Six distances for cycle rides on two large noticeboards at the Visitor Centre at Cannock Chase (distances ranging from 6km to 15km, with no equivalents in miles mentioned) have been converted to distances in miles by ARM supporters over the weekend.

Large metal plates, about a foot long and four inches high, were affixed over the metric distances which were cut into wooden signboards.

The lettering now reads '3 3/4 miles', '9 miles' etc. (as usual in adhesive reflective Times New Roman-style white lettering) with the word 'miles' written out in full, a new feature of some recent amendments by our supporters

<<
The lettering now reads '3 3/4 miles', '9 miles' etc. (as usual in adhesive reflective Times New Roman-style white lettering) with the word 'miles' written out in full, a new feature of some recent amendments by our supporters
>>


Apart for the normal vandalism that you have committed, you have used an illegal font. If you study the TRSGD you will see that a sans serif font is required for road signs. You are obviously a bunch of amateurs who can't even use the correect font when you vanadalise signs under the pretext that you are making them legal.

You've had nice weather for it, Tony.

The safety issue does not seem to come into it here Tony. You claim signs are changed to imperial for safety issues and because metric signs are against the law for safety. A cycle trail is hardly dangerous as bikes don't go at high speeds and are hardly likely to need to make any split second life or death decisions. For things like cycle trails, let visitor centres make their own decisions or will you next be defacing orienteering maps and car parking signs saying car park 100m. Get with the real world.

>>> "A cycle trail is hardly dangerous as bikes don't go at high speeds".

I don't agree with that. A collision between a cyclist and a pedestrian can be quite dangerous.

re: Use of Times New Roman font:

ANSWER: When on rare occaions road traffic signs have been amended by ARM supporters, we use the correct Sans Serif font; I think it's called 'Transport Helvetica'.

Times New Roman is, according to the evidence, more user-friendly and we tend to use it for pedestrian signs. Many of the illegal metric pedestrian signs we have amended have been in Times New Roman before we amended them e.g. Ely, Hastings, Portsmouth, Lambeth

re: 'Vandalism':

ANSWER: Rendering an illegal sign legal is not vandalism *per se*. The only reason I received a conviction for criminal damage was because a few drops of black paint dripped below the '600 yards' sign which was used to over-label the illegal '600 metres' sign. The sentence of an Absolute Discharge reflected the 'minimal gravity' of the offence

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re: "Get with the real world"

We have done in the following respects:

1. All other signs on British roads and footpaths are in miles and yards - and so the Cannock Chase Forestry Commission signs have simply been brought into line with the rest of the British road and footpath network

2. 86% of British people of all ages prefer miles and yards to metres and kilometres as shown in an indepedent survey carried out by ACM last April; only 8% preferred metres and kilometres, a majority of 11-1

3. The purpose of notices is to communicate with the public. Since everyone understands miles and not everyone readily understands kilometres, the signs erected by our supporter will communicate better with many of the public

4. We have no plans to interfere with orienteering maps. As I have posted elsewhere on this Bulletin Board, in sending out newsletters to their members, or when making announcements on the internet, orienteering clubs prefer Imperial measures e.g. 'the car park is 3 miles south-west of Upton-by-Downton'

5. Signs to a car park, whether for an orienteering event or for any other purpose, if placed on a road or public highway, must comply with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 and they cannot therefore legally be in metres

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re: "You had good weather..."

ANSWER: The industrial glue we use hardens really quickly when the temperature's 80oF

Tony wrote: "The industrial glue we use hardens really quickly when the temperature's 80oF"

800F ? Wow, that's a whopping 427°C !!!

Conrad,

The small 'o' means 'degrees' - but I can't lift the 'o' above the line when posting. I'll type out the word 'degree' in full next time

Tony,

If you are using windows, try the following:

Press the ALT key and simulataneously type in 0176 on teh numeric keypad andyou will get the degree symbol thus °.

As a pro-metric, I fully support the actions of Tony Bennett/ARM etc.

If the vandalism of signs goes on, the government will be forced to make metric signs officially legal.

Then they can arrest these fools.

I agree with BWMA - the weather *was* very very nice for the occasion!

Keep up the good work Tony!

