving them.

If you’re keeping track, these boobs let 569 buses that could have carried 33,350 people out of New Orleans – in one trip – get ruined in the floods. Whatever plan these guys had, it was a dud. Or it probably would have been if they’d bothered to follow it.

As for all the race-baiting rhetoric and Bush-bashing coming from prominent blacks on the left, don’t expect Ray Nagin to be called out on the carpet for falling short. You want to know why? Here’s why:

It’s more convenient to blame a white president for what went wrong than to hold a black mayor and his administration accountable for gross negligence and failing to fully carry out an established emergency preparedness plan.

To hold Nagin and his administration accountable for dropping the ball amounts to letting loose the shouts and cries of 'Racism!'. It’s sad, it’s wrong, but it’s standard operating procedure for the media and left-wing black leadership.

Mark my words: you will not hear a word of criticism from Jesse Jackson Sr., Randall Robinson, the Congressional Black Caucus, the NAACP, or Kanye West being directed toward Clarence Ray Nagin Jr.

Why? Because he is just another black politician - instead of a responsible elected official who happens to be black. In the mindset of more-blacker-than-thou blacks, black politicians who are on their side can do no wrong.

<<There comes a moment when you have to realize there is a chain of command. You allow those in the lower ranks some amount of personal freedom in certain matters up to a point. If the personal freedom begins to interfere with the greater good, then the higher authority steps in and assumes command.
>>

That reveals a complete and utter lack of understanding of the separation of powers. Powers not specifically enumerated as Federal powers are reserved to the state. There is not a direct chain of command between the governor and the President. They are each elected by the processes of the separate bodies of government that they lead. Perhaps the people of New Orleans and Louisiana should not elect such idiots (I'll give you that some say that about the US as whole) but the fact that they do does not give the President to usurp unconstitutional authority, and had he, liberals would be all over his ass (as would conservatives).

The Constitutional separation of powers is one of the keynotes of our form of government. (Checks and balances is another). Creating a military dictatorship when you don't like the outcome of separation of powers is a REALLY bad idea. Most countries never recover from it.

The chain of responsiblity for the protection of the citizens in New Orleans is:

1. The Mayor
2. The New Orleans director of Homeland Security (a political appointee of the Governor who reports to the Governor)
3. The Governor
4. The Head of Homeland Security
5. The President


This order is in reverse of what it should be. The President has more resources at his disposal to effect a more organized handling of the situation then the mayor. Under ordinary circumstances, the mayor is in charge of his city. But there is no way the mayor could effectively organize the type of help needed to save the city or the people.

We have all seen what happens when things are done the wrong way. What more proof do we need that certain methods, even though lawful, just don't work? Unfortunately the lessons that should be learned from the fiasco of New Orleans won't be and the next disaster will play out no differently.

Can anyone show me an effective military that functions from the bottom up rather then from the top down?

J:

If I understand you correctly, then the Federal government is completely blameless in this entire incident. If the local authorities as you claim are the sole governing authority in New Orleans and Louisiana, then they and they alone must take full responsibility for their incompetence in handling the situation. If they did not have the resources to take better control of the bad to worse situation, then it was up to them to request federal help from the first moment. Apparantly they didn't.

NEW ORLEANS - THE REAL REASONS WHY HELP WAS DELAYED

O.K., here are some of the real reasons why help didn't reach people in time in New Orleans. Strong stuff, I'm afraid, but the truth (edited due to length)...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


President Bush called for a “zero tolerance” policy against looters and profiteering today as New Orleans descended into lawlessness.

Three days after Hurricane Katrina slammed into the US Gulf Coast, armed gangs are roaming virtually unchecked through the flooded southern city, diverting police from the vital task of rescuing tens of thousands of residents trapped without food, power or fresh water.

Officials were even forced to suspend the evacuation of almost 25,000 flood refugees from the New Orleans Superdome after shots were fired at Chinook army helicopters overseeing the loading of people onto a fleet of prison buses.

In a television interview this morning Mr Bush defended himself from charges that his own response to the crisis was tardy — he only broke off from a holiday at his Texas ranch yesterday — and that the war in Iraq had left America unable to tackle emergencies at home.

The Pentagon said it would send an extra 10,000 National Guardsmen into Mississippi and Louisiana, bringing the force to more than 18,000... “We’ve got the resources necessary to do two separate things,” Mr Bush told ABC. “I hope people don’t play politics during this time. This is a natural disaster the likes of which this country may not have seen before. What we need to do is to come together as a nation - there will be ample time for politics.”

