In this area which is the centre of tourist,entertainment and clubbing in Birmingham all the pedestrian signs along the canal are given in metric measurements.I have written to Birmingham Council but I have a suspicion they will deny responsibility as I think the area is under the control of British Waterways.Does anyone have any views or comments?Thanks

According to EC/UK law, signs relating to speed limits for barges and other vessels must be in kilometres per hour. This is because the Foreign Office representatives to the EC forgot about waterways when arranging exemptions for road, rail, air and pedestrian signs.

However, if the signs along the canal relate to pedestrians (as in the case described), then it is our understanding that they are covered by the 1994 Traffic Regulations and should therefore be in yards and miles.

Transportation Dept of Birmingham Council have replied saying it is not their problem but British Waterways.They gave a contact name there of Alisa Raeburn 01827 252000,I'll follow up.
For future ref 3 Council employees,Clive Thompson,Conrad A Treanor and Lawrence Braithwaite are the contacts on distance measurements.All have the same e-mail address; Their name/transportation/BCC@BCC.

The Canal Basin in Birmingham has been placed on ARM's list of places that require metric marauding. Are these cast-iron fingerposts and would plates around 3" x 5" be sufficient to cover over the ugly measurements with beautiful ones? And what colour are (a) the posts and (b) the lettering? Roughly how many plates would be required? Dozens? Hundreds? If it's a lot, we'll need some help towards the cost of the plates, lettering and glue. And maybe overnight accommodation if it's more than a one-day raid

Maraudin Castle

I note I have been mentioned on your web site as contact for signs in Birmingham. You will no doubt be aware that defacing of private property, as these signs are, is a criminal offence. We would be happy to talk to you about yoiur concerns if you would care to give me a call

Ailsa Raeburn
01827 252000

I agree! (see my high wycombe post) It's best to talk to those people concerned before going near direct action - and if changes are made by the authorities *SHOW APPRECIATION*!

There's my two pence worth (even if I *DO* hate these nasty metric signs!)

We have noted the message from those who erected the illegal metric signs in Birmingham. There is nothing to discuss. The signs are illegal under the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 1994. Where professional attractive amendments have been made elsewhere, in most cases the authorities have had the good grace to accept they were wrong and have not even reported the matter to the Police.

In two cases - Portsmouth and Hastings - pro-metric vandals have been despatched by Council officials to hack off our illegal Imperial distances - and then notified the Police. In neither case have the Police acted on that information. You are now being given a generous 28 days in which to amend the signs into Imperial distances.

Unless a message is left on this board within 28 days confirming that you will put the signs back to Imperial, an Active Service Unit from ARM will be despatched to Birmingham. Portsmouth vandalised our Imperial signs despite their Chief Solicitor acknowledging to an M.E.P. that there was no legal authority for the Council having erected metric pedetsrian signs in the first place. Neither Portsmouth nor you are able to go beyond your legal powers ('ultra vires'). Those who did so are liable to be surcharged by the District Auditor.

Did you consult the public before erecting the illegal metric signs? Answer - No.

The Council

Attn Alison Raeburn;
Letter was posted by me to you yesterday.Really the issue is straightforward in that if your signs are legal then so be it even if it is sad day that such a renowned and successful British organisation such as yours which has done a lot for the heritage of this country would ignore our traditions in this way.If illegal then they should be altered immediately.Local authorities are quick to take action against ordinary citizens who are felt to be in contravention of metrication and I really feel that your organisation should respect the law which is my policy.

Re: "I note I have been mentioned on your web site as contact for signs in Birmingham. You will no doubt be aware that defacing of private property, as these signs are, is a criminal offence".

Please note, BWMA does not support unlawful activity, whether by local authorities or members of the public.

I have now had answerto my letter re metric signs.I will quote what British Waterways Board write.

"Letter has been discussed with Board's solicitors.Their advise is that since the vast majority of British Waterways' towpaths are not public rights of way they are private land and consequently are not covered by the 1994 act.
Any damage or attempted damage on British Waterways property would be considered by B.W. as criminal damage and proceedings would be brought against those responsible.
B.W.would be happy to meet with anyone to discuss the concerns I expressed."

A reasonable response but I have 2 important questions:
1) Is their solicitor's advice correct I have read on this website that there is case law precedent that where the public have access even if the land is private then the 1994 Act does apply.Can anyone provide chapter and verse so I can contact B.W. again.
2) Does anyone want to join with me in meeting B.W.

Thanks

The Department of Transport, Local Government and the Regions has referred in correspondnce to the fact that a number of recent law cases have held that roads and highways to which the public have access must be signed in accordance with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 1994. A considerable number of local authorities have conceded this already, including Portsmouth, Sunderland, East Cambridgeshire, Arun, London Borough of Enfield and London Borough of Lambeth, all of whom wrongly erected metric pedestrian signs. Schedule 7 Part VII of the TSRGD 1994 stipulate Imperial-only distances.