P.S. There's a saab garage in Loudwater near Beaconsfield that has several signs that need correcting - if you need any more info then do ask.

re: "As a pro-metric, I fully support the actions of Tony Bennett/ARM etc."

REPLY: This is very good news. This statement of yours will be frequently quoted in our newsletters and publicity. If the Police are ever called in again on our activities, we shall notify them (and the Courts if necessary) of your support and backing.
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re: "If the vandalism of signs goes on, the government will be forced to make metric signs officially legal".

REPLY: CORRECTION: "If the lawful amendment of illegal meric signs goes on, the goverment will be forced to abandon their misconceived plans to spend over £1 billion of taxpayers' money on a wholly unnecessary and unwanted mass conversion of over 1.5 million British road signs with Imperial distances and dimensions on them".
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re: "fools"

REPLY: I'm reporting you to the moderator for verbal abuse

<<
1.5 million British road signs with Imperial distances and dimensions on them
>>


This is a total over-estimate - it assumes that there is one metric road sign for every 40 people in Britain. There are approximately 40 people in the close where I live. We have two road signs - the name of the road. The main road to which the close is attached is 1.27km in length (at least that is what was written on the road when it was last resurfaced). There are another dozen or so similar closes coming off that road. We have one road sign at either end giving distances in miles. Thus there are two sign for some 500 people. All right, I have not taken into account signs on motorways and the like, but it will certainly not push the total up to the 1.5 million signs that you are talking about.

<<REPLY: This is very good news. This statement of yours will be frequently quoted in our newsletters and publicity. If the Police are ever called in again on our activities, we shall notify them (and the Courts if necessary) of your support and backing.>>

I'm glad you appreciate my support. I hope I haven't spoilt your fun and made you realise you are wasting your time.


<<REPLY: CORRECTION: "If the lawful amendment of illegal meric signs goes on, the goverment will be forced to abandon their misconceived plans to spend over £1 billion of taxpayers' money on a wholly unnecessary and unwanted mass conversion of over 1.5 million British road signs with Imperial distances and dimensions on them".>>

I doubt very much that one small groups protest would cause the government to abandon whatever plans they have. They didn't listen to 2 million people protesting against the war in Iraq, so I can't see them taking much notice of you lot!

I agree though, it is a lot of money, which could be better spent on other things. And, yes it would be largely unwanted because the benefits would not be immediately apparent. But it has to be done sometime so why not at least start replacing signs gradually, like they did in Ireland? Every new imperial sign that goes up is a waste of taxpayers money.

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<<REPLY: I'm reporting you to the moderator for verbal abuse>>

sorry, bit harsh maybe, but haven't you got anything better to do?

martin,

your "ratio of signs per person" notion is absurd.

Just thought you'd like to know.

I know many spots of road where there are what seems thousands of signs over a 300 yd stretch. Sure those spots look "over crowded" but I reckon Tony's approximation is accurate. However counting signs could be a tad boring so I'll bow out of this one.

Tony: Pls don't report these things to the moderators - I always enjoy reading metric extremists use "names" and to be honest, and with your restraint, it makes your cause look so much more powerful.

Let them show themselves up, after all you can't blame 'em for being frustrated and confused. They've been promised a metric Britain for coming on 4 decades now - It must be like living on the M25 to them!

<<
I know many spots of road where there are what seems thousands of signs over a 300 yd stretch
>>


We do not count estate agent's signs. They are the only people that I know of who are able to cram 1000 signs into a 270m stretch (ie one sign every 270mm).

<<metric extremists>>

I don't think these actually exist. Did you ever hear of anyone trying to sell beer in litres, or vandalising changing imperial signs to metric?

Martin - look at you putting "m" in almost everything.

I'm gonna start my 30m trip hop in a moment (bless you, Mrs T!)

"<<metric extremists>>

I don't think these actually exist. Did you ever hear of anyone trying to sell beer in litres, or vandalising changing imperial signs to metric"

1) Metric is not favoured by the vast majority so why would anyone want to "correct" a sign to an unpopular notation

2) You think I am wrong to use imperial, and you also think there should be some enforcment of metric into day2day lives - THAT is extremist. If you want to say metre that's your problem but please let the rest of us say "yard" without being criticised in some form of politically correct way! And calling someone a "fool" for sticking up for the silent majority who are being taken for a ride is a tad nasty.