Ray Nagin, the Mayor of New Orleans, said last night that thousands had probably died in the floods brought by the storm—although that appears to be largely a guess since bodies are still not being routinely collected or counted.

Mr Nagin ordered virtually the entire police force to abandon search-and-rescue efforts and stop thieves who were becoming increasingly hostile. “They are starting to get closer to heavily populated areas—hotels, hospitals, and we’re going to stop it right now,” he said.
Tempers also were starting to flare along the rest of the Gulf Coast strip. Police said a man in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, shot and killed his sister in a row over a bag of ice. Dozens of carjackings were reported, including a nursing home bus and a truck carrying medical supplies for a hospital.

Chris Ayres, a Times reporter, travelled from the devastated Mississippi town of Biloxi to Mobile, Alabama, and said: “There is a feeling of total lawlessness which is quite frightening. There is a feeling that there are no property rights, no rights at all. Along the road people have broken into abandoned hotels and are just living there.

Authorities are trying to evacuate all civilians from New Orleans, where an estimated 80,000 people ignored an order to leave last week ahead of Katrina’s arrival. A large proportion of those are being housed at the Superdome sports stadium, where toilets are backed up and the air unbreathable, and are due to be taken to the Houston Astrodome, 350 miles away, in a fleet of almost 500 prison buses.

Security problems were clearly preventing police, fire officers and other rescue workers from getting to people in need as the Deep South came to resemble the Wild West. Just outside New Orleans, gunmen held up a supply truck carrying food, water, medical supplies and pharmaceuticals, prompting officials to ask police and the US Coast Guard to help evacuate a working 203-bed hospital.

Some of the most graphic descriptions of the chaos have come from a blog run by employees of Directnic, a domain name registrar, who have stayed in the city to keep the company’s servers going. One, who described himself as a security expert, wrote: “It is a zoo out there though, make no mistake. It’s the wild kingdom. It’s Lord of the Flies. That doesn’t mean there’s murder on every street corner. But what it does mean is that the rule of law has collapsed, that there is no order, and that property rights cannot and are not being enforced. Anyone who is on the streets is in immediate danger of being robbed and killed. It’s that bad.”

The same blog, at www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor, reported that dozens of New Orleans police officers had simply abandoned their posts...

COMMENTS - 1:

"Just outside New Orleans, gunmen held up a supply truck carrying food, water, medical supplies and pharmaceuticals, prompting officials to ask police and the US Coast Guard to help evacuate a working 203-bed hospital." This reminds me of Somalia, when the warlords were hijacking UN relief convoys. I see that snipers are shooting at evacuation helicopters. Hopefully they have no RPG's or Redeyes. So far no "Blackhawk Down". But even CNN can't hide the racial facts of what is happening there. I used to live in New Orleans, and enjoyed it (25 years ago), but even then you were only relatively safe as long as you stayed in the well-policed tourist areas. Wander a block in the wrong direction and it was throat-slashing time. I wonder if the city will ever be rebuilt as a major population center? It started out on higher ground, but now it is below sea level in more ways than one.

COMMENTS - 2:

Be temperate with your postings on New Orleans, people. Whatever the many, many faults of those left behind there, whatever failures we have as a nation acknowledging the obvious race-based third world within America, whatever the root causes of the human problems in New Orleans, now is a moment for more sympathy than criticism. 'There is a Time for all Things Under Heaven' - Posted by Jim Highton at 5:51 PM on September 1

[REST SNIPPED IN THE LIGHT OF JIM HIGHTON'S COMMENTS]

<<If I understand you correctly, then the Federal government is completely blameless in this entire incident. >>

Didn't I SAY above the Feds probably deserve some blame too?
Once they were requested to help, they weren't that swift either. But all the early failure lies squarely on the mayor and the governor, and indications are that they have continued to fail relative to maintaining clear lines of communication.

However, in the absence of "the call" an idiot could have forseen that the Feds would eventually be called in, and could have gotten more prepared to help while awaiting the call. They really don't have the authority to step in without it, however. When the truth comes out, I imagine there will be a severe shortage of blameless politicians, appointees, and hangers-on.

I was "j" above. The whole name didn't fill in for some reason.