In your meeting with British Waterways, remind them they are not a private body who can do what they like but a publicly-established authority which receives generous assistance from the taxpayer. Around 85%-plus of British taxpayers would prefer Imperial rather than metric distances on pedestrian signs. Well over 99% of all direction signs in the U.K. are in Imperial only.

Also probe as to *why* they decided on metric. Was it:

1) The preference of the board? - or
2) The whim of the project manager? - or
3) The result of carefully assessing public preference? (was a consumer survey undertaken?) - or
4) Because of government guidelines (if so, ask to see them)
5) To be nice to all Birmingham's teeming foreign tourists?
6) Because they got funding from a specific source on condition they erected metric signs?

Ask for the date of the decision to put up metric signs and ask to see the report which recommended them.

Also ask for a copy of BW's complaints procedure and if possible post details of it on this website.

And ask what the signing policy is on all of Britain's canals.

We would recommend you get answers to these questions *before* any meeting. ARM would certainly be interested in being represented at any meeting to be arranged.


Council of ARM

Thanks will follow up.

British Waterways have now replied.I quote:

"I can only refer you to my previous letter and reiterate that in the Board's opinion the Regulations to which you refer do not apply to the canals in Birmingham.
Sign designs are agreed with the sponsoring party which differs depending on the location and purpose of the sign."

Their commercial manager also sent a copy of their complaints procedure but as the letter also said this procedure only applies to how the Board deals with a particular customer and not to a specific policy it would seem pointless to follow this route.

Any suggestions re follow up. I think I will now raise the issue higher up their management scale but any advice particularly on the legal issue appreciated.

Ask them if they have taken legal advice. It speaks of 'the Board's opinion'. What use is that?! This is a matter of law and therefore needs a *legal* opinion - preferably from a barrister. Most Councils who have taken legal advice have accepted that pedestrian signs along a public highway must be in Imperial units only. Portsmouth Council's Chief Solicitor for example. The Chairman of the Council at Ely (East Cambridgeshire), where we demetricated 122 metric distances. And *many other Councils* (ask us for a full list). And - here's a thing - the U.K. Metric Association itself! On the national Ely website, commenting on the ARM action on 10 November last year, they posted an angry message claiming that 'Britain in still the only country in the world which bans metric units on its signs'.

If they have not taken legal advice, the Board's opinion has no status and they are probably wrong.

ARM has the Birmingham Canal Basin on its list of 'direct action' targets but we will wait a little while longer to see if any new announcement is made via this battle board on their position.

Council of ARM

Information for you and ARM:

1. British Waterways Board got a hefty grant from Birmingham City Council through the so-called 'Birmingham Canal Partnership' on condition that the signs were metric

2. The local BWB region did not have authority from BWB head office to erect metric-only signs

3. BWB has spent over £27,000 to date on metric-only signs along Birmingham's canals

4. They are erecting many more of them

5. The signs give the distance in metres or kilometres to the next pedestrian exits along the canal. There are dozens of them

6. Other signs erected by BWB in the Birmingham area the past are in Imperial only - so there's a ghastly mixture of two sets of measurements

7. Mayor of Birmingham City Council is Euro-enthusiast Sir Albert Bore who is also Chairman of the (unelected) West Midlands Regional Assembly and is pushing hard for the West Midlands Region to be the first to vote for its own elected Regional Assembly (it is competing for this 'honour' with the so-called 'North East Region')

'Mole'

Thanks very interesting.Am awaiting a reply from British Waterways following previous correspondence.

Have now had reply from Dr David Fletcher,Chief Executive,of British Waterways in answer to my original letter.He says
"We endeavour to use Imperial distances on any signs which we install.I am advised that the signs to which you refer in Birmingham were initiated by the local authority, not British Waterways.
You may be interested to know that much of the waterways are still measured in chains.
British Waterways take great care to preserve and promote all aspects of our heritage and have no need to take any new action to abide by the law."

His letter confirms (as we had learnt from a message earlier in this thread) that Birmingham Council were the motivating force behind the use of metric signage.
I have already written to Sir Albert Bore ,the leader of the Labour Council for his comments.However I will write and thank Dr.Fletcher for his reply.

There's some good investigation work going on here. Keep it up.

Categorical statement received from Dr.Fletcher,Chief Executive, of British Waterways:-
"Other parties than BW have paid for metric signs.BW do not have a policy to erect metric signs.BW's actions are not illegal."
With this it is very clear it is down to Birmingham City Council and it would even appear that ownership resides with them.I have not yet had a reply from Sir Albert Bore ,Council Leader.However I will now follow up with this clarification and see what he has to say.
Will keep you informed.

