Within a mile or two of the level crossing at Shalford Station, Cambridgeshire, on the London Liverpool Street to Cambridge Line, are a series of signs - about a dozen - which state:

"Maximum height [x] yds ahead: 15 ft (4.6m)".

To ARM's knowledge, these are the only road signs anywhere in the United Kingdom which use the notation 'ft'.

The signs now just say:

"Maximum height [x] yds ahead: 15 ft".

A number of illegal height-only signs in the surrounding area have been rendered legal

Removing or modifying safety signs is a serious matter.

Under the TSRGD 2002 it is perfectly legal to have height warnings in both feet and meters so if you have any respect for safety or for the law LEAVE THESE SIGNS ALONE.

On rereading the original posting, may I draw rto attention that the signs probably give warning of a safe height under high voltage electrical cables that are used to power the East Coast railways.

Are you really trying to give somebody a 15,000 Volt shock. If so, may you rot in Hell, if not, then re-instate the signs as they were.

I would like to make this point. If the ARM are pro choice and safety concious, what is wrong with a height sign in metres and feet? I quote Steve as saying he is not anti-metric but pro choice - I presume this is what Tony also claims he is.

Clearly though, Tony isn't pro-choice and is just being bloody minded when changing dual signs into imperial signs to make his own political point. Tony my point to you is simple - LEAVE DUAL METRIC/IMPERIAL SIGNS ALONE. You are doing more harm than good.

The hypocrasy of these "pro-choice" people is laughable

When greengrocers are told they must use kilos, it is a violation of human rights. They should be allowed to choose what measures they use.

But when it is the other way round and someone decides metric is more appropriate, they should be denied that choice!

ARM's defence is that they are upholding the law, and yet here they are clearly not as no defence is available to them.

Tony seems to be more of a militant pro-imperialist than either SteveH or BWMA. BWMA have a new policy of freedom of choice after they realised that imperial would no longer have the protection of a single or even primary measurement system. Some are clearly unable to accept this.

There is a presumtion here that ARM removed the metric bit - perhaps it was the council?

Although I would understand an uncomfortable "thin end of the wedge" feeling regarding supplementary indicators for height and width in metric, I have to say that for these particular signs, where there can be no ambiguity, both could be used.

With speed limits you could not have both since you'd either have to have a colour scheme for each system, or have one over the other (eg 30/50). This would have safety implications. However for, say, a bridge you could have a sign with 2.1m and a SEPERATE sign saying 7"-0' and for vehicles that could have a size issue (and lets face it there's not many of those) I think you'd naturally focus on the apropriate sign.

I'm not sure I could agree with ARM removing a bracketed metric indication in this circumstance though, sorry.

Tony Bennet (thinking by himself):
"Pro-choice ? Hm... what does that mean ? ... Oh, now I remember, it's the same as PRO-IMPERIAL and ANTI-METRIC ! How could I forget ? People should be given the choice to opt for imperial OR imperial."

lest he be judged before ye (er....)

what I'm trying to say is, shall we look at the whole picture?

or something

I call upon ARM to:

(1) State clearly whether the removal of the metric supplementary indication (in he above case) was by ARM or local authority.

(2) ARM acknowledge that in some circumstances a metric sign indictation (main or secondary) might be in the best interests of safety.

WARNING

Do not try to subvert or dodge these questions with pseudo legal or technical argument. It will only damage ARM credibility.

FACT:

99% of railway safe height signs in the United Kingdom are in *feet and inches only*. They usually read "Maximum Safe Height", followed by the height in feet and inches, and are accompanied by a lightning sign.

Signs like these, which are only in feet and inches, cause *no safety hazard*, despite some of the excitable recent postings under this thread.

Compare the unfortunate experience of Adam Doggett, whose jeep got stuck below a low bridge which was unfortunately illegally signed only as '1.4m' [today the only sign there reads 4' 7"].

