Having been in Scotland for 3 days, it seemed that the vast majority of height and width signs appeared to be in metres and feet. This for the time being seems the most logical and there is absolutely no justification to having them just in feet/inches.

I would imagine that all HGVs and buses in the UK have their heights in both metres and feet/inches. Then we consider a driver who has come from say France. He does not know his vehicle's height in feet/inches when he comes to and imperial only sign. What does he do? Assuming he knows the conversion, he has to quickly calculate the height in feet by which time he may be at the bridge. Or does he stop to work it out (assuming there is a place to stop).

I have read on the BWMA site that ARM have defaced perfectly legal signs that have metres and feet/inches on them. Consider the scenario above and then think of the potential problems you could be causing ARM.

BTW, don't anyone mention American drivers as I doubt that many drivers cross the atlantic with their lorries.

"cloud cuckoo land" springs to mind.

How about the worded warning signs that are in English?

(bangs forehead with palm of hand, Basil fawlty style)

What the hell are you on about "cloud cuckoo land"?
This is a potential problem that could easily happen. Anyway, what harm is it doing having metres on the sign too? You still get your precious feet and inches on it.

Sorry! I just realised that I posted the above message twice by accident on different topics.

My main point was:

"How about the worded warning signs that are in English? "

If we rely too much on the English language when perfectly reasonable internationally agreed signs exist, a prosecution, based soley on such a sign is likely to fail, especially if the driver is not very familar with English.

eh?

This may be off topic, but when I was in England last there seemed to be a tremendous shortage of words on traffic signs....and too many pictures. Here in the U.S. words are more common. Is there some sort of legislation that requires the use of pictures in order to accommodate foreigners?

Bud,

It may be due to the decline in educational attainment in British schools which (coincidentally) began around the time Britain decided to go metric

Bud wrote
<<
This may be off topic, but when I was in England last there seemed to be a tremendous shortage of words on traffic signs....and too many pictures. Here in the U.S. words are more common. Is there some sort of legislation that requires the use of pictures in order to accommodate foreigners?
>>

There is no legislation but there is the Vienna convention on road signs which is designedto give a certain degree of harmony to road signs accross all of Europe. Due to the diversity of languages, it is essential that pictures be used to counteract this.

FOr axample,. a few years ago I drove from Frankfurt to London - a distance of 700km. In so doing I drove through five countries (Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France and UK) and through four different languages areas - German, Dutch, French and English.

"a few years ago I drove from Frankfurt to London - a distance of 700km"

for the benefit of most of those on this board would you mind telling us what that is in a measurement we understand?

Bud: Signs are circular or triangular with a symbol inside. There is commonly a white square text box underneath which contains something in English, or English and Welsh in Wales.

<<
for the benefit of most of those on this board would you mind telling us what that is in a measurement we understand?
>>

You cannot make a rational judgment between two systems if you do not understand one of them.

I do understand both, but one is native to me.

You could post entirely in French and I'd get by, but I'd prefer it if you posted in English or both.

Bud,

the definitive description of British road signs can be found on http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm.

Tony Bennett wrote

<<
It may be due to the decline in educational attainment in British schools which (coincidentally) began around the time Britain decided to go metric
>>

The UK metrication program was that first Industry, the Governemnt and Education would go metric and after that things that affected the public in general would go metric. The first three steps have happened, but not the last. AS a result, schoolchildren (who do not see the inside workings of Government or of Industry), see numerical subjects as being irrelevant because they are taughgt in one language (metric) but see another language being used in the world around them.

A little like the fact that Latin was used in earlier years in the legal system and in court documents so that the man in the street would not understand them.

Bud,

There is considerable similarity between British road signs and those elsewhere in Europe. For example, the Dutch road signs can be found on

http://www.minvenw.nl/cend/dco/home/data/international/gb/verkeersb_engels.pdf

Don't panic - it is an English translation!

The use of blue in the sign appears to be totally different from it's use in the UK.

eg- a 30 on a blue background means it is an offence to go *below* that speed.

Also the traffic light situation is very different.

We also don't use "end of" signs

We also dont use yellow, I would never work out the sign for "end of priority road" without having looked at that document.

Note how "STOP" is in English for all countries, btw?

"One way road" on a dutch sign would translate to "at a minimum you should be going this way" if it were a UK sign (ie nonsense!).

there are similarities though.

By the way - try driving in Ireland (just think "America"!!)

Steve, you are nit-picking - but some nits bite:

<<
eg- a 30 on a blue background means it is an offence to go *below* that speed.
>>
The same applies in the UK (check your Highway Code), exceptr that here it is mph, not km/h.


<<
We also don't use "end of" signs
>>
We do - I have seen them.


<<
I would never work out the sign for "end of priority road" without having looked at that document.
>>
We have never had the concept of "Priority from the right (or rather, in the UK from the left)". Until the 1970's most of the continent used the "prioroity frm the right rule" - ie anybody could cut in front of you from a side street. The continent is now abandoning that concept - in Germnay for example, I noticed that the only streets that still keep that concept are in 30km/h residential zones.

<<
Note how "STOP" is in English for all countries, btw?
>>
Yes - and before the War we used to use "HALT" on our road signs until our Government saw sense to use a Universal word.

<<Steve, you are nit-picking - but some nits bite:>>
And some nits that are bitten bight back too!

<<
eg- a 30 on a blue background means it is an offence to go *below* that speed.
>>
<<The same applies in the UK (check your Highway Code), exceptr that here it is mph, not km/h.>>

I was referring to the UK!
Other blue signs in NL would have a nonsense meaning here - that was my point!