I remember from a few years ago that BW was horrified/incredulous when the government announced metric signs on the waterways.

Care needs to be taken over the equivocal statements from Mr Fletcher.

Note he only says BWB didn't *pay for* the metric signage. BWB West Midlands openly admit to erecting them and say they are going to erect more.

Mr Fletcher adds that 'their actions' are not illegal. That begs the question: what actions? Answer - their actions in *erecting the bollards*!.

I think you will find that BWB are erecting the metric signage using funds from Birmingham City Council or, more likely, 'Birmingham City Partnership' which is a quango consisting of at least two, possibly several, organisations.

Crafty, eh? No-one is really responsible for erecting metric signs all over Birmingham's canals! Would love to see the minutes that approved these bollards. These minutes must be a matter of public record. Perhaps we can make application to see them? After all, it's *our* money they're spending...

Unfortunately Sir Albert Bore,leader of Birmingham City Council,has failed to reply or even acknowledge the 2 letters I have written to him on the subject of the metric signs in the canal basin in Birmingham.I am therefore writing to the District Auditor to ask her to investigate the illegal situation which exists.I will keep the board advised of any developments.

Thank you. These are important posts.

Sir Albert Bore has belatedly replied to the first of the 2 letters I sent him ( no reply yet to my second). His letter is repeated below and it makes interesting reading since it does contradict the statements received from the Chief Executive of British Waterways.

"Highway regulations clearly states that imperial distances must be used on all public highways maintainable at public expense,Birmingham City Council is the Highway Authority and all pedestrian and road signing on the public highway complies with the regulations.However highway regulations do not apply to British Waterways' land and it has been common practice for some time now that canal signs show metric distances.
Birmingham City Council does support British Waterways'
canal enhancements,which has helped in transforming the City.The metric signing associated with the improvement works is on British Waterways' land and is therefore not illegal.The signing also ensures that continuity is maintained along the canal system."

This is in direct contradiction to British Waterways whose statement was clear and precise i.e policy is Imperial.
I will write to all 3 parties( B.C.C., B.W., and District Audit) highlighting anomalies and also pointing out that private land is no defence in the case of public access.
Any other helpful comments would be appreciated.

Mark, you have done some really excellent work in exposing the contradictions which surround these metric signs in Birmingham. The British Waterways Board has some explaining to do!

The main case to quote is I think the House of Lords case of DPP v. Jones and another, House of Lords, 4 March 1999. During the lengthy judgment (the case concerned the right of Druids to walk in certain places around Stonehenge!), Lord Hope of Craighead said:

"At common law the expression 'highway' includes all ways to which the public have access, from footpaths and bridleways to carriageways...the use of the definite article and the addition of the adjective 'public' suggest that a distinction can be drawn between those highways which are public and those which are not. But Section 14A(9) refers simply to a 'highway'...all highways are 'public'..."

In summary, if the public have access, even if the highway passes through private land, it's a public highway and therefore the Traffic Signs Regulations apply

The full judgment is at
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld199899/ljudgmt/jd9.../jones01.ht.

The passage you want is at /jones07.ht


T Bennett

British Waterways Chief Exec has replied again saying British Waterways policy is definitely Imperial and that I should be understanding towards Birmingham City Council because they have helped a lot in canal restoration.
Sir Albert Bore (BCC) has not replied so will give him last chance before drawing media attention to situation.
Are there any other options I should look at?
Thanks

Sir Albert has now replied.He is passing the buck right back to British Waterways.I quote
"However,the signs you are referring to,are located on land owned by British Waterways and therefore it is entirely their decision on whether to use imperial or metric distances.
Any queries relating to canal towpaths should be referred to the British Waterways Board.
I hope this clarifies any misunderstanding"
From this it does seem clear that the decision as to what to do from now on is British Waterways and theirs alone so will now write to them with threat of media exposure.

There we have it, crystal clear. Both authorities denying it was their decision to approve the use of metric distances. ARM has encountered similar evasions over other metric signs, which are often erected as a result of a joint venture of some kind (see, e.g., posting on this site re Crawley Borough Council).