REMINDER: The Truckers' Road Atlas, used by many continental lorry drivers, gives the height of all low bridges on motorways, 'A' and 'B' roads in the U.K.
in *feet and inches only*

SECOND REMINDER: The Secretary of State for Transport has conceded in writing that dual metric and Imperial signs are 'confusing'

Tony Bennett wrote

<<
FACT:

99% of railway safe height signs in the United Kingdom are in *feet and inches only*. They usually read "Maximum Safe Height", followed by the height in feet and inches, and are accompanied by a lightning sign.
>>

He has conveniently forgotten the following:

FACT:

Heights in metric units were first permitted by the TSRGD 2002 which came into force on 31-Jan-2003. It is hardly surprising therefore that the use of metric units in not yet widespread. Most authorities will wait until the existing signs need replacing before actually replacing them.

<<<damage ARM credibility.>>>

Do they have any?

<<
<<<damage ARM credibility.>>>

Do they have any?
>>

Point Taken Andy.

FACT:

ARM were responsible for the removal of metric indication on high voltage warning sign.

FACT:

ARM are dangerous.

FACT:

ARM supporters are misguided.

OPINION:
May they rot in hell.

I still support ARM.
Thanks for reminding me that I'm misguided.

BTW - What's hell like?

BTW Meter man - what started of as a good challenge to ARM in the intersts of excellent lively debate, from yourself, ended once again in personal insult.

Do you have a short temper or something (ask someone close to you).

You disappoint me (us?) again.

<<
Most authorities will wait until the existing signs need replacing before actually replacing them.
>>

Road signs are durable products... they don't wear out every few years and need replacing. If the idea is to change the units on the signs as they wear out, it will probably take several decades, and may pose a safety issue somewhere in between. Truck drivers will have to be familiar with their height in both "old sign" units and "new sign" units. Of course, this could be remedied by having both units on the new signs, but then people will probably read the old units and ignore the new ones. After all the signs are dual units, they can start replacing them with metric-only as they wear out, which would be another several decades.
This is clearly not workable. The easiest way out is to keep everything the way it siis.

Maybe, by the time all the signs on the roads have worn out, scientists will have decided on another system of units to replace metric. Or perhaps, we will come across aliens who all use one system, and we wouldn't want to be the only planet in the solar system using a system different from everyone else now would we?

Bud,

Road signs (at least in the UK) are not as durable as you suggest. Many signs look very tired after ten years.

You also suggested that truck drivers would look at the Imperial dimesnions and ignore the metric dimensions. UK law reuqires all vehicles that are over 3m high to have a notice in the drivers cab to remind the driver of the vehicle's height. This notice must be in feet and inches (IMHO a breach of EU reguilations), but can also be in metric units.

The easy way around the changeover problem is to require that this notice be in both metric and Imperial units while the signs are changed. The changeover of signs can be as fast or as slowas the Governement dictates - remeber that Canada changed all here mph signs tokm/h over one Labor Day weekend.

Will the metre be replaced by some other units. I do not believe this to be likely - at any rate during your on my lifetime.

BTW Bud, before you reply to my previous posting, please visit

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/

so that you can see what the UK road signs look like. If you are interested, you could also visit

http://www.minvenw.nl/cend/dco/home/data/international/gb/verkeersb_engels.pdf

where you can see the Dutch road signs. Youwill see many similarities. (BTW, the Dutch site is written in English).

Martin - I disagree with you mention of sign durability

Especially rhe plastic "3D" type with the lamp within - I've noticed some off these that are still around since I was a kid.

Pointless discussion anyway, UK roads will never "go metric" - there is simply 100% no need

SteveH wrote

<<
Especially rhe plastic "3D" type with the lamp within - I've noticed some off these that are still around since I was a kid.
>>

Are you sure that they weren't properly maintianed by the council who do their work during the hours of daylight when you and I are in the office?

Next time that you are on a road that you know to be less than ten years old look at the signs and you will be surprised how worn they get.

I hear what you are saying but what I am saying is that there are different types, and one particular type last a very long time.
The one's I refer to "fade" if they are sun facing but that's about it.

<<<Pointless discussion anyway, UK roads will never "go metric" - there is simply 100% no need>>>

You don't REALLY believe that do you?

It WILL happen one day..

LOL !

I fully appreciate the attachment some people feel towards traditional weights and measures and the reasons why they are sad to see them replaced.

