Tonight the much-photographed (*) sign for queuers outside the Tower of London, which gives the queuing distance to the entrance as '250m' with the word 'entrance' translated into French, German and Spanish (each also with a smaller '250m' sign), has been amended by ARM activists.

A professionally produced black-and-white plate, using Times New Roman lettering to match the lettering on the original sign, was placed over the larger 250m sign. It says: '275 yds'.

It was erected in the presence of a journalist and a photographer from a well-known national newspaper. The attention of three passing policemen was drawn to the person placing the sign over the old one. One of them said: 'I prefer yards, actually'. A second one, a bit more politically correct, said: 'It doesn't matter to me whether they are in yards or metres'. The other one didn't comment. They all carried on their amiable stroll along the banks of the Thames on a lovely spring evening, without taking any action.

The total number of demetricated signs in the United Kingdom known to ARM has now reached 1,980

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* The controversial sign was featured in an article in the 'Daily Mail' and 'This England'

This is nothing more than vandalism.

I remeber seeing metric signs at popular tourist sites in the 1970's and the Tower of London was one of them. Those signs pre-date the 1984 Traffic Act and subserquent SI's, so they are quite legal.

Vandalism is the destruction of our Culture and Language.

As someone who has (im)migrated here I find it hard to fathom out why you espouse those sorts of view in a free country that is happy to welcome you.

Invite me to your house, mate, perhaps I can tell you how to arrange your furniture or something.

<<
As someone who has (im)migrated here I find it hard to fathom out why you espouse those sorts of view in a free country that is happy to welcome you.
>>

Who are you talking about Steve? Since I posted the last message I suspect that you are talking about me. If so, may I place it on record that I was born in Dorset of a Dutch father and an English mother. I have always travelled on a British passport. Although I have lived and worked abroad, I have been living in Hampshire for the last 25 years, and am currently working in Surrey.

Last time that we had this conversation I was working in Italy and I had to remind Steve that I was doing such as an expatriate and was ultimately bringing foreign exchange into the UK.

I thought your roots were South African?

<<
It was erected in the presence of a journalist and a photographer from a well-known national newspaper
>>

If you are getting journalists involved, clearly you don't give a damn about British culture and safety and getting your name and photo in the national newspaper is more important. You obviously love the attention you get from it.

All it is is vandalism. I'm still very worried about the UK population's average IQ not being able to understand how far 250m is.

To be honest, there is no difference between doing what you are doing Tony and getting a can of graffiti out and vandalising a perfectly good sign. I hope the Tower of London change the sign back immediately.

SteveH wrote

<<
I thought your roots were South African?
>>

Our family went out to South Africa when I was very young. My sister now lives in Twickenham, a brother in Australia and my mother returned to England two months ago (my father having died nearly two years ago).

Presumably, this event will be in the newspaper. May we know which one it is?

<<
I remember seeing metric signs at popular tourist sites in the 1970's and the Tower of London was one of them. Those signs pre-date the 1984 Traffic Act and subsequent SI's, so they are quite legal.
>>

Well said Martin.

Typical of the ARM philosophy. Enforce the rules when it suites, ignore them otherwise.

Re the passing policemen
<<
A second one, a bit more politically correct, said: 'It doesn't matter to me whether they are in yards or metres'.
>>

I see.

So dual measures are nothing more than political correctness?

Inclined to agree. Certainly isn't common sense.

Silence from Tony...

Martin: Apologies if I got your roots wrong, however would you have considered yourself "Southafricanised"? (if there is such a word!)
Here's a tricky one (think "tebbit" here):
If SA were playing England in the Rugby world cup, who would you support?

Conrad: look above -- an "apology"

Tony - well done for getting thw journos involved - that's a good tactic coz even if some people (ahem) see it as "bad publicity" then the phrase "...bad publicity....." still catches that one. One up for the British culturists!

Richard: What's the "danger" (your words) involved in having a walking distance in yards in London's popular "Tower of London"? Could someone get hanged by accident or something?
Also to know metric AND imperial shows a superior IQ, doesn't it?

BWMA: Good question, what paper WILL it be in? Also - here's another great coup that you may be able to pull off - write (or email)- in your capacity as BWMA - to "Nick Ferrari" from LBC. He's a talk-jock who's on from 9.00am till 12.00pm each week day. He's quite right-of-centre and may well jump at the idea - you (or Tony) may even get a phone spot to get you point across. Nick Ferrari hates the "liberal, guardian reading politically correct" and he's worth a listen-in. If you're not near london you can hear him on their website (lbc.co.uk) - hit "listen live".