A common feature of metric pedestrian signing is E.U. funding and I have established that the European Union *has* given money to the Birmingham canalside improvements, though I can't be sure it was given specifically for metric signing or whether metric signing was a condition

T Bennett

No Mr Bennett, none of it is some secret EU inspired plot to control the minds of British folks and FORCE us into anything. The EU has made it clear it has no concern of our distance measuring. It is simply British folk who have learnt and accepted the metric system as easier and more sensible to use. A fact acted upon by 96% of the nations of the earth in the last century. And in the 21st century, Britain still struggles to drag itself along! It is you lot who are the heavy-handed, FORCING decent Britons to great expense and ridiculous exapmle to our young folk by your antics. You will drive the relevant departments to make a stand against you soon by just completely finishing the metric program once and for all as a sensible BRITISH decision- Like the British Clothing Industry devising METRIC standard system for all of Europe in clothes sizes. Just dropped in to monitor further. Many thanks :) Bye y'all

I am not sure how you reach such odd statistics but no way have 96% of the nations of the world adopted the metric system.At present I understand from the Guinness Book of records that over 1000 different measurement systems are in use.If you take percentage of the world population using the metric system it is well under 50%.I suggest you broaden your mind and travel a bit more.The British population voted recently in a major opinion poll by 6 to 1 in favour of retaining the imperial system.The respondents to the poll were drawn from all age groups.

USA and Myanmar ( formerly Burma) are the only countries not to use OFFICIALLY the Standard International System. Tho many major US companies are already metric Amway for example- the pride of America!) as is most of its alcohol industry ( lived there too- so don't bother). Seek further information silly person, the facts are available in more places than BWMA website!- I have lived all over the world and lived in well over 15 countries, don't bother telling me to travel more.. or take an interest in obsolete obscure measures of countries which we would hardly know of or have any dealings as a modern nation.
We will soon be sharing a border with a totally metric country- Ireland.. Can't wait to see you tearing down their metric signs and telling them what to do by the Northern Ireland border.
The same stats you gave about preference for/against metric are the same as were found at the time of change to decimal currency- It past, we remained British and only you fools would go back to that cumbersome system ( tho personally, I took an effort to learn what it was and enjoy hearing those old currency terms from a nostalgic, historical perspective).. As for imperial measures, I do not, too complicated and too many inconsistencies- like variations on miles, dry/fluid whatevers..etc. Ridiculous!) Remember, just about 100 years ago, Britons were horrified that women should be allowed to vote.. Need a history lesson? The recipes are metric now, with few even bothering to put imperial equivilents, so we now buy in metric too. Women buy cloth in metres and do so just fine- so stop trying to make our lives more complicated.

QUOTE: "...major US companies are already metric...as is most of its alcohol industry".

COMMENT: When the US liquor industry adopted metric bottles, they downsized the lot without comparable price deceases. We have the records somewhere...must dig them out.

Traditional measurements aren't really complicated, Matahari. I think you just don't like them. Why don't you?

you may find these sites uselful for information about the true state of the world and its use of SI (metric)
www.bwma.co.uk One of my personal favourites (LOL)

which takes you to this excellent site-
www.ukmetrication.com

and the very valuable, sane non-politaical (unlike you lot)
www.metric.org.uk

All very well visited and resourceful sites for people looking for information and the truth which successive governments have been negligent in providing.

Thank you for these links. I should point out, for people's future reference, that pro-metric groups are permanently available on the bwmaOnline links page.

Re the preposterous ouburst from matahari about folks like BWMA 'forcing' British people to cling on to 'outdated' measures, how about these recent statistics:

Support the prosecution of Steve Thoburn for selling bananas by the pound - 7%

Oppose the prosecution of Steve Thoburn - 93%

Normally think in metric distances - 4% (ICM)

Prefer to see miles and yards on British distance signs - 86% (ICM)

Prefer to see kilometres and metres on British distance signs - 8% (ICM)

Support for compulsory metrication - 10% in 2001 (down from 16% in 1997)

Normally think in pounds and ounces (May 2001) - 74%.

Other similar statistics can be found in "The Weight of Public Opinion", published by BWMA and researched by Warwick Cairns - see also links on this website

T Bennett

Can you BWMA people easily read this?

"Fęder ure žu že eart on heofonum; Si žin nama gehalgod to becume žin rice gewurže šin willa on eoršan swa swa on heofonum. urne gedęghwamlican hlaf syle us todęg and forgyf us ure gyltas swa swa we forgyfaš urum gyltendum and ne gelęd žu us on costnunge ac alys us of yfele sožlice"

if not why not? It is plain English- Our Lord's Prayer, written in the common tongue of England at the time our old weight and measures were devised!
I have no DISLIKE for imperial measure, you have so lost track of reality I am sure you believe 'ounces' are being murdered, screaming for the mothers as the nazis drag them away! THEY DO NOT EXIST- they are mathematical concepts designed to make retail and travel etc easy and consistent for all. Imperial measures were very suitable when we were an isolated society and even when we had colonies ( which themselves CHOSE to move on to SI).
Britain is now part of an integrated planet (think crashing Mars probe AGAIN- be glad you weren't on it!) Our young folk deal with a WHOLE planet.. not just an island with 'terrified-of-invader' mentalities! They are our neighbours, we marry eachother and buy holiday homes there.
As per the above verse, I love historical, beautiful old English things - very much. But would not go back to enforcing this old language with its 3 noun genders (like modern German) and extremely complex grammar and extinct words ( as much as I study it and love it) any more than I can see reason in clinging to and forcing more of a system on its way out. Hope that explains. Apart from that, I would not stand around in rags to my ankles in wooden clogs covered in muck shouting 'cockles and mussels alive alive o'. I wear jeans ( sometimes a belly dance costume!) and still feel very English.