However, some of you people (SteveH: "Britains roads will never be metric") seem to be refusing to believe that metrication is happening in Britain (admittedly at an excruciatingly slow pace) Imperial measures are dying out gradually - as each one ceases to be used officially (eg lbs/oz after 2010) they will quickly be forgotten.

Complete metrication is going to happen sooner or later whether we like it or not, so why bury your heads in the sand and pretend that imperial measures might have a future in the modern world?

This is in fact the true realism that SteveH seems to support. We should not claim 'Britain is metric' because it clearly is not. At the same time, we should realise that it will happen and is happening now.

>>However, some of you people (SteveH: "Britains roads will never be metric") seem to be refusing to believe that metrication is happening in Britain<<

I was using the term "never" in the same vein as "there will never be another Hitler". It's my opinion but I may well be wrong.

Maybe some of you should look up the word "wrong"!

Like the way imperial measures seemed to have made a bit of a resurgence since the EU started meddling?

I wonder who really is "wrong"!

Don't take MY word for it - go for a 15 minute walk with your ears and eyes open.

[that should do it!]

P.S. look at this (vis -a- vis measures "dieing out"):

The sixties
1972
The seventies
1985
The eighties
The nineties
2000
2010

Some of you are going to get old as very disillusioned human beings.

I'm sure I'm not being too cryptic here!

"Don't take MY word for it - go for a 15 minute walk with your ears and eyes open"

-----------------------------------

I think you need to do the same, but without blanking out certain words from your mind!

I hear people talking imperial every day, but I also hear people using metric

It seems that you hear only what you want to hear. Wasn't it you who said that everyone you know used Fahrenheit (in the summer)?! If I think of all the people I know young and old (lets say its about 100)there are no more than a handful I can think of that might possibly give a temperature in Fahrenhiet.

"I think you need to do the same, but without blanking out certain words from your mind!"

Oh believe me, whenever I hear someone use a metric term I hear it. It tends to stick out. Last time it was a German girl who was telling me about a bloke who could p*** 3 metres.

"I hear people talking imperial every day, but I also hear people using metric"

I tend to find that most who talk metric are either "visitors" or "forced to" (eg salespeople who are told to talk in away that goes against their nature and their customers').


"It seems that you hear only what you want to hear. "

Let me put it a different way - I bet you hear imperial an awful lot, but you don't "pick it up" so to speak, it's just used - absorbed - understood, all without you even noticing. When you hear someone say "metre" you (and I also) notice it straight away.

"Wasn't it you who said that everyone you know used Fahrenheit (in the summer)?!"

Most, that being 18 to late 30's. I asked an 18 yr old girlfriend of my mate and she reckons she's equally au fait with both.


I think you find that imperial is more prevalent than you realise - only you don't even notice. It's been around since birth and is as subliminally assumed in the same way our traffic lights go "red-amber" at the same time.

Take a look at road signs, wander around a small butchers or a big Tesco. Pick up some details on cars (as I have recently). Pick up some brochures on hot destinations, listen to people speaking, go to a pub and LISTEN rather than READ, see how the classifieds are written in your local paper, listen to the news about anything to do with anything dropping a distance or going fast, look at the "To let" signs.

Actually the "to let" one is a good example of subliminally accepting imperial. Right now I bet you think that at least half show sq mtrs? Ok - be honest with me - next time you go for a drive count up how many of those signs you see (and probably subliminaly didnt notice) and see how many show metric. Include hectare/acre signs too if you wish - its up to you.

Try it - you'll be in for a surprise.

Oh, and please resist the temptation to list to me where metric has "taken over" in a walk about town - I was not referring to where the state has interfered, I was talking about people.

re: "The easy way around the changeover problem is to require that this notice be in both metric and Imperial units while the signs are changed"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah yes! The 'changeover problem'. Well, it's certainly a problem. But could the very *cause* of the problem be, er, the changeover. If yes, then we have the answer. The answer to the 'changeover problem' is, er, not to change over.

100% of British road users are familiar with Imperial heights, as evidenced by the Truckers' Atlas.