[end of, ahem, advert]

<<
If SA were playing England in the Rugby world cup, who would you support?
>>

depends if I want to wind somebody up.


In cricket, South Afdrica, since two of the best players in recent times, Shaun Pollock and Jonty Rhodes came from my old University. In addition, I personally know a number of other South African international players from my University days.

Richard,

Two English people, like around 90% of their fellow citizens, would like to preserve their system of weights and measures in common use.

They discover that 99.9% of all road and pedestrian signs in the country are in Imperial measures - or easons of consistency - but one or two 'rogue' institutions start putting up signs in user-unfriendly (to coin Chiltern railways) metres. They also note that in almost every case, it is illegal under the laws of their country to use 'metres' on a sign.

They measure the sign which says '250m' at the Tower of London and make up a professionally produced aluminium plate painted in black cellulose paint and affixed with adhesive white reflective lettering in exactly the same font style as the original, stating '275 yds'. They then affix this neatly in place, leaving intact the three messages underneath in three foreign languages which each give the distance to the entrance as '250m'.

Three Police Constables walk by and take no notice.

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You say: "There is no difference between this and getting a can of graffiti out and vandalisng a perfectly good sign".

I have just two observations on this.

First, it is of some relief to me that, as far as I know, you do not sit in Her Majesty's Courts giving sentence in criminal cases.

Second, where may I get a 'can of graffiti' and how much do they cost, please?

An item on ARM's amendment of the Tower of London metric distance sign appears in the 'Peterborough' column of today's 'Daily Mail' (p.15).

Sad to say, the Tower bosses were not happy with our 'Imperial improvement' and have now removed our '275 yds' plate.

This may not be the last chapter in ths particular story

Good for the Tower of London. Make it as awkward as possible for ARM. Bit of a waste of time wasn't it that change you made!

Richard, are you aware of what proportion of the UK's people you are talking on behalf of?

Mind you, that's how Hitler started (very apt, especially when looking at the "tomatoes" thread!)

<<
Richard, are you aware of what proportion of the UK's people you are talking on behalf of?

Mind you, that's how Hitler started (very apt, especially when looking at the "tomatoes" thread!)
>>

Steve, whatever your views, I find it a bit far fetched to start comparing pro-metricists to Hitler. Whether its a joke or not, let's keep these sort of people out of the debate.

Yes, that is a reasonable request, although I don't think SteveH intended such a comparison.

<<
Good for the Tower of London.
>>

If they try it again, the Constable of the Tower might be instructed to detain them for a short period in the Tower.

re (Martin); "If they try it again..."

That should start: "When...

No I wasn't saying that everyone who enjoys metric is a nazi. Why would some foreigners from Europe like to see us using our traditional measurement system if this was the case?

What is close to nazi sentiment, though, is to try and forbid freedom of speech and the right to choose. Yes there is a requirement for a state (just) to protect us and be accountable and representative of us - but that is about it. Recently I've recognised that some people would like the state's powers strengthened and centralised in the EU so that a certain amount of social engineering can happen.

This is not *that* far away from what Hitler wanted.

And discussion about this should not be stifled, as we are all "grown ups" (ie EURobert left this board months ago!)

Steve,

The Magna Carta is recognised as one of the pillars of our freedom. One of its clauses was that there sould be one unit of measure in the realm.

In the late 1960's Parliament decided that the unit of measure used in the realm shoud be metric measure instead of Imperial measure. Something went wrong along the way and we now have two units of measure - metric which is used almost universally in business and industry and Imperial measure which is used by the man in the street.

AS long as we have two systems of measure, somebody is going to get ripped off (as the writers of the Magna Carta realised). The metric system is not going to disappear, so the best that the man in the street can do is to stop whinging and learn the metric system.

Couldn't agree more !

Magna Carta referred to one STANDARD of measure, meaning that units should be fixed, to protect consumers from short measure. It did not say there should be only one unit, otherwise there would be pounds but not ounces.

"so the best that the man in the street can do is to stop whinging and learn the metric system"

We already know metric - having been taught it at school - so how are you going to force me to *use* it?