Matahari: "Britain is now part of an integrated planet...no longer isolated".

Point 1: As a matter of history, it would be difficult to think of less isolated country than England/Britain, given our global trading links and outward-looking, maritime culture

Point 2: Leaving on one side the issue of just how 'integrated' the world is (some said the USSR was 'integrated', or Yugoslavia), does greater integration mean we should have...one language, one government, one police force, one education system...?

T Bennett

Your argument is that lb/oz and ft/in are old-fashioned and linked to Empire. However, we view weights and measures not as a matter of fashion or nostalgia but of practicality.

For instance: 12 inches in a foot are easier than 100cm or 1000mm in a metre, and 16 ounces in a pound make more sense than 1000g in a kilo.

In instances where UK products need metric markings or specifications, we believe UK industry should be free to adopt them. However, to remain competitive, Britain must also retain the use of inch/pound.

Even without international pressure to retain inch-pound, there are still domestic UK needs, such as consumer demand, market forces, local industries, etc.

"12 inches in a foot are easier than 100cm or 1000mm in a metre"

No they are not

" and 16 ounces in a pound make more sense than 1000g in a kilo"


Not they don't

It is a matter of opinion, and dependent on circumstances.

If you are making calculations, metric can be easier to use since it is decimal-based. However, if you are weighing and measuring, traditional units are usually easier due to their proportions and sub-divisions.

Sir, you asked why imperial confuses me-
Firstly the 'mile'.. the name alone means 1000 and there is not 1000 of anything involved! It is of Imperial Roman derivation- synonymous with oppression and unspeakably cruel regimes ( despite the extreme intelligence of these people). There are many chopping and changing versions of the mile. To determine what 1/4 of a mile is I would need pen and paper.. To determine 1/4 km- can do in my head, same goes across the board for all metric calcualtion.
Same story for ounces- US has variations, further complicated by terms like 'dry' 'fluid' and a different gallon- Dangerous as well as confusing...what I mean by INTEGRATED is that we fly and travel with great abundance throughout and across eachother's lands.
If I weighed 10st7lb ( why 'lb' when the word is POUNDS? it gets often confused with our currency which uses the same word), I then lose 10lbs, how much do I weigh now? Most imperial educated folk need pen for that too and like myself, forget how many lbs in st and young folk don't EVEN know! The calcualtion in SI is done in my head.
Multiplying the length and width of a room in feet and inches is beyond me and most imperial-educated Britons I know cannot do this either.
All, this and many more reasons it is confusing are the reasons folk in Australia, NZ, Japan, India, China, Canada and even the UK made the CHOICE ( not EU jackboot directive) to change to adoption of metric system.
It would not take a genius to understand how this confuses us in the 21st century!
My day starts with a pill I take at .625mg, standard throughout the world as we have integrated and standardised this, not for jackboot control or oppression, but so we can safely take our medication anywhere in the world and still be culturally unaffected!
I take a 1kg (packed and produced in Britain) box of porridge and open a 1 litre carton of soya milk, cook my breakfast on a cooker marked in degrees C only, as is my central heating.
My cosmetic bottles, shampoo etc are all in ml, I use them, in my bath which has thermostat set in degrees C- I am aware that the water will boil at 100 degrees so am careful to set it well below, important for children to know that simply and quickly. ( Not that you lot care about the damage you are doing to them).
I drive my car, put litres of petrol in, note a price increase of 2p ( decimal currency) per litre and can visualise exactly what that means.
I get to ASDA- all produce in metric, price comparison easy and can work out how much 100g of salmon will cost as required in recipe instantly in my head.
Pop into fabric shop, buy metres of fabric for my class and drop it off at seamstress who does all the work far easier in metric too.
I grab a few things for homerenovation in B and Q- everything metric as are all hardware shops in UK, I note no throngs of confused befuddled shoppers.
The weather report tells me it is 21 degrees.
I register with my new doctor in Holland Park, nurse measures my height at 176cm on a metric only tape on the wall and weighs me on scale at 65kg.
I sit and read the British papers, all of them I learnt already measure precise metric dimensions, even the column widths. Why? Because that's what we USE now by choice of said British newspapers. And I still feel very English!
So I ask you WHAT USE WOULD I EVEN HAVE TO CLUTTER MY MIND WITH ANTIQUATED TERMS IRRELEVANT TO MY LIFE?
No-one is talking about taking away our freedoms or values, we are talking about living in the real world in the 21st century, where, like the English language having become 'lingua franca' for most of the planet ( do I hear you lot complaining?), the metric system has been accepeted for our weights and measures! Sometimes we need the good grace to say 'we can't have it ALL our way'.
There are far worse things which affect our British values to worry about today than weights and measures.
By the way, I drove out of my street today, noticing the width restriction between 2 poles which says 7'0".. I don't understand that but can clearly see my car fits, so I drive through. However ( the posts are at corner of Hornton St and High St Kensington), the white paint on the inside of post is all scraped off due to many many drivers NOT understanding 7'.
Finally, to the paranoid person who thinks I am not who I say I am- leave me your number.. will happily call you and verify.