"Let them show themselves up, after all you can't blame 'em for being frustrated and confused. They've been promised a metric Britain for coming on 4 decades now - It must be like living on the M25 to them!"

How true.

SteveH wrote

<<
Did you ever hear of anyone trying to sell beer in litres
>>


Yes - Andrea Shultz who was stopped and the barman running the bar at the biergarten in Munchen.

<<2) You think I am wrong to use imperial, and you also think there should be some enforcment of metric into day2day lives - THAT is extremist. If you want to say metre that's your problem but please let the rest of us say "yard" without being criticised in some form of politically correct way! And calling someone a "fool" for sticking up for the silent majority who are being taken for a ride is a tad nasty.>>

I don't think you are wrong to use imperial. That is your choice, and the idea that what we say in everyday speech can be controlled is ridiculous.

What I do believe is that road signs, advertisements, shop prices etc etc should use the units of measurement that this country (admittedly the government, not the people) has chosen as its official system. That way children grow up being able to use the system they have been taught, and everyone else gets used to using the metric system. Obviously if they want to continue using imperial that is fine, but it should be up to them to convert back if they choose to.

As for the "silent majority", I don't think they really care that much. They got used to the changeover from gallons to litres and from C to F, it would be no different changing from miles to km. The only reason these surveys show a huge preference for imperial is because people think they are "sticking up for Britain" by choosing imperial. If they realised that we are going metric for ourselves not because the EU is telling us to, that would be the bulk of your support gone.

I do apologise for the "fool" comment. Promise I won't bring it down to that level again

Andy: "What I do believe is that road signs, advertisements, shop prices etc etc should use the units of measurement that this country (admittedly the government, not the people) has chosen as its official system."

I fully agree, Andy, but the problem is most imperialists don't see it that way. They forget that imperial measures were once forced on us too by the Romans. In other words, there is absolutely no difference between the Romans imperialising us or the Government metricating us. The imperial system is as British as the metric system: both are NOT.

The Government takes long-term decisions that are good for us, but people often fail to see that. They cannot see further than their noses and they mainly focus on the short-term problems and difficulties that are arising.

Mind you, I'm not saying the Government's perfect, but having a little faith wouldn't do any harm. And if you don't like what they're doing, vote for another party next time !

BTW: The only way to retain the imperial system is to leave the EU and in that case the only option we have is UKIP. But as you know, only very few Britons bother to vote UKIP since most people couldn't care less about leaving the EU or compulsory metrication.

<<The imperial system is as British as the metric system: both are NOT.>>

Exactly. The whole thing has been so twisted, that people really think that its a battle between something British against something French. It really baffles me when people stick up for Fahrenheit (a scale so bad that even hardline imperialists don't use it for cold temperatures) as part of our British culture!

The pro-imperial side are correct in that the majority supports them, but only because they don't know the full story. They rely on twisting the facts, otherwise public opinion would turn against them.

If I thought the French were trying to impose their measurement system on us for no apparent reason, I would be on the pro-imperial side!

Martin:

"Yes - Andrea Shultz who was stopped and the barman running the bar at the biergarten in Munchen"

As I see it it was a "tradition" thing to serve steins (litres?) in that particular place. Again, did anyone complain about a "litre" being made available for this particular brand? If not then why the hell should TSO's threat to turn them into criminals?

Andy - I take your point and realise that you are not as extreme as i first made out. However - I see no problem in having 2 systems side-by-side! I believe "more" is better. It makes life less sterile. Life's not meant to be "official". I'm learning Welsh for the moment - WHY? after all less than 3m people can speak it and it has no business advantage? So why should I be learning such an archaic system of language - you need to work this out.

"They got used to the changeover from gallons to litres and from C to F, it would be no different changing from miles to km"

1) F is still preferred in hotter climes - check out the temp figures in a holiday brochure (pick up sefveral, they're all free)
2) Temperature is not used as frequently as physical measures (be they liquid, weight or distance).

As for "sticking up for britain" - well I for one am sticking up for choice. It's ingrained into our language, and yes I would fight tooth and nail any EU plan to censor our weights and measures when it has nothing to do with them.

