We are pleased to release a report on the case of Adam Doggett v. Broxbourne Borough Council.
This was where the roof of Mr Doggett's jeep was damaged due to confusion caused by an illegal metric sign.
To visit the report, copy-paste this link into your browsers:
http://www.bwmaonline.com/Transport%20-%20Compensation%20Claim.htm

From the bottom of the web page referred to above:

"BWMA wishes to hear of any other accidents or damage to vehicles due to metric-only signing. Contact details available from the link at the top right of this page."

How about accidents caused by people painting over metric signs?

I have heard of an incident where a lorry stopped at the entrance to a bridge because of a height sign obscured by anti-metric activists. The driver wasn't sure if he could safely pass underneath.

A delivery van crashed into the back of the lorry. The driver of the van was killed.

Pip,

Your message is little short of libellous unless you can substantiate your claim with full particulars e.g. location, date, and name of driver killed etc. Can you?

Having recently agreed with Pip over something and seeing him as less of a monster I now feel like I need a shower for thinking that way.

Will interestingly wait for pip to post the webaddress of an article that would have covered such a front page story.

I doubt we'll see an apology here - I fear this will be the last message on this thread.

I don't know the full details at present but I will try to find out and let you know.

I can only say at this point that it came from a reasonable source.

As for it being libelous, I haven't made any specific accusations nor have I directed it at any particuar individual, I only passed on what I have heard.

I did so to alert you to the fact that accidents may happen as an indirect result of such activities in unexpected ways.

If you have a conscience (I am sure you have) you may wish to consider it.

For heaven's sake, man - think about what you're suggesting!

"A delivery van crashed into the back of the lorry. The driver of the van was killed."

Are you honestly saying that lorry drivers who stop their lorry or park their lorry are liable to having vehicles drive quickly into the back of them killing the driver of said vehicle?

Show some intelligence

It depends on the circumstances. A stationary vehicle on a spot where other drivers least expect them to be and where there is very little advanced warning can be quite a hazard, e.g. round a blind bend.

Any way I won't say any more on this until I have more details.

That fool should have STOPPPED then, SHOULDN'T he? He must have broken the speed limit - what about when lorries stop at crossings obstructing motorists behind them from seeing the crossing due to dize? Shall we get rid of all zebra and pellican crossings?

Think about the fact that if you break a 30mph speed limit by 5mph, you go another seven yards further. That van driver was probably someone who'd do things like use his phone while driving - he should have at least considered overtaking the lorry. If he was a competent driver, he would have seen that lorry from far back.

Don't attach too much significance to formal speed limits.

Safe driving is really about judging and acting according to prevailing conditions. I don't excuse the van driver from mistakes he may have made at the time of the accident but please remember he was only human.

pip,

I don't want to labour the point about your posting being near-libellous, but you have stated as a fact that a sign was obscured by 'anti-metric activists'.

If that is untrue, you have undoubtedly committed a libel (look up the meaning in an ordinary English dictionary), though scarcely actionable as you have not named an individual.

But you have come close by referring to a small group of people, viz., 'anti-metric activists', of whom I admit to being one.

I am sorry to say it, but if you cannot post further and reasonably full particulars of what you claim to have heard from 'a reasonable source', you are going to have a big credibility problem on any future postings you make on this board.

It may be worth noting that to date there have been two recorded instances of accidents being caused by signs in metric units only - one because the metric-only height sign was not understood, the other because an Imperial height was wrongly converted (about 9" too low) when replaced with a metric height. In the former case, I succeeded in obtaining £442 compensation for the victim.

If the unlikely sequence of events described in your posting were true, there would be a potentially huge claim against the 'anti-metric activists' said to be responsible for 'obscuring' the sign

Tony

"If the unlikely sequence of events described in your posting were true, there would be a potentially huge claim against the 'anti-metric activists' said to be responsible for 'obscuring' the sign"

I don't wish to labour the issue either, but I have to respond.

Firstly why is it so unlikely?

As for the potential claim, even as a lay-person I can see the pitfalls.