QUOTE: "...There are many chopping and changing versions of the mile".

ANS: No there aren't, there are just two: the statue mile and the nautical mile.

QUOTE: "To determine what 1/4 of a mile is I would need pen and paper..."

ANS: You are presumably trying to work out what a quarter-mile is in yards. You are using the imperial system wrongly. A mile is a mile and a yard is a yard. You are not supposed to go from one to the other. If you are using long distances, use miles; if you are using short distances, use yards.

It may be helpful to think of the imperial system in the same way as time. One does not say "What is a quarter-day?" and then use a pencil and paper to arrive at the equivalent in minutes (360 minutes). A quarter of a day is a quarter of a day. It defines itself. So, the only thing you need to know in order to determine what a quarter-mile is, is a mile. Just divide by four. Answer: one quarter-mile.

QUOTE: "Same story for ounces - US has variations, further complicated by terms like 'dry', 'fluid'.

ANS: A dry ounce refers to mass, a fluid ounce refers to fluids. It is no different from the metric system which uses grams and millilitres for dry and fluid measures.

QUOTE: If I weighed 10st7lb...I then lose 10lbs, how much do I weigh now?

ANS: 9 stone, 11 pounds.

QUOTE: Multiplying the length and width of a room in feet and inches is beyond me and most imperial-educated Britons I know cannot do this either.

ANS: You're not supposed to use feet and inches. Just use inches - or feet.

QUOTE: "...the UK made the CHOICE (not EU jackboot directive) to change to adoption of metric system".

ANS: There are 58 million people in Britain, yet you refer to the UK making a choice as though it is only one person. Are you certain that every one of those 58m people agree with you? If what you mean is that the UK made a choice through Parliament, then name for us the the Act of Parliament.

QUOTE: "My day starts with a pill I take at .625mg".

ANS: Just be careful you don't get the decimal point on the wrong place.

QUOTE: "Not that you lot care about the damage you are doing to them".

ANS: Don't get like APP.

QUOTE: "WHAT USE WOULD I EVEN HAVE TO CLUTTER MY MIND WITH ANTIQUATED TERMS IRRELEVANT TO MY LIFE?"

ANS: None, you obviously don't like to use imperial.

QUOTE: "No-one is talking about taking away our freedoms or values".

ANS: That is exactly what the metic lobby are talking about.

The rest of what you say is an account of how you enjoy using the metric system. Good for you. Just give other people the same level of tolerance you want for yourself. Just remember, we don't campaign for you to receive a criminal record just because you prefer to use metric.

"The recipes are metric now", yeah right!

And as for that "average day story" about only seeing metric, I could do a similar one with just imperial! (but there again I get out more)

Well- again, I would have to invite you on my shopping trip and to enjoy my daily life in a modern English metropolis.. Seems you have moved into the little medieval olde worlde pageant village after all- Lovely thatched rooves and rosy cheeked, polite children skipping safely down the cobbled roads :)
Do you read many women's magazines, Stevie? I do, I read about ALL of them- part of my job and lifestyle. Some use imperial in brackets after the metric, most have abandoned imperial completely (especially young women's magazines)- even in the good old Tory mouthpiece Sunday drivels. (Pick it up and check)

I work in London - there are not nice thatched houses

unfortunately.

QUOTE: "Seems you have moved into the little medieval olde worlde pageant village after all- Lovely thatched rooves and rosy cheeked, polite children skipping safely down the cobbled roads".

What is it with metric supporters that, when they lose the argument, they starting talking about Olde England and pre-decimal coinage? What is the connection?

It's a case of supremely low intelligence.

Consider the posts, they appear to "love all things british" then go on to mock identities of Britishness. They ridicule an age old system with pure hatred then reflect on how nice the old coinage is!