Dual signs are more expensive, are confusing, and more difficult to read as they have to be in smaller lettering to get lots of information on one sign (or use two separate signs which doubles the cost).

The simplest, clearest, least confusing, least expensive and most popular option is to leave all the signs in Imperial only - just like all the distance signs are at present

"100% of British road users are familiar with Imperial heights"

Outrageous claim.

The point you seem to be missing when you suggest that there is no reason to EVER change road signs to metric, is that the proportion of people understanding metric is increasing all the time, while the proportion understanding imperial is decreasing.

We can argue about how quickly this is happening, but this is a FACT - I challenge anyone to dispute it!

".... is that the proportion of people understanding metric is increasing all the time, while the proportion understanding imperial is decreasing. "

I agree with the first part, but the second part is purely and 100% nonsense.

Sometimes I really ask myself if some of you are posting from countries outside the UK (/US) since you tend to show the signs of people who have never set foot here.

I'm trying to work out whether you are mildly annoying or mildly amusing - its a difficult task!

well I have decided that you are definately mildly amusing rather than mildly annoying

How you can say that understanding of imperial is not diminishing, I find most amusing! I even carefully worded my argument to make clear that I didn't think it was happening quickly! But it seems you need further explanation:

What proportion of our generation know how many yards in a mile, how many pounds in a stone or boiling point in Fahrenheit? 10% maybe? The real understanding of the measurements has already been lost.

Imperial measures are gradually being phased out. Yes, very slowly, but it is still happening! Do people today still think of petrol prices in litres? Do you really think people will still think in lbs/oz after 2010 when they can no longer see those units anywhere?

I never said knowledge of ALL imperial units is disappearing NOW, but clearly as metric gradually replaces imperial in shops & in the media etc etc, understanding of the metric units will increase and understanding of the imperial units will decrease!

I really find it hard to see how you cannot accept this logic!

Andy wrote

<<
What proportion of our generation know how many yards in a mile, how many pounds in a stone or boiling point in Fahrenheit? 10% maybe? The real understanding of the measurements has already been lost.
>>

In my experience, the people who are most au faux with the various conversions that Andy described are who both regularly work with a variety of measurements and who also favour the metric system.

re: "Imperial measures are dying out gradually".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Er, no. Attempts, partially successful, are being made to kill them off.

If Imperial weights and measures cease to be used, and there is an inquest, the verdict will definitely be 'Murder' and not 'Death by Natural Causes'

re: "'100% of British road users are familiar with Imperial heights' - Outrageous claim".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In an independent survey conducted this year in the United Kingdom, 98% of those questioned said they were familiar with and understood Imperial heights.

The proportion for understanding metric heights was 29%.

That means that there are about 35 to 36 times as many people in the United Kingdom who do not understand metric heights as against those who do not understand Imperial heights and dimensions.

The Department for Transport accepts that all road users understand Imperial dimensions and distances because they send out people on roads which are required always to be signed in Imperial.

'Outrageous claim'?

I don't think so

"In an independent survey conducted this year in the United Kingdom, 98% of those questioned said they were familiar with and understood Imperial heights."

So 98%, not 100%. The outrageousness of the claim is that you are saying 'everyone understands imperial'. The number of subjects on which we can accurately claim 'everyone...' anything is very small indeed.

As I believe Andy has said in the past, knowledge of what feet and inches mean outside the range of human height is not widely understood, and it is certainly far from universal, which is what you were, indeed, outrageously claiming.

<<
The easy way around the changeover problem is to require that this notice be in both metric and Imperial units while the signs are changed.
>>

An easier way would be to forget the changeover.


BTW, on http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/signs06.shtml, on the second sign (Nottingham), is it a 12 or a 1/2? If it's a 1/2, why do they not include the fraction bar? So much for readability. And I'm assuming it's miles, (it can't be either 1/2 meter or 12 meters) so therefore, I can come to the conclusion that the British government, (or at least the highway code authors) still endorse the use of "m" for miles. Interesting discovery, especially since this page was updated in 2001.

Yes we use "m" for miles.
We also leave out the fraction bar and have the upper number "hover" over a smaller lower number.