But that is not the real point of this. Tampering with hazard warning signs is a potentially dangerous business and the scenario described is one way an accident could happen. That is not to say that it didn't or that I made it up because to the best of my knowledge that is not so.

I call upon you and fellow "activists" to in future limit your campaign to letter writing or some form of protest that does not involve un-authorised ammendments to actual signs.

pip

You call upon me?

Well, I first call upon *you* to come with even a scintilla of evidence for the outrageous story about a death allegedly due to anti-metric activism that you have posted on this board.

After you have done that, you'll be better qualified to call upon others to do things

Tony,

You're missing the point.

Suppose I were able to present all the evidence you asked for here and now.

What would you do then?

Is it right to wait for hard evidence of an actual incident to happen before eliminating any risk?

I made the call in the interest of public safety, including you're own.

If it falls on deaf ears then there is nothing more to be said.

pip,

On 2 April, you posted a message on this board which said: "I have heard of an incident..."

The incident was said to involve a death attributable directly to the actions of an anti-metric activist, or group of activists.

You must have 'heard' about it from someone.

Well, get your facts as soon as possible and present them on this board where we can all judge them for oursleves.

They sometimes say: "Put up or shut up".

In your case, can I respectfully advise you: "Put up - or withdraw and apologise for your message"

I make no apology.

I do give you my word that I will track this down and post the details.

I don't know how long it will take but watch this space.

P.S. I am not bluffing.

May I draw a parrallel with a fatal accicent in Hartley Wintney about a year ago. A pensioner crossed an unlit road on the edge of the village and was struck by a motorist and died. At the inquest the coroner gave a verdict of accident death and criticised the local council for failing to provide street lighting.

Can we cool this down a little and realise that the story is entirely false?

Pip is protected from being legally challenged since he is hiding behind the anonymity of the web - so we're hardly going to see him in court are we?

I cannot believe this daft story is still getting air time! We're looking at it the wrong way!

It's an absurd predicament - re-read Pips initial "news item" for crying out loud!

Can you imagine all those "van drivers" that have been "killed" due to "lorries" caught in a traffic jam and thus being being "stationary"? All those "van driver"'s families' lives ruined due to stationary lorries with broken down engines? The massacre that is the "van drivers" caught crashing into lorries having their tyres replaced?

It's all very stupid - and laughable to boot.

Though Lord knows why.

I posted a message that should have alerted anti-metric actvitists to the potential dangers of interfering with hazard warning signs.

The only re-action was to challenge me with regard to producing the details of the incident mentioned. I recieved no assurance that safety was of any concern.

I am appalled and sickened by the dismissive attitude of Tony Bennett and SteveH toward the issue of human safety.

OK so be it.

SteveH dont be fooled by my anonimity. When I am finished you will know exactly who I am.

Tony Bennett I am throwing down the gauntlet! Up to now you have been waging your 'campaign' virtually un-opposed. That is no longer the case.

Well said Pip. Why don't we start "Active Resistance to Imperial measurements". I think a petition is needed for us pro-metric people to bring in the kilometre!

How about a load of us write to the newspapers to start with?

Richard and pip,

1. Rather than form a new group: "Active Resistance to Imperial Measurements", it would be better to join one of the existing groups fighting this cause; the best two would be the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrat Party.

2. Pip, I remind myself that you have solemnly promised on this bulletin board to post full particulars of the incident you described on 2nd April as soon as possible. However, I will just add for the record that neither I nor any other ARM activist would interfere with a road sign where there was any significant risk of causing an additional risk to motorists or other road users. It is our policy to inform those erecting illegal metric signs in writing and only act when they have persistently refused to comply with the law.

Kindly remember that the accident to Adam Doggett's jeep was caused by an illegal metric-only road sign

pip,

May I observe that you appear to be much more skilled at throwing down gauntlets than picking them up

I was getting bored (once again) to this stupid "van hits lorry" thing until your "gauntlet" comment, Tony!

Thanks for re-adding the humour to this thread.

Pip, I'm perplexed and exited by your impending "coming out" - please! tell us more!