Some people, when losing an argument, back off quietly and hope that no-one notices, others go the "other way" and start equating use of imperial with child abuse and thus turn ridicule on themselves while all the other more sincere and factually correct metric people cringe.

We'll have to face the fact that while most of us prefer imperial to metric and some of us prefer metric to imperial (ie decent people) there will always be those out there who, for whatever reason, hate words like "inch" and "foot" and proclaim that the world is laughing at us while wiping the foam of spittle from their mouths. These people cannot argue because they see themselves as superior almost on a sort of "race" line.

*Wiping froth from my lips* ( hope that's what it was!)
Steve, I can well afford your caddy services, just wonder if you'd have the strength to keep up with me after all the energy expended on contriving witticisms and put downs to people contributing fairly in an open forum!
What argument have we lost? Britain is well into getting on with its metric program, and no matter how I feel about my Britishness or any other metric supporter for that matter- We don't identify our Britishness with weights and measures.. anymore than any of our Britishness was LOST when we let go of pre-decimal currency. It is really no different as you are finding out. No riots yet over those gallons at the pumps... after how long? No-one weeping at the pump that they cannot feel British anymore having put litres into their cars? No, folks, not anymore than they would using decimal currency to pay for it!

Re:
"Support the prosecution of Steve Thoburn for selling bananas by the pound - 7%"

Not strictly true, he was prosecuted primarily for using an illegal weighing machine. The bananas came into it because that was the transaction that caught him in the act of using them. There were other counts but this was the main one.

This case has been grossly misrepresented by the media and the Metric Martys themselves. Using scales that were no longer legal mean't that over time Mr Thoburn could not guarantee the accuracy of the amounts he was weighing, because they were no longer subject to regular calibration checks by the WML.

If people new the full story behind this and other cases they might not be so solidly behind them.

To Pip,
The reason why the weighing machines was illegal was because they were calibrated in lb/oz, not that they were inaccurate.

To Matahari,
You say: "What argument have we lost? Britain is well into getting on with its metric program..."

The reason why you have lost is because Britain's metric programme is being propelled by criminalisation of the traditional system and compulsory metric regulations. To win the argument, you have to get people to WANT to go metric - without legal force.

>The reason why the weighing machines was illegal was
>because they were calibrated in lb/oz, not that they
>were inaccurate.

I would expect scales have an expiration date on their calibration, after which you have to get them recalibrated. I would also expect that that calibration expiration date was set to the date when the WMF (?) officially switched to metric.

That of course means that the scales he was using were no longer officially calibrated which made his transactions illegal.

I think it's also obvious that you can't let a trader "calibrate" his own scales either...

Ralf

Calibration or lack of was not the offence. His offence was to use an unstamped machine and the reason why it was unstamped was because it was not metric.

Matahari dancing chick:

"Steve, I can well afford your caddy services"
I honestly think you cannot, however I am not going into my rates here - that is between myself and my customers

"What argument have we lost?"

The one that leads you to say bizzare things. I hate to say this but when I look at (for example) Ralf's post I see him questioning our beliefs and principles with tricky questions and solid argument, however your posts tend to (eventually) turn to "olde woldy" and "thatched cottage" arguments with a few insults to those cornish people who still run around their maypoles, not excludng things about Child abuse of course! Sorry but that's how it appears to me - you "hate" imperial rather than challenge it with why metric is better. Personally I find it difficult to "hate", say, a kilometre.

"Britain is well into getting on with its metric program, and no matter how I feel about my Britishness or any other metric supporter for that matter."

There you go again, one moment saying how backward GB is by "clinging" on to this "archaic" system, then suddenly you say that we're all metric now! Very confusing!

"No-one weeping at the pump that they cannot feel British anymore having put litres into their cars?"

I have to say I have never put, say, 4 gallons or 18 litres of petrol in my car! Hasn't it occured to you that people either "fill 'er up" or put ,say, twenty quid in?
The only annoyance is checking if my MPG is correct but since i spend my driving day trying to get in and out of london most of that mileage is spent throwing gallons of petrol straight down the drain! (Oi! Livingstone! Stoppit!).

My suggestion? Instead of insulting the folk on these boards (including myself) why not get into a hot argument? Pose sensible questions, put us on our back feet, get us to wriggle before we argue back, put us on the spot. Simply insulting us just makes us laugh! I personally never get upset by your posts and I doubt anyone else does too, so concentrate your energy on having a damn good argument rather than pretend you are automatically right and we are wrong.

I do hope that you see where I am coming from there.

BWMA: You are right about the nature of the actual offense, but my point was really about the implications over time, had he been allowed to continue using that machine.

Rebelling against the law as he did he placed himself outside the legal system of quality assurance testing by TSOs, designed to ensure that all weighing and measuring equipment remain within accepted tolerances while still in use for trade.