When driving on US roads I always have to think twice when reading the fractions. At first glance it looks like "exit 1 or 2 miles" when the bar is there - if you get my drift. It's what you are used to - you'd easily adapt if you drove over here (like I do when I drive "over there").

To answer other questions:

"What proportion of our generation know how many yards in a mile, how many pounds in a stone or boiling point in Fahrenheit? 10% maybe?"

You misunderstand the use of imperial. You are not meant to use it in a "metric fashion". Who cares that there are 1760 yds in a mile? We would never use it that way in the UK. I think you will find, though, taht most will know the # of lb in a st! Just listen to any teenage girl!

"The real understanding of the measurements has already been lost."

Apart from the school room , it was never there in the first place.

"Imperial measures are gradually being phased out. Yes, very slowly, but it is still happening!"

Indeed the league, bushel, hogshead etc have been evolved out - you are correct for once.

"Do people today still think of petrol prices in litres?"

Yes, that is how it's advertised. They also recognise price/gallon as a more meaningful term. Also you buy a car on its mpg (I can predict what response that will generate!)

"Do you really think people will still think in lbs/oz after 2010 when they can no longer see those units anywhere?"

Probably yes, tell me - can you see into the future? What government will be in power? Will we still be in the EU? Will all laws planned today come to fruition 100%? Who will be prime minister? Will the world exist? Will there be a repeal of certain laws?

I need you to tell me so that I can pop down the bookies.

"I never said knowledge of ALL imperial units is disappearing NOW, but clearly as metric gradually replaces imperial in shops & in the media etc etc, understanding of the metric units will increase and understanding of the imperial units will decrease!"

One word that you might want to use: "inevitable" (grin)

"I really find it hard to see how you cannot accept this logic!"

I find it hard that you cannot pick up the start staring obvious from, for example, a strole along a busy British street.
If it weren't there I'd give up! Believe me!

"As I believe Andy has said in the past, knowledge of what feet and inches mean outside the range of human height is not widely understood, and it is certainly far from universal, which is what you were, indeed, outrageously claiming."

This REALLY make me think that you are not a British Subject - honestly.

Tell you what - listen to Radio1 (target age 12 to 21). Wait for the news to come on (its called news-beat) and............


*L*I*S*T*E*N*!

Cool, the second diagram down, from:

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/signs06.shtml

is the junction just up the road from me!

<<<You misunderstand the use of imperial. You are not meant to use it in a "metric fashion". Who cares that there are 1760 yds in a mile? We would never use it that way in the UK.
Apart from the school room , it was never there in the first place.>>>

I think you'll find that before metric was introduced, people did know how to break down miles into yards etc. I'm not saying everyone needs to do this in everyday life, but how else would you do any sort of calculation (even basic ones)?

<<<"Do people today still think of petrol prices in litres?"
Yes, that is how it's advertised.>>>

obviously I meant "do people still think of petrol prices in gallons"

<<<They also recognise price/gallon as a more meaningful term. Also you buy a car on its mpg (I can predict what response that will generate!)
>>>

How is the price per gallon a more meaningful term??!! No-one has bought a gallon of petrol in this country for about 20 years!!! With the increase in price over that time, giving price per gallon now only has any relevance as a sensationalised tabloid headline. Surely you can see that?

<<<One word that you might want to use: "inevitable" (grin)>>>

oh yes (grin)

"How is the price per gallon a more meaningful term??!! No-one has bought a gallon of petrol in this country for about 20 years!!! With the increase in price over that time, giving price per gallon now only has any relevance as a sensationalised tabloid headline. Surely you can see that?"

I hate to ask this, do you drive a car?

<<<I hate to ask this, do you drive a car?>>>

yes, and I buy petrol in litres like everyone else

and yes, like everyone else I would compare cars fuel economy using mpg, so I guess if I ever felt the need to calculate the cost of running my car I would need the price of petrol per gallon

I really can't think of another reason why I would ever need to see the price of petrol in gallons

"It's what you are used to - you'd easily adapt if you drove over here (like I do when I drive "over there")."

Really?

"You misunderstand the use of imperial. You are not meant to use it in a "metric fashion". Who cares that there are 1760 yds in a mile? We would never use it that way in the UK."