The "fool" thing wasn't *that* bad btw! :)

Conrad: I don't care a poo whether our units are Roman (they aren't actually, although I see your point in that they descended from them).

"The Government takes long-term decisions that are good for us"

You really like the state don't you? I wish you'd step back and notice how badly the govt has got involved with our lives.

"The only way to retain the imperial system is to leave the EU"

We still have a very heavy usage and reliance on imperial AND we are in the EU so I don't get this one.

Although I'd absoultely LOVE to leave the EU!!!

"very few Britons bother to vote UKIP since most people couldn't care less about leaving the EU or compulsory metrication"

1) UKIP is a very virginal party - it'd take decades for it to be "mainstream" The opposite is true of the Libs - go back a while and you'll notice that the Libs were THE main political force at one point - now look at 'em.

2) I don't agree on your second point - but then you'd expect that

<<
F is still preferred in hotter climes - check out the temp figures in a holiday brochure (pick up sefveral, they're all free)
>>

I have already done this - soem gave C, some gave F, it depended on whether they were offering "down-market" or "up-market" holidays.

Steveh: "You really like the state don't you? I wish you'd step back and notice how badly the govt has got involved with our lives."

They did a lot of bad things too, I agree. But everything considered I don't think Labour did (and *is doing*) a bad job at all.

"We still have a very heavy usage and reliance on imperial AND we are in the EU so I don't get this one."

Does 31 December 2009 ring a bell ?

"UKIP is a very virginal party - it'd take decades for it to be "mainstream" The opposite is true of the Libs - go back a while and you'll notice that the Libs were THE main political force at one point - now look at 'em."

UKIP is only about one issue: opposition against the EU, oppostition against metrication, opposition against all kinds of progressive reforms. UL (Union of Luddites) would have been a better name.

SteveH, since UKIP doesn't have a "positive" party programme (it's always going on about negative issues), they *CAN NEVER BECOME* a major political force. All they want is to turn back the clock.

Britain is a deeply conservative country, but we deserve better than UKIP.

<<The only way to retain the imperial system is to leave the EU>>

Ironically, if we had never joined the EU, I think we would now be fully metric.

As I'm sure everyone on this board knows, the decision for Britain to go metric was made well before joining the EU or whatever it was then. However, public opposition to metrication is always in some way connected to the myth of the EU taking away our culture. Had we never joined the EU, metrication would surely have gone as smoothly here as it did in Australia, New Zealand etc etc.

An interesting thought?

Australia, New Zealand, SOuth Africa etc have traditionally used British techniques in the first instance, but have been willing to adapt where they are not suitable. (For example, the early settlers built their houses south facing to catch the sun then found that they should have built them nort facing).

In the 1970's these countriesd were willingot show that they were not dependent upon Britain (Australia and New Zealand were about to loose Commonwealth preferences while South Africa was somewhat of a pariah state due to her racial policies). By adopting the metric system, these countries were demonstrating their independence of Britain. Unfortunately, Joe U. K. Public has not realised this.

"I have already done this - soem gave C, some gave F, it depended on whether they were offering "down-market" or "up-market" holidays."

I've noticed this - Carribean has more of an "F" lean wheras marbella has more of a "C" lean - maybe it's the location?

Conrad:
"But everything considered I don't think Labour did (and *is doing*) a bad job at all"

Open your eyes, man! Although clearly not such a socialist party of the past just look at the arogance, the spin etc etc. Hey - I'm not getting into a politics debate (I hope)!

"Does 31 December 2009 ring a bell ?"

Well, no - it hasn't happened yet, thus it wont ring a bell. I'll tell you more about why what you are thinking didn't happen *after* that date!

"UKIP is only about one issue: opposition against the EU, oppostition against metrication, opposition against all kinds of progressive reforms. UL (Union of Luddites) would have been a better name"

So you have read their manifesto then?
I have.
It didn't look like that.
Perhaps you got your info from that fount of all knowledge "The Mirror"?

"they *CAN NEVER BECOME* a major political force"

4th largest party in the UK, with MEPs in Europe. How major do you want it to be? Or perhaps your cutoff point is the first 3 only?