TSOs can only carry out random/routine inspections on approved equipment, and are bound by law to prevent non-approved equipment from being used for trade.

The same goes for all those other traders around the country who are actively rebelling in the same way.

Essentially, your point is valid; TSOs must be able to test the weighing machines to accepted standards.

However, the issue in the Thoburn case is that using a lb/oz machine was not illegal. Therefore, presumably, TSOs were obliged to test it.

Steve Thoburn says he can use lb/oz under the 1985 Weights and Measures Act - the government says he cannot.

In fact there is no fundamental reason why a trader cannot be left to calibrate his own scales, or arrange for their calibration, upon his own initiative. Trading Standards Officers are not required.

If customers think he may be cheating them they could bring in a standard 1lb weight to check for themselves - or reweigh their goods when they got home - or take the weighed-out goods to a private weighing service for comparison. Alternatively, they might prefer to patronise shops in which the scales are calibrated and certified by some independent body, to which the trader voluntarily subscribes and whose mark he will then be permitted to display.

If a trader gives short weight, that's fraud, and he can be sued accordingly. Or simply boycotted.

Whoever owns the units of measurement the trader chooses to use will have to provide either standards for comparison or a reproducible definition. In the case of imperial units (which can best be said to belong to the British people) a single defining Act of Parliament is all we need.

>In fact there is no fundamental reason why a trader
>cannot be left to calibrate his own scales, or
>arrange for their calibration, upon his own
>initiative. Trading Standards Officers are not
>required.
>If customers think he may be cheating them they could
>bring in a standard 1lb weight to check for
>themselves - or reweigh their goods when they got
>home - or take the weighed-out goods to a private
>weighing service for comparison.

Sorry Paul, what you just wrote is so bizarre to me that I can't believe you actually wrote this.
Letting a trader calibrate his own scales, counting on the "open market" to single him out as a cheater ?
Expecting people to bring their own "standard pound" to check if it is so ?
Compulsory scales calibration by the state has been around for centuries, believe me, they will have had good reason for introducing it...

Incredible.

Ralf

Oppression by the state has been around for millenia. So did they "have a good reason for introducing" that too?

If you imagine there's anything remotely bizarre about what I wrote you can have no comprehension of how the market works. Look around. Even today there are numerous trades in which the seller does his own quality control and guarantees to provide what he promises. There are also numerous trade bodies providing standards, calibration and certification services to traders. For example, CORGI.

Customers don't have to check the trader's weights or certification every day, any more than TSO's check every scale in the land every day. Only when they have particular reason to be suspicious. A trader that's caught cheating even once will lose a great deal of goodwill - not to mention what it costs him to be sued. Probably consumer magazines like "Which?" would do most of the actual checking (as they do already over a wide range of products and product specifications).

Thank you Ralf- it is clear when they are so desperate to speak of customers needing to bring their own old lb weights to see what's going on when successive governments have finally legislated (as has always been the case in ANY land) a standard for weights and measure.
Really, it IS done now, with most shops volunteering to use metric ony (again they refuse to note that no 'jackboot' has demanded this at gunpoint- just got on with it with British dignity and acceptance of something new- and, to alot of older people I interview, an interesting challenge to their minds!)
BWMA 'warriors' are serving only to add to the long- term confusion which certainly was around briefly when we changed our whole currency (something with which we identified and enjoyed) to decimal. The blame rests squarely with all governments who neglect (cowardly) the issue and allow silly myths as promoted by BWMA to go on! Instead of healthy promotion of a safe, consistent system for the world we NOW live in.
All the more shame for BWMA supporters who seem to be mainly Tory or UKIP or BNP or probably NF supporters too, commonly motivated by fear, jealousy and hatred of anything 'foreign'- to realise it was the Thatcher administration which implimented metricly-predominant education.
STEVE.. metric-thinking people are not ogres as you'd love to paint. We are mainly ENGLISH (the ones I mainly deal with) and are pro-advancement of our nation (as were the Japanese, Australians etc) who adopted the metric system for their nation's benefits.
Nothing to do with the EU either!
What disheartens me is that you go on about feeling un-British because of metric, yet I have just left the Tube where I stood up for an elderly lady being flung about on the lurching train as (easily) 12 men sat in my carriage not even 'thinking' about giving her a seat. I stood and led her gently and safely to MY seat and watched them bury their heads in shame! THAT is what I call having dignity and doing what is 'British' and right to me! It seems you 'men' who would tear at me for caring about our future are just as bad- I stand all the time and embarrass these 'English Gentlemen' the same way, every chance I get
on public transport- Because manners are a value of Britishness which I want to defend more than a passing system of weights and measure!
As I always say, every time I read of a 'demetrication' of a s