The fact is that details like this were known in the past and now they are not.

"This REALLY make me think that you are not a British Subject - honestly."

I'm not: see British Nationality Act 1981.

1: "It's what you are used to - you'd easily adapt if you drove over here (like I do when I drive "over there")."

2: "Really?"

One little "forward slash" is hardly a huge cultural switchover

1: "You misunderstand the use of imperial. You are not meant to use it in a "metric fashion". Who cares that there are 1760 yds in a mile? We would never use it that way in the UK."

2: "The fact is that details like this were known in the past and now they are not."

I only live in the present - I'll leave it to (gotta be sensitive here) "older" posters here to register an opinion on this. All I can say is that I can believe that we've always said "one and a half miles", I cannot believe that in the past someone might have said "one mile, 880yds". I've always seen imperial as *predominantly* fractional. The only two exceptions being height and weight where a hybrid format has *evolved*. The evolutionary properties of imperial are one of my bigget reasons for liking it. With metric I like it's rigidness and numeracy and as such see it a perfect for micro-calculations and science.


1: "This REALLY make me think that you are not a British Subject - honestly."

2: "I'm not: see British Nationality Act 1981."

You may be practising pedantary here

I am under the assumption that subjects still exist.

Bud wrote

<<
I can come to the conclusion that the British government, (or at least the highway code authors) still endorse the use of "m" for miles. Interesting discovery, especially since this page was updated in 2001.
>>

Bud you are correct, but the Department of Transport are breaking UK law by doing so. The 1995 Weights and Measures order make the EU directoive 80/181/EEC part of UK law. That directive states that the symbol "m" represents "metres" and that "miles" (which can only be used in certain specified conditions for any legal, public administration, public health of economic use) must always be spelt out in full.

To date nobody has actually challenged the UK Government on this matter but it is only a matter of time before a lorry driver, who risks losing his licence if found guilty will challenge the Governement on a similar area of flagrantdisregard of EU law, namely the use of the single and double quote for feet and inches rather than the prescribed symbols of "ft" and "in" respsctively.

SteveH wrote

<<
With metric I like it's rigidness and numeracy and as such see it a perfect for micro-calculations and science.
>>

Where does science (and engineering) end and "ordinary life" [my words] begin? Is is right to divorce the two? Something that is science for one person is everyday life for another. For example, a few months ago I mentioned that I often count the squares in a road atlas to estimate the distance between two towns. To me, who has both a science and an engineering degree nothing could be more natural. Frederick R on the other hand (who is a student at a univerity that has a very small science department and no engineering department) accused my of being "sad".

Andy wrote

<<
and yes, like everyone else I would compare cars fuel economy using mpg, so I guess if I ever felt the need to calculate the cost of running my car I would need the price of petrol per gallon
>>

Andy, if you are interested in comparing the cost of runing your car, try calculati gfuel consumption in litres/100km.

Assume that you get 7 litres/100km in your car. Assume that petrol cost £0.77/litre. This gives the cost of petrol as £5.63/100 km of 5.63p/km. (0.77 x 7 = 5.63). Or is this too simple?

BTW, the magic between converting between mpg and litres/100km is to remember that as one figure goes up. the othe rgoes down. The crossover point is 16.79mpg = 16.7litres/100km. Thereafter if you half one figure, you double the other. Thus 8.39mpg = 33.78 litres/100km and 33.78mpg = 8.39 litres/100km.

Quite simple.

<<
Where does science (and engineering) end and "ordinary life" [my words] begin?
>>

Agreed, the dividing line is not exact. So something that is everyday life to one person may be science to another. And some borderline things may be done in metric by one person and imperial by another.

But that is no reason to think that science and everyday life are one and the same, and lends no credibility to the argument to metricate everyday life.

<<<Andy, if you are interested in comparing the cost of runing your car, try calculati gfuel consumption in litres/100km.>>>

Yes, if I was calculating it for myself I would use L/100km, but if communication with others (in Britain)was involved I would be forced to use mpg.

I always use metric in conversation where the units are understood, i.e cm/metres for distance, Kg for weight etc, but I will refer to distances in Britain using miles since that is what we use, like it or not. And if someone asks me my height I would give it in ft/in.