I think Richard should actually join the liberal democrats or some obscure party like "conservatives in europe" rather than the labour party.

Either that or join the newly formed:

World Association Notifying Kilometres on England's Roads

I think Richard could be the right man to chair that group!

Just remember, task #1: Convince 97% of the public that they prefer kilometres, not miles!!!

I'm liking this thread now!

SteveH is always good for a laugh!

Yes, it always *is* good for a laugh!

(nice to see you softening your tone)

Tony wrote

<<Rather than form a new group: "Active Resistance to Imperial Measurements", it would be better to join one of the existing groups fighting this cause; the best two would be the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrat Party.>>

Why don't you join the Conservative Party or UK Independance Party then and scrap your "Active Resistance to Metrication" group. They both dislike metrication.

Re ARM policy:

"However, I will just add for the record that neither I nor any other ARM activist would interfere with a road sign where there was any significant risk of causing an additional risk to motorists or other road users."

(1) There shouldn't be *any* risk.

(2) You not only take the law into your own hands but that of peoples safety. The assessment as to the "significance" of un-authorised ammendments or removals is yours and yours alone.

(3) If the sign in the Doggett case had been in both imperial and metric, as allowed by the regulations, Mr Doggett's accident would have been avoided as well as any risk to those drivers more familiar with metric. But given that ARM disapprove of dual signs it hardly attests to a genuine concern for safety.

Richard,

After 12 years in Harlow Labour Party (1985 to 1997), I left to join the U.K. Independence Party because they were the only political party making the democratic case for restoring the ability to govern ourselves. I hadn't realised the issue was important until 1997. Oh, and accepting a £1 million bribe from Bernie Ecclestone in exchange for allowing tobacco advertising in Formula One for another few years was another factor.

Only *after* joining UKIP did I become at all interested in metrication. Only when the government decided to do something entirely alien to all that Britain stands for, namely make criminals out of people and their customers happy to use their own familiar system of measurements, and despite 90%-plus public opposition, did I wonder what all the fuss was about.

Gradually I came to see how stamping out Imperial measures coincided with stamping out government by Westminster, and indeed stamping out our very existence as a separate nation

pip:

"If the sign had been in both Imperial and metric, as permitted by the regulations, the accident to Doggett's jeep could have been avoided"

Tony:

"If the sign had been in Imperial only, as permitted by the regulations, and like 95%-plus of all other bridge height signs in the United Kingdom, the accident would have been avoided".


P.S. The sign is now back in Imperial only: ' 4' 7" '. The erection of a metric sign to replace the previous Imperial sign was costly in more ways than one.

An email address is as anonymous as posting anonymously.

Unless you happen to be a nasty hacker

We are still waiting Pip for the details of this supposed accident.
If you have been rumbled then have the decency to say so.

<<
Gradually I came to see how stamping out Imperial measures coincided with stamping out government by Westminster, and indeed stamping out our very existence as a separate nation
>>

I come from a mixed marriage - my mother is English and my father Dutch. One of their wedding presents was a cookery book (in Dutch). As a child I remember seeing my mother converting from grammes to ounces so that she could use her British scales. Almost as soon as SOuth Africa went metric, I bought her a set of metric weights which I know she uses regularly.

I was 13 when South Africa adopted a decimal coinage. Although the conversion was a little ragged on teh edges, the Apatheid GOvernement went ot great lengths to prevent expl;oitation of the population (especuially the black population). Coins were almost identical, stamps were almost identical and prices were frozen. By and large the population (black and white) trusted the SA Government with that sort of thing.

My university degree was in Physics and it was then that I saw the benefits of the metric system. Again the Governemnt imposed manuy laws to smooth the change over, but the trust that had been gained over decimalisation was still there so the Governement had the support of the population at large (black and white). (All right - their policies on race stank).

In contrast, when the UK adotped the decimal system, many saw this as a way in sneaking in proce increases. The Post Office led the way raising the proce of a first class letter from 2.5d to 2.5p (an increase 140%). As a result the British Government lost the trust of the public on this sort of thing.