"Britain is a deeply conservative country, but we deserve better than UKIP"

Actually Britain has always traditionally being a neo-classic liberal convervative country - then along came the EU!
The more I read this sort of stuff the more likely I'll end up voting UKIP! In fact - you've done more to get me to support them than the fella that knocked on the door!

Steveh: "4th largest party in the UK, with MEPs in Europe. How major do you want it to be? Or perhaps your cutoff point is the first 3 only?"

Except for the first three, there isn't much competition is there ?

I bet the Monster Raving Loony Party are in the top ten.

I believe they are pro-imperial

Andy the answer is:

no


and


no

I believe BNP are fifth and then a load of socialist and green type parties.

There is also "the liberal party" which has nothing to do with todays libdems.

SNP? PC? UUP? SDLP? I'm sure at least some of these parties come ahead of UKIP.

As to the previous discussion there is of course a reason why the 'silent majority' are so called, and that is because their opinion is a default one, usually based on little or no consideration of the relevant issue.

I was talking nationwide - not individual countries

I think nationwide the BNP and the Greens will come ahead of UKIP, and indeed those nationalist parties.

re: "You claim signs are changed to imperial for safety issues and because metric signs are against the law for safety..."

REPLY: That is one issue, certainly, so far as signs on roads are concerned. But there are other reasons we campaign to retain miles, yards, feet and inches on our road signs - culture and heritage, familiarity, cost of conversion etc., not to mention overwhelming popular support

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re: "1.5 million British road signs with Imperial distances and dimensions on them...This is a total over-estimate..."

REPLY:

Every speed restricition sign on all roads and in every village
Every sign along every road with a distance on it - to the nearest town, to a junction, to a 'Give Way' junction, to road humps, to a road hazard, to road works etc. etc. (some signs with many distances on them)
Every cycleway sign with a distance on it
Every footpath sign in the countty with a distance on it
Every height sign in the country
Every width sign in the country

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re: "There are approximately 40 people in the close where I live".

REPLY: Probably around 15 houses, then. It would be unwise to extrapolate the number of road signs in the country with dimensions and distances on them from an urban, or even a rural, close with 15 houses in it

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re: "Tony: Pls don't report these things to the moderators - I always enjoy reading metric extremists use "names"..."

REPLY: I have taken no action beyond my comment a few days ago and never intended to do anything other than gently make a point. After all, our moderator has allowed worse than 'fool' to pass. Andy has very graciously made a concession since then and I look forward to the continuing debate where the anti-metric and pro-choice arguments usually win

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re: "Did you ever hear of anyone...vandalising changing imperial signs to metric?

REPLY: Yes. Portsmouth City, Hastings Borough and London Borough of Lambeth Councils have all done this to perfectly legal Imperial signs erected by ARM and its supporters to cover over their previously illegal metric ones

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re: Did you ever hear of anyone trying to sell beer in litres...Yes - Andrea Shultz who was stopped and the barman running the bar at the biergarten in Munchen

REPLY: And who won this year's 'Golden Rule' award from the British Weights and Measures Association, not for selling by the litre per se, but because she represents the pro-choice argument

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re: "...the idea that what we say in everyday speech can be controlled is ridiculous"

REPLY: But that was why countryside campaigner Robin Page was arrested following his speech at Frampton-on-Severn in September last year. Look on the Internet for the prison sentence handed down a few years ago to an American woamn having coffee in a cafe with her friend and who was overheard to make a derogatory reference to 'Spics' (Hispanics)

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re: "That way children grow up being able to use the system they have been taught..."

REPLY: A bit like Communist educaton in China in the 1950s onwards

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re: "They forget that imperial measures were once forced on us too by the Romans. In other words, there is absolutely no difference between the Romans imperialising us or the Government metricating us. The imperial system is as British as the metric system: both are NOT

REPLY: With respect, this does not get to the root of the preference for *customary* weights and measures, which is that British weights and measures, like all other weights and measures systems devised prior to the metric system, were based on everyday, human quantities or concepts - foot, bath, firkin, stone etc. The metric system has substituted a soulless, rational, inhuman, ivory tower system of measurement for the friendly, practical, human systems that existed before. It is a bit like imposing Esperanto on the world as the only language allowed to be spoken

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re: "The Government takes long-term decisions that are good for us, but people often fail to see that".