<<
We also don't use "end of" signs
>>
<<We do - I have seen them.>>

Not in symbols you haven't!



<<
Note how "STOP" is in English for all countries, btw?
>>
<<Yes - and before the War we used to use "HALT" on our road signs until our Government saw sense to use a Universal word.>>

An english word?
It only applies to stop signs though.

I don't really know what all the fuss is about but take a look at this web page:

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/signs04.shtml

In particular look at the sign entitled "End of minimum speed limit"

Steveh wrote: "Note how "STOP" is in English for all countries, btw?"

Obviously Steveh does not know any other language but English. (Apart from a couple of Welsh words of course) That's a pity Steve. A whole new world would open up for you if you could understand people with a completely different cultural background. I'm sure Martin and Ralf will agree with me.

Anyway, to the point now:

The Dutch word for "to stop" is "stoppen". (It's a Germanic language after all !) "STOP" in Dutch is an imperative, just like in English.
I remember myself watching American films when I was 7 years old thinking that the Americans had copied *OUR STOP SIGNS* ! (At the time, I was still living in Belgium and didn't understand a word of English yet. Consequently I didn't know that "stop" was actually an English word too.)

There are two French translations for "to stop". The first one ("arręter") is used most, but the verb "stopper" is used too, mainly with regard to cars and traffic. In other words, "STOP" is perfect French.

In Spanish a stop sign is called "un stop". Here too, "stop" is perfect Spanish. They don't have a verb like "stopar" though, they call it "parar".

The Norwegian word for the verb "to stop" is "stoppe" and the Danish translation is "stoppe" too.

According to my dictionary 'stop' derives either from the Old English 'stoppian' or the Late Latin 'stoppare'

Ever wonder why STOP signs don't say STOP AND THEN GO, or HALT or something? STOP, to me, seems like stop and stay stopped.

Bud, as you noticed, the Europeans try to minimise the amount of text on their road signs. "STOP" is pretty universal across much of Europe but "STOP AND THEN GO" is not.

Next time that you are in Europe, why don't you hire a car in France or Germany. You will have one advantage over any British driver - the French and Germans drive on the same side of the road as the Americans. Afte you have seen a few signs in French or German, you will then appreciate the use of pictorial signs (if, unlike SteveH, you are fluent in French or German, the appreciation will not be as great).

End of minimum speed:

1) Have you ever seen one? I have but they're very rare
2) Ok, let me be less exagerative: We don't use "end of" signs any way as much as europeans - heck they use them to tell you you left towns!

Conrad: I know some German and French too.
I know enough French to realise that "arret" is not the word used on their "stop" signs - care to explain Conrad, and I mean *really* explain?

<<
1) Have you ever seen one? I have but they're very rare
>>
I have only seen them recently - I think that they were new in the 2002 TSRGD.

<<
2) Ok, let me be less exagerative: We don't use "end of" signs any way as much as europeans - heck they use them to tell you you left towns!
>>
In most continental towns, the signs with the town's name crossed out tells you that the urban speed limit (usually 50km/h) has been replaced by the rural speed limit. Likewise, a sign with the town's name is also a sped limit sign (A little like the fact that we have a 30mph speed limit if road lights are less than 183m (185m in Scotland) to each other.

re (Martin): '183 metres...'

In plain English, 200 yards!

<<I have only seen them recently - I think that they were new in the 2002 TSRGD.>>

I saw them in the highway code when I took my test - over a decade ago!

<<In plain English, 200 yards!>>

I don't have to be reminded of this one - the only 3 points on my drivers license is where I got an XS30. I was charged with "travelling at over 30mph in a residential area where street lightposts were placed less than 200yds apart". The policeman also said "200 yds" when he was telling me off.

Martin would annoy the copper by asking for the distance in metres!

er...

why is it 202 yds in Scotland?

The following phrase appears many times in the TRSGD 2002

<<
on which there is a system of street or carriageway lighting furnished by lamps lit by electricity placed not more than 183 metres apart in England and Wales or not more than 185 metres apart in Scotland
>>

sorry lets try again.

It's 200yds apart (UK measures) in England and Wales.

so...

er...

why is it 202 yds in Scotland?

Steveh: "I know enough French to realise that "arret" is not the word used on their "stop" signs - care to explain Conrad, and I mean *really* explain?"

"Arręter" and "stopper" are both French verbs meaning "to stop".

Taking into account that "STOP" is an international word, the choice between "STOP" and "ARRĘT" wasn't that difficult.

The "getting into line" thing and "feeling at home abroad", you know...

SteveH: "why is it 202 yds in Scotland?"

Because the Scots prefer round metric numbers (185 metres). ;-)

re: 'Why is it 202 yards in Scotland?'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think Conrad is right about round numbers.

I suspect that what happened was this:

Junior Bureaucrat: "Jock, 183 is a bit of an awkward number, isn't it? Not very easy to remember either, it it?"

Senior Bureaucrat (Jock): 'Och aye, the noo, you're rrreet theerrr, let's rrround it up to one hundrrred and eeeghty-five'.

P.S. 200 yards converts to 182.9 metres - if you round it to the nearest decimal point.

P.P.S. Many English statutes concerning highway verges used the familiar distance: '50 feet'. This distance has now gradually been phased out by metricating civil servants and replaced by the politically correct: '15 metres'. We have spotted a few signs on National Trust property asking people not to park 'more than 15 metres' from the roadside edge. Some activists have apparently converted these to read '50 feet' once again