A chap called 'Daniel' has recently posted this on the USMA website. He appears to be unhappy at the rapidly disappearing metric signs in the U.K.:

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"The people of ARM have claimed they have amended 3000 illegal metric signs to date. That is 3000 signs and possibly more that would still be there if the law allowed metric signs. ARM and its supporters would be behind bars if they tampered with legal signs.

As you see, even with the law against metric, there is still a drive to use metric. Even if the government of the UK never changed the signs as other nations did, the momentum of changing a few would grow until at one point they would outnumber the Imperial signs.

I'm just amazed that the metric supporters in the UK don't see ARM as a serious threat and do something about them".

Dan

Dan (if you're there)

Not only do we not see them as a threat, we see them as helping our cause.

Think about it. The more their campaign goes on, the more councils and other organisations are going to get fed up that they spend money on brand new signs, which are then promptly vandalised. Sooner or later the case will go to court and the law will be changed to allow metric on signs.

This will happen one day anyway of course, but the actions of ARM are likely to speed things up.

I'd like to figure out why your local bodies of government are so anxious to use metric signs, even when they are not lawful under UK law.

Here we have the opposite. They are lawful, the Federal government would like local units to use them, but a law forbids forcing them to. Very few do use them. I wish some of your local councils would explain the benefits of metric signs to our states and cities.

I recognize you squeeze through the legal loophole of "unlawful" signs, but I do feel what ARM does is vandalism. Of course, the solution is for UK citizens who feel that way to demand a change in the law so your actions are unlawful, not the signs.

Andy - do you ever reason with a wild dog?

Anyway - dream on, mate.

Back to the USMA post - you forgot to add, Mr B, that posters there are getting fed up with him.
Or is that implied!

;-)

<<<I'd like to figure out why your local bodies of government are so anxious to use metric signs, even when they are not lawful under UK law.>>>

I suspect the reasons are:

a) that using metric is second nature to many people now in the UK, and the organisations simply didn't realise that they had to use imperial.

and b) the organisations are anticipating a future change to metric and decide to plan ahead.

<<b) the organisations are anticipating a future change to metric and decide to plan ahead.>>

Whereas ours are busy going "nah, nah, you can't make me!"

<<
I wish some of your local councils would explain the benefits of metric signs to our states and cities.
>>

John, could you mention some of these benefits? (I am assuming you are referring to US states and cities.)

Education and harmonization.

Education: You and other pro-Imps say Americans don't understand metric. They learn it in school and never see it again. They need to see it in trade and on roads to realize it is absurdly easy and all this fuss is for nothing. The education point probably only makes sense that US trade would benefit if industry went metric. They need workers who understand metric. Also, it would be good for when Americans visit foreign countries, which are all metric. They wouldn't feel so lost, since they'd be metric too.

Harmonization: Our immediate neighbors and every country whose citizens visit the US are metric. Our road signs would make more sense to them in metric.

Plus, we need these British towns who are so desperate to be metric that they will disobey the law to explain it. I'm sure they have better reasons than I do. :)

<<
Also, it would be good for when Americans visit foreign countries, which are all metric. They wouldn't feel so lost, since they'd be metric too.
>>
Haha. It would be nice if every country in the world looked exactly like America, so Americans won't feel "lost".
The reason you travel to a foreign country on vacation is because it's different. You want to experience a different culture. Americans almost never go to Canada for vacation just to see the place (unless they are going to a tourist attraction or to see family) because it's just like the US.

I'm not going to bother responding to the other points, because we've gone through them before and we'd just start going around in circles soon.

<<
Plus, we need these British towns who are so desperate to be metric that they will disobey the law to explain it. I'm sure they have better reasons than I do.
>>

The reason why a number of signs appear in metric units in the UKI is that the planning officers work in metric units and it is a right pain up the **** for them to remember that the regulations "require" them to use Imperial units for signposts - a kind of "Cultural Apartheid" that is being imposed on the British people by a Governemtn that does not have the guts to take any leadership in matter where in teh short term they might prove unpopular, but in the long term will be beneficial (Ask any South African or Australian and most will agree that their governemtns did the right thing by adopting the metric system)

<<a kind of "Cultural Apartheid" that is being imposed on the British people by a Governemtn that does not have the guts to take any leadership >>

1) To compare it to apartheid is probably insensitive to black south africans
2) Who are the majority in this so called "aparthied" and who is the tiny minority wanting to force people to talk and think in a different way through statist power?