REPLY: Like the Poll Tax

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re: "The pro-imperial side are correct in that the majority supports them, but only because they don't know the full story"

REPLY: Funny, that. It's just what the political elite say about those who think their country should keep its own currency and keep control of its interest rates, tax-raising powers, spending powers etc. and should avoid the increasing inflation, recession, unemployment and lack of inward investment increasingly associated with the eurozone

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re: "They rely on twisting the facts, otherwise public opinion would turn against them"

REPLY: I agree. If only the eyes of the British people could be opened to the truth, that 86% who only last year preferred to keep miles and yards on road signs would vanish into nothing overnight

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re: "As I'm sure everyone on this board knows, the decision for Britain to go metric..."

REPLY: Not a decision made by the people

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re: I believe BNP are fifth and then a load of socialist and green type parties...SNP? PC? UUP? SDLP? I'm sure at least some of these parties come ahead of UKIP...I think nationwide the BNP and the Greens will come ahead of UKIP, and indeed those nationalist parties.

REPLY: UKIP has a claimed membership of around 10,000 but the true figure may be a thousand or two below that. It is around the same strength as the Scottish National Party. The Greens have been stuck at around 4,000 to 4,500 for the past few years. The BNP was stuck at around 2,300 for years but now claim their membership is nearer 4,000. The Greens and the BNP have more District Councillors than UKIP

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Tony: "UKIP has a claimed membership of around 10,000 but the true figure may be a thousand or two below that. It is around the same strength as the Scottish National Party."

Funny how they are twisting the facts. While UKIP may be the fourth political party in the UK in terms of membership, they are absolutely negligible in terms of voters. Of course when they are boasting of being the UK’s fourth party, everbody thinks that they’re talking about their number of MPs or District Councillors.
You know what honest people call this phenomenon ? Deliberately misleading advertising.

Steveh: "The more I read this sort of stuff the more likely I'll end up voting UKIP! In fact - you've done more to get me to support them than the fella that knocked on the door!"

How come you’re such a frequent poster on the UKIP’s message boards ?

"How come you’re such a frequent poster on the UKIP’s message boards ?"

Because their board will always attract the pro-EU extremist and - as you know - I like taking extremists on "head on" (see the posts by "anonymous" to see what I relish, oh and someone called euric too[wink wink]).

I suggest more people, on both sides, post at the UKIP site!

P.S. I voted UKIP once and that was at the MEP elections. In *that particular* election voting for UKIP is akin to putting the cat amongst the pigeons!!

Oh, and PR helped them too!

If you were completely anti EU Steve, you would abstain from the European elections as a protest.

Yes Richard, I've never quite understood why the leader of the UKIP is an MEP.

re:

(1) "If you were completely anti EU Steve, you would abstain from the European elections as a protest".

(2) "Yes, Richard, I've never quite understood why the leader of the UKIP is an MEP"


REPLY: Ask yourselves why hunger striker Bobby Sands and current leader of IRA/Sinn Fein Gerry Adams have stood for election in the British Parliament. Or why Quebec separatists stand for election to the Canadian Parliament, etc.

I was thinking along similar lines - the 80 or so Irish home-rulers.

Yes I think that democracy is important to "remove" as well - if you get my drift.

Eg. Voting an anti_EU party into the EP is planting people who, using the democratic process, want to provide a voice that says we want to get out of here.

Of course I think the EU wants to ban non-EU loving parties from the E.P. - that's one way of silencing some critics. Lets call it "selective democracy"

Yes, BTW, I am anti-EU.
Tremendously so.
Viciously so.

I'm also an avid pro-european, a fact that hardline EU-lovers hate and cannot understand!

Of course those in favour of the EU on this board are the nicer kind aren't they? You can understand my point can't you???

(another "cat", me thinks!)

<<
REPLY: Ask yourselves why hunger striker Bobby Sands and current leader of IRA/Sinn Fein Gerry Adams have stood for election in the British Parliament. Or why Quebec separatists stand for election to the Canadian Parliament, etc.
>>

I recognise that it is not unique. However in the case of Gerry Adams he doesn't take up his seat.

Perhaps you could explain the UKIP case Tony.

BTW I don't ask facetiously, I am curious.