"A *friend* sent me this email the other day"

It's a great tribute to humans that during tragedy we are still able to laugh ocassionally

JS
<I could go on and get into the mayor's shortcomings, but you get the idea, there are two or three sides to this. Since the media is part of the Press Office of the Democratic Party, you will only hear about one (except maybe Fox News, Investors' Business Daily, and a few other conservative media outlets. I don't know whether Congress will be honest in addressing

metre
Many outsiders’ contention is that government at all levels failed its predominantly black citizen when they needed it most. This fact will not disappear with blame shifting. That said, I think your problems go much deeper and a renewed assessment of what government is all about should be on every Americans mind.
While conceding that the Bush administration is not solely responsible for the disaster, it has to take overall responsibility for what happened if the word “leader” has the same meaning as everywhere else.

As to media bias, I think it’s evenly split between pros and cons.

DJ
A lot of this mayhem would have been avoided if the Federal government would have just taken charge. Just like metrication. Just do it!

metre
A good point.

Bucket
NOW

New Orleans - an Alternative View September 8 2005, 6:17 PM

TB
REPLY: Well, here's a reasoned alternatoive viw from te United States:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
metre
This is how a Bush voter excuses the carnage in New Orleans
when a major disaster brews and strikes.

Bush voter
“In case you aren’t familiar with how our government works" Chain of Responsiblity
.
1. The Mayor
2. The New Orleans director of Homeland Security
3. The Governor
4. The Head of Homeland Security
5. The President

This chain applies in normal circumstances, but not when major disasters strike.

metre
The chain of responsibility for the protection of all US citizens in major disasters is in the opinion of an outsider:

1.The President
2.The Head of Homeland Security
3.The Governor
4.The New Orleans director of Homeland Security
5.The Mayor

All said and done you do not burden the smallest cog in the machine with the biggest load because it is not designed for it. What do you have FEMA for?

As to the rest, I can post numerous articles looking at it from the opposite perspective.

Re: Breaking News September 8 2005, 6:53 PM
J
The Constitutional separation of powers is one of the keynotes of our form of government. (Checks and balances is another). Creating a military dictatorship when you don't like the outcome of separation of powers is a REALLY bad idea. Most countries never recover from it.

metre
You are not the only federal nation, others manage major disasters (Kobe earthquake), so why can't you?

Or do you really think an epitaph for thousands of New Orleans victims should read:

THEY DIED FOR THE NOBLE CAUSE OF FEDERALISM.

<<metre
The chain of responsibility for the protection of all US citizens in major disasters is in the opinion of an outsider:

1.The President
2.The Head of Homeland Security
3.The Governor
4.The New Orleans director of Homeland Security
5.The Mayor

All said and done you do not burden the smallest cog in the machine with the biggest load because it is not designed for it. What do you have FEMA for?
>>

If you define a chain of "magnitude of effort," I agree with your list.
However, we are a nation of law, and we are a nation founded on a profound mistrust of a strong central government (you make recall we fought a Revolution to get free of one). I respect that other countries may have CHOSEN a form of government where the national level is authorized to step in whenever they feel it warranted; we have not.

The bottom of the chain has less resources to command, but the bottom of the chain has to ask, otherwise the stepping in of the top of the chain is unlawful. Citizens could petition that the law change, or they could demand local officials who understand how the chain works, and "work the system."

If you think Bush is getting grief now, you can not imagine the grief if he had stepped in without authorization. The part where I agree with you is that FEMA had to know "about" what kind of aid would be required (they've been through this before) and prepared themselves to furnish that aid IMMEDIATELY upon receipt of the request. But local officials have to take responsibility for COMPLETELY screwing up the beginning of the process. If New Orleans lets the dead vote, like Chicago does, this may hurt Nagin in the next election.

NEW ORLEANS - SOME OF THE REAL REASONS WHY HELP WAS DELAYED September 8 2005, 8:39 PM

TB
NEW ORLEANS - THE REAL REASONS WHY HELP WAS DELAYED
O.K., here are some of the real reasons why help didn't reach people in time in New Orleans. Strong stuff, I'm afraid, but the truth (edited due to length)...

metre
Does the term dysfunctional society mean anything to you? No amount of blame shifting will solve a problem that seems predominantly American. For something like this to happen a society must be very sick. Blaming victims is of course the easiest way out and also a recipe to perpetuate and worsen an already very bad situation. Just ask yourself why something like this would not happen in Europe, or anywhere else?