Bad analogy

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<<<Plus, we need these British towns who are so desperate to be metric that they will disobey the law to explain it>>>

Going back to the 2 reasons I gave earlier, they are NOT desperate to be metric.

If you showed a sign saying "Toilets 200m" to people and asked why is that sign unlawful? How many people would know? 1% maybe? I am convinced that in most cases, people have simply not realised that metric is illegal and used the units they consider most appropriate for the signs in question. What possible reason is there for councils to knowingly put up unlawful signs?

re (Andy): "If you showed a sign saying 'Toilets 200m' to people and asked why is that sign unlawful? How many people would know? 1% maybe?

REPLY: A lot more than before 2001 when BWMA and ARM began their campaigns to ensure that the Traffic Signs Regulations were obeyed. And a heck of a lot of officials know now about the 'Imperial requirement' as well, due to the DfT's Mike Talbot's letter to all local authorities in July 2002, reminding them that all signs in the U.K. must be erected in Imperial distances and dimensions, with metric as an option only in highly limited cases

So why do they do it? You must know the answer after all these years.

Are they pre-empting a change in the law?

No - Martin has clarified that little issuette.

<<Going back to the 2 reasons I gave earlier, they are NOT desperate to be metric>>

Andy - the poster who said that is from America and he's desperate to paint a picture of Brits up and down the land salivating over metres and kilo's. He's desperate to make it look like only the US uses "imperial" and no such thing occurs outside the US.

His posts are littered with remarks about "metric terrorists" (surely that should be 'imperial terrorists' anyway) and that a quirky minority know imperial (and they don't know it well).

Let him have his fantasy.

Let the rest of us discuss reality.

<<<No - Martin has clarified that little issuette.>>>

OK I go along with that theory.

You have to laugh really. On the one hand we've got people wanting to use metres, but being forced to use yards. And on the other side we've got people wanting to use lbs/oz but being forced to use kg.

<<<Let him have his fantasy.
Let the rest of us discuss reality.>>

fair enough, didn't realise whose quote that was!

<<You have to laugh really. On the one hand we've got people wanting to use metres, but being forced to use yards. And on the other side we've got people wanting to use lbs/oz but being forced to use kg.
>>

Yes it is a tad daft.
However whereas I realise that a few people use kilos for food the idea that rules are in place to force designers to work in metres then subsequently label up the road in miles because most people would know what a kilometre was if it bit them on the bum is mega-daft.

The only reason why point (2) happens is due to safety overruling stupid red tape and beurocracy.

Other than that its just legislation for the sake of legislation.

Which is my pete hate.

Ooh, apart from middle lane hogs.

Ah, and those people who like to drive with their fog lights on.

And ....shudder.... euro numberplates [winces]

<<<rules are in place to force designers to work in metres>>>

This may be the case, but no designer would ever think of using anything else

How would you know that?

Big industry uses metric in designing house fittings (baths, walls, cupboards etc) but skilled fitters I've had working on my house always use imperial "on the job"

<<<
<<Let him have his fantasy.
Let the rest of us discuss reality.>>

fair enough, didn't realise whose quote that was!
>>

Actually, Stimpy guessed wrong, it was me. Admittedly, I was exaggerating my argument to make a point. As I frequently do, I neglected to see if the name box had filled in.

I accept the argument that planning has to be done in meters and converting the distance seems a nuisance and is overlooked. Nevertheless, it is an interesting contrast with the positions of our state and Federal governments.

True - you said "I'd like to figure out why your local bodies of government are so anxious to use metric signs"

But to be fair on you I was confsing it with another statement by Daniel about the people of the UK relishing metric signs.

Sorry for the mix up and I deeply apologise for fomenting the idea that you and Danny share the same views.

"Fomenting" seems to be the "word of the moment" in this "war on terror", don't you think?

Anyway - no hard feelings - you're a proper "pro-met" that I like arguing with.

:-)

No harm, no foul. I just thought I should 'fess up.

That's ok Bro.

I will not risk to dis you.

Man.

erm

"etc"

JohnS-MI, Stimpy, Respect!

I think you'll find that the current way of saying it is "'spect".

[annoying gloat]

Can you believe this? The latest word that means "cool" (which used to be "bad", which used to be "far out" [I'm told!]) is "book".

As in "Woah, that latest SNES game? - it's - like - totally book, man!"

Why?

Get this:

Start a text message and tap in (using predictive text) the word "cool".

For flip's sake!