Quite right, the issue here is not about measurement, but about democracy, and freedom to choose the best system. Given freedom, imperial would flouish; that's why metric has to be made compulsory.

re (martin): "Parliament decided that the units of measure used in the realm should be metric measure instead of imperial measure".


Seven out of ten for ingenuity, Martin, and ten out of ten for sheer effrontery in trying to bring in Magna Carta as a justification for metric compulsion and Imperial obliteration.

But we can't let you get away with that.

OK, the Labour government of the day in the 60s may have made an announcement that Britain would be 'going over to the metric system', though I believe that this was justified at the time only in terms of trade, not things like changing road signs, or forcing us to think of our heights and weights in metric.

But did 'Parliament' actually decide that measures in the realm should be in metric?

No! Parliament decided nothing.

You can only say that Parliament *decided* something if there was an *Act of Parliament*. And there was no Act of Parliament, either then or since, which has decided that the only measures in this land should be metric.

The only Act of Parliament that has decided anything of significance on metric and imperial measures was the wise 1985 Weights and Measures Act which basically gave traders and others the right to choose.

Metrication has been achieved by a measure of legal compulsion (fines for using Imperial scales, more fines for pricing in Imperial, more fines to come for mentioning pounds and ounces at all after 2009, etc.) - and by government diktat...'you must use metric for building plans, you must use metric in primary and secondary schools, you must us metric in official documents, you must use metric-only scales in hospitals, etc.

Moreover, *every* election manifesto which has mentioned metrication has said that it would be achieved 'voluntarily'.

All of this legal compulsion and government diktat is totally against the overwhelming balance of public opinion. Which shows just where Parliament is heading these days

In fact there was an Act of Parliament in 1967 which put the two systems on an equal level. This was a sensible start to the metrication programme following the establishment of the Metrication Board two years earlier.

The problem arose in the fact that it took a further ten years before we got close to actually finalising the programme. Ideally it would have been completed by the mid-1970s and we would have been sorted, but instead it slipped to 1979 and then Thatcher was able to rip it to shreds and bring about the present situation, post-1985 Act, whereby the issue has become far more of a 'tug of war' than it ever should have been.

"Metrication has been achieved by...government diktat...'you must use metric for building plans, you must use metric in primary and secondary schools, you must us metric in official documents, you must use metric-only scales in hospitals, etc."

The problem is that these things are required under the Directive, which under settled case law of the ECJ must be transposed with legal certainty, that is as binding provisions in law. There should therefore have been further regulations under the 1972 Act to implement such changes in administration and until there are the UK is in breach of the Directive.

"then Thatcher was able to rip it to shreds "

A refreshing reminder of how good politics were in the 80's and how stale and boring they are today.

[sigh]

The 1985 Act was a consolidation Act that confirmed and consolidated government policy that the two systems both be recognised. The eefect of this is that anyone can go metric if they want to. The 1985 Act was the last Parliament passed on the matter.

Unless, of course, we accept the new constitution invented by Lord Justice Laws that says the Parliament of 1972 lives on in 2003.

There was really no need for the 1985 Act, it was simply introduced so that Thatcher could re-inforce the fact that she intended to frustrate the metrication programme which had been progressing steadily up until 1979.

another sigh from the good ole days...


[sigh]

So, Ross, you admit that Parliament intended to stop compulsory metric conversion in 1985?

Yes.

This was never in doubt, the whole point is that Parliament also continually intends that Ministers should be able to change the law to comply with Community obligations.

You say that the 1972 Act entitles Ministers to repeal later Acts to implement EC directives?

Surely, can you not see there is something wrong there?

There may be something 'democratically' or 'morally' wrong with it, but there is nothing legally wrong with it as I have already described.

Community membership never required such a power to be introduced, but it was the choice of Parliament in 1972 to introduce it and it has never been proposed that it should be removed.

There is a very full and entertaining report of ARM's amendment of that Tower of London metric sign from '250m' to '275 yds' on pages 58 and 59 of today's 'Mail on Sunday', spread across eight columns and with four photos

The Mail seriously running short of news again!

Demonstrates my point once again Tony, you are obviously loving the publicity you're getting from your campaign. When's the book out?

A cause needs publicity.

...and fame

More like "infamous"

Infamy! Infamy! They've got it infamy!

That was just TOOOOO predictable!

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