I have noticed a few other things in the UK:

1. During the Falklands Campaign I beleive that the Herald Tribune was not on display on newstands where it had previously been on display. The newspaper vendor kept copies under the conter and produced a copy upon request. (a subtle piece of control of the media by HMG).

2. Our record for foreign languages is nothign short of appalling. Every few years, we pay lip service to improving the teaching of foreign languages in schools, but each initiative withers and dies, The result is that very few people in Britian can read an newspaper that is in a foreign language. (Another piece of sublte control of what we read).

3. When Britian adopted the PAL television system , we adopted a slightly different standard to the standard used in N. Europe. The reason given by HMG was that this gave better reception, but it also meant that if anybody wamted to watch foreign programs, they needed a special television set. (A peice of subtle control over what we watch).

4. WHen the metrication program was halted by Mrs Thatcher, the de facto posiiton was that anything to do with exporting goods had been metricated, but that the man in the street had little exposure to metrication. As a result of inertia, he would disregard anything that was not in Imperial or Customatry untis and since information in these units only came from UK or US sources, we have another subtel bit of corntrol of information dissemination.

This leads me to my final conclusion - HMG is happy for the imperial system to continue being used (and also for our lack of foreign languages to continue) as it helps them control what the masses hear and read.

Tony

All they had to do to make it legal was add an imperial sign. They didn't have to the remove the metric one. Had they done so no money would have been wasted.

1. During the Falklands Campaign I beleive that the Herald Tribune was not on display on newstands where it had previously been on display. The newspaper vendor kept copies under the conter and produced a copy upon request. (a subtle piece of control of the media by HMG).


##Dream on mate! Ever heard of the Mirror? The Guardian? THE MORNING STAR????


2. Our record for foreign languages is nothign short of appalling. Every few years, we pay lip service to improving the teaching of foreign languages in schools, but each initiative withers and dies, The result is that very few people in Britian can read an newspaper that is in a foreign language. (Another piece of sublte control of what we read).

##International language: English. As a welshman I take on board that the most important language in the world to learn is English. The most important language for those in Europe to learn is .... English.
However I am now learning Welsh! (at last)

3. When Britian adopted the PAL television system , we adopted a slightly different standard to the standard used in N. Europe. The reason given by HMG was that this gave better reception, but it also meant that if anybody wamted to watch foreign programs, they needed a special television set. (A peice of subtle control over what we watch).

## As an avid TV/Audio fan and hobbyist, errr, what the hell are you on about? I sincerely hope that your sorry excuse has nothing to do with D-MAC?!?
Did you have sky analogue during the 90's? Could you never watch German output? French?

4. WHen the metrication program was halted by Mrs Thatcher, the de facto posiiton was that anything to do with exporting goods had been metricated, but that the man in the street had little exposure to metrication. As a result of inertia, he would disregard anything that was not in Imperial or Customatry untis and since information in these units only came from UK or US sources, we have another subtel bit of corntrol of information dissemination.

#Pity the downtrodded Brit for being forced to use imperial "in the street"!

This leads me to my final conclusion - HMG is happy for the imperial system to continue being used (and also for our lack of foreign languages to continue) as it helps them control what the masses hear and read.

#Now you're being silly (and you know it!)

<<
##Dream on mate! Ever heard of the Mirror? The Guardian? THE MORNING STAR????
>>

HMG can slap a thing called a "D-notice" on any of the above newspapers, but if a D-notice were slapped on the Herald Tribune, they would just give the well-known two-figured salute.

D-notices are however to the best of my knowledge hardly used since HMG knows that if they used frivillously, public opinion will force the power out of their hands. Mrs Thatcher tried it with Spycatcher, but ended up with considerable egg on her face.

pip: 2 April: "I heard of an incident..."

pip: 3 April: "I don't know the full details but will try to find out".


15 April to pip - How are your enquiries going? Anything to report yet?

Nothing yet, enquiries are continuing.

Personally I would apologise and move on.

I have done this in the past and it really is not that difficult