All the pro-imperial people keep going on about choice, but it doesn't work like that! Obviously I would rather use measurements that I understand better, but like the rest of the under 30 generation we don't actually have the choice to use the measurements we were taught, and because we find ourselves forced to use some imperial measurements it is assumed that we prefer them!

<<To date nobody has actually challenged the UK Government on this matter>>

Why on earth would someone complain about something we are familiar with.
Perhaps you should just get used to it?

<< but it is only a matter of time before a lorry driver, who risks losing his licence if found guilty will challenge the Governement on a similar area of flagrantdisregard of EU law>>

I thought you lot like to make a point out of these things not being EU laws, prefering to point at us "rabid" eurosceptics for making that up? - thanks for the insight!

<<namely the use of the single and double quote for feet and inches rather than the prescribed symbols of "ft" and "in" respsctively>>

Oh grow up and get used to it.
You are ultimately free to make the change yourself - MOVE TO EUROPE.


"Where does science (and engineering) end and "ordinary life" [my words] begin?"

That is a question that we need not worry about - think "natural". Nice insight.

"Assume that you get 7 litres/100km in your car. Assume that petrol cost £0.77/litre. This gives the cost of petrol as £5.63/100 km of 5.63p/km. (0.77 x 7 = 5.63). Or is this too simple?"

Assume your car does 35mpg. mpy the cost of a gallon with 35 and that is how much you'll spend to go that far. Mind blowing.

"Yes, if I was calculating it for myself I would use L/100km"

Guess what? We don't believe you!

"but if communication with others (in Britain)was involved I would be forced to use mpg."

Forced eh? are you legally compelled?
Now have a chat with Steve Thoburn for a dose of reality.


"but I will refer to distances in Britain using miles since that is what we use, like it or not"

Are you honestly saying that you can "dislike" a mile?
Do you realise how sad that sounds?

Oooh! Nasty millimetre! Filthy millimetre! How I hate you so!

<<<Are you honestly saying that you can "dislike" a mile?
Do you realise how sad that sounds?>>>

I didn't say I dislike miles! And yes, I realise how sad that would be.

All I said is I would prefer to use kilometres.

The point I was trying to make in my last post, was that although I favour metric, I am not taking this to the extreme - I will happily use imperial when necessary.

This is where the two sides differ. I bet you won't ask for fruit and veg in metric even when it is priced that way.

At the end of the day if it really matters that much to you what weights and measurements we use, then I think that is very sad.

"Perhaps you should just get used to it?
Oh grow up and get used to it."

Again, good advice!

"You are ultimately free to make the change yourself - MOVE TO EUROPE."

There it is again.

"Yes, if I was calculating it for myself I would use L/100km"

"Guess what? We don't believe you!"

Why not? Is it so hard for you to believe that people who are not you do in fact make use of the metric system?

"but if communication with others (in Britain)was involved I would be forced to use mpg."

"Forced eh?"

It is true that if people do not understand the use of a measurement then we are forced to use one that they do understand.

"Are you honestly saying that you can "dislike" a mile? Do you realise how sad that sounds? Oooh! Nasty millimetre! Filthy millimetre! How I hate you so!"

It is a fact that many people do dislike metric units, not least BWMA itself. The reason for the '95%' or whatever is partly that we don't want to use some 'foreign system' (like imperial for example) and therefore dislike the units involved. This is partly the motivation of ARM, which removes metric references because they are 'disliked'.

It is unfair to say that certain people should have the freedom of choice to dislike metric units, but others cannot possibly dislike something which the majority of people like. Such an opinion should be respected and should not be dismissed, once again, as 'sad'. As freedom of choice is the new, post-1995 argument of BWMA, maybe it should be applied to all.

Freedom of choice as long as that choice is imperial!

"This is where the two sides differ. I bet you won't ask for fruit and veg in metric even when it is priced that way."

My tesco shows prominance for imperial - that suits me. However I did buy a 2 litre bottle of lemonade the other day. Maybe I should do a "martin" (look at "fuel economy stuff" above) and covert it into pints before I pick it up!