Re: Breaking News September 9 2005, 2:33 PM

JS
If you think Bush is getting grief now, you can not imagine the grief if he had stepped in without authorization. The part where I agree with you is that FEMA had to know "about" what kind of aid would be required (they've been through this before) and prepared themselves to furnish that aid IMMEDIATELY upon receipt of the request. But local officials have to take responsibility for COMPLETELY screwing up the beginning of the process. If New Orleans lets the dead vote, like Chicago does, this may hurt Nagin in the next election.

metre
I do understand your point of view, but what I do not understand is why nobody im America can see that major disasters require special responses that have nothing to do with State or federal rights, but everything with saving lives and infrastructures. Everybody knows that it has to be done anyway, so let them agree to do it without red tape quickly and efficiently. I am sure after hurricane Katrina people in all States would willingly agree on immediate federal intervention in major emergencies. Believe me an outsider can only shake his head in disbelief when anyone starts to cite federal and state rights in a situation like this. What are you Americans, or Iowans, Illinoians......?

Re: Breaking News September 8 2005, 9:00 PM
JS
When the truth comes out, I imagine there will be a severe shortage of blameless politicians, appointees, and hangers-on.

metre
I wholeheartedly second that!

"metre
I do understand your point of view, but what I do not understand is why nobody im America can see that major disasters require special responses that have nothing to do with State or federal rights."


The vast majority of Americans don't even know how to balance a checque book or manage a household economy, so how can anyone expect them to know who is in charge of what or what attention certain problems require? We are giving our metric jobs away to the Chinese and Indians and leaving ourselves with the "no brains requuired....clean up in aisle 6" jobs.

<<metre
I do understand your point of view, but what I do not understand is why nobody im America can see that major disasters require special responses that have nothing to do with State or federal rights, but everything with saving lives and infrastructures. Everybody knows that it has to be done anyway, so let them agree to do it without red tape quickly and efficiently. I am sure after hurricane Katrina people in all States would willingly agree on immediate federal intervention in major emergencies. Believe me an outsider can only shake his head in disbelief when anyone starts to cite federal and state rights in a situation like this. What are you Americans, or Iowans, Illinoians......?>>

And I see your point of view as well. However, there have also been times when Federal "aid" is unwelcome, so people stick to the rules. They really aren't very complex. It is not like the governor had to fill out a 100 page form to get help. She just had to ask. People are certainly shaking their heads that she didn't ask.

But look at your own situation. How well are rights jealously guarded between the United Kingdom, and England/Wales/Scotland.Northern Ireland, or between the United Kingdom and "supernation" Europe is trying to form in the European Union. It is VERY tough to agree on the rules in the first place, but once agreed, people can only play nicely together if the rules are followed, almost religiously. In a democracy, the potential exists to change the rules, and the change process itself is one of the most important things for the rules to define, as bureaucratic as that sounds.

But let me reiterate. Help was a phone call away. A phone call she elected not to make. In fact, when the President asked to assume overall coordination, she refused. That precluded him from helping (he would basically be declaring war, and doing it by force. We've already had one civil war, thank you.)

I think there was plenty of red tape at both the federal and state levels. Neither one would have been able to move faster with the current system.

Re: Breaking News September 10 2005, 5:46 AM


<<I think there was plenty of red tape at both the federal and state levels. Neither one would have been able to move faster with the current system.>>


metre
I agree, but most likely for quite different reasons.

Re: Breaking News September 9 2005, 6:03 PM

DJ
The vast majority of Americans don't even know how to balance a checque book or manage a household economy, so how can anyone expect them to know who is in charge of what or what attention certain problems require? We are giving our metric jobs away to the Chinese and Indians and leaving ourselves with the "no brains requuired....clean up in aisle 6" jobs.

metre
You are not far off the mark according to this OECD study,
I posted not that long ago. While somewhat out of date it probably is still relevant, or judging by new parameters it possibly deteriorated even further since then. Refer to the 2005 UN report on human development.
· The April 2001 OECD report stated "60% of Americans aged 16-25 are 'functionally illiterate', meaning that when it came to, say, filling in a form they were stumped - - and that on the simple numerical (reading a timetable, etc) test, they scored at the bottom of all industrial nations." - The Economist, 14 July 2001, pg. 84

Re: Breaking News September 9 2005, 6:19 PM

JS
But let me reiterate. Help was a phone call away. A phone call she elected not to make. In fact, when the President asked to assume overall coordination, she refused. That precluded him from helping (he would basically be declaring war, and doing it by force. We've already had one civil war, thank you.)

metre
Sorry John, we are talking major disasters, not extra heavy snowfall. I think not one person aside local government officials wasted time on which government level was constitutionally empowered to rescue them. These are mere trifles when human lives are sta