>>>>"Guess what? We don't believe you!"

Why not? Is it so hard for you to believe that people who are not you do in fact make use of the metric system?
<<<<<

Jump in your car and check out the little dial in the middle of your speedo. Come back and tell me what you found out.

"It is a fact that many people do dislike metric units, not least BWMA itself. The reason for the '95%' or whatever is partly that we don't want to use some 'foreign system' (like imperial for example) and therefore dislike the units involved. This is partly the motivation of ARM, which removes metric references because they are 'disliked'."

I am really HOPING I can clear something up here in one sentence:
WE DO NOT DISLIKE THE METRIC SYSTEM. THE "95%" THING YOU TALK ABOUT IS A "PREFEREMCE" THING. IT DOES NOT MEAN WE (THE UK) DISLIKE METRIC UNITS. WHAT WE (THE UK) DISLIKE IS A STATE INTERFEREING IN OUR LIVES AND TELLING US THAT WE ARE WRONG FOR THINKING THE WAY WE DO. THINKING AND USING IMPERIAL HARMS NO-ONE (EVEN SMALL CHILDREN AND PUPPIES). DO YOU GET THE MESSAGE NOW? MY CAR HAS A 2.3 LITRE ENGINE - I REALLY HAVE NO PROBLEM THINKING AND SAYING THIS. TRY TO GET USED TO YOUNG KIDS MEASURING THEMSELVES IN FT/IN AND ST/LB AND *MOVE ON*. THIS "ANTI METRIC/ METRIC HATER" ARGUMENT IS DEAD - DO NOT ADMINISTER RESUSITAION - LET IT REST IN PIECE - IT IS GONE NOW - GONE TO A BETTER PLACE - THE DUSTBIN IN THE SKY

[phew]

"Freedom of choice as long as that choice is imperial!"

With respect, have a word with Steve Thoburn about that. Please get a dose of reality. For some reason the odds are against the 95% when it comes to that "freedom of choice" thing.

I realise that was not one sentence.

Sorry!

I also realise the appalling number of spelling mistakes.

Indeed I was on the pop last night

<<
Freedom of choice as long as that choice is imperial!
>>

It's freedom of choice for the people as a whole, not for each individual. (in order to prevent chaos)
If the majority choose imperial, the people have chosen imperial and imperial it is. (This is the function of government.)
Freedom of choice doesn't mean that every person has every right to do whatever he/she wants.

<<<Jump in your car and check out the little dial in the middle of your speedo. Come back and tell me what you found out.>>>

Yes its in miles. The logical measurement for fuel consumption would be miles per litre. mpg and L/100km are equally inappropriate since they both only use one relevant unit for the UK

<<<WE DO NOT DISLIKE THE METRIC SYSTEM. THE "95%" THING YOU TALK ABOUT IS A "PREFEREMCE" THING. IT DOES NOT MEAN WE (THE UK) DISLIKE METRIC UNITS. WHAT WE (THE UK) DISLIKE IS A STATE INTERFEREING IN OUR LIVES AND TELLING US THAT WE ARE WRONG FOR THINKING THE WAY WE DO.>>>

OK, I accept your argument. Successive governments are to blame for not telling the British people why it is in OUR OWN interests to go metric, and letting the issue get blown out of all proportion by the tabloids. Now we are left with the unfortunate situation where the government either lets us carry on using a confusing mixture of systems, or lays down the law and enforces complete metrication.

In my opinion the latter is now the only sensible option, although it could so easily have been avoided.

"Now we are left with the unfortunate situation where the government either lets us carry on using a confusing mixture of systems"

1) The government is not there to "let us carry on" with anything - you misunderstand the relation between the Crown, her government and it's people.

2) If you really think about it, British people really are not going about there daily lives in confusion. Since when have you walked down a british street only to find people scratching their heads due to the confusing lives they lead.
On the contrary I was listening to someone on the radio the other day who mixed cm with feet and with inches in descibing things. To the listener it was actually quite good because the foot was apt for one thing he was describing while the cm was just right for something else (same with inch). Whenever someone says "metre" in describing something I always imagine it to be a little longer that a yard.