I'm not really sure what section this one goes in. It's not really a transport sign, but here goes...

Quite a lot of swimming pools nowadays give their depths in metres only, so I've just sent an email to my local one telling them that these signs are potentially dangerous because around 70% of the people in the pool at any one time won't understand them. Below is the email:

"Dear Mr Spencer, I am writing to draw your attention to the potential danger of the pool depth and slide minimum height signage at Windsor Leisure Pool.

The problem with the signage is that the heights and depths are expressed solely in metric units, which - according to all of the published research - around 70% of the UK population have problems internally conceptualising. Either people don't understand metric at all (32% of the UK population in 2001) or they have a theoretical, learnt-it-at-school understanding which they still need to translate to UK units to make sense of (38%).

The result is that around three quarters of the people in Windsor (and elsewhere) would be hard pushed to say whether 1.8 metres - the depth of your deep end - would be over their heads or not; or whether their child is taller or shorter than 1.1 metres.

Metric-only signage also disproportionately disadvantages the over-25s and the lower social classes, who have the poorest internal conceptualisation of metric units.

In view of the potential risk here, please could I ask you to consider dual-unit signage, expressing depths and heights.

For your information, I attach a rather large document summarising all of the national market research carried out in the past 5 years into people's understanding of, and preferences for, measurement."

(I had attached the BWMA's new 37-page research document)

And here's an interesting thought - if you write to your local council about their swimming pools, and if they write back saying thanks but no thanks, you might like to write back pointing out the implications of what they have just done; because by reading and responding to your earlier letter they have just removed the one possible defence they might have had against 'I didn't realise howdeep/shallow it was compensation claims': they can now no longer claim that they acted in good faith and to the best of their knowledge and ability. Having read, and chosen to ignore, clear evidence that a substantial proportion of the public do not understand metric signs, and stated, in writing, their intention to continue to use the signs regardless, they can’t claim they didn’t realise, or that no-one warned them that people wouldn’t understand them. In today's litigious society this is not a comfortable position for a council to be in; and the alternative prospect of spending a couple of quid on a pack of sticky letters to show the ft-ins alternative might not seem such a bad idea after all.

The conversion to dual depth indications for swimming pools should be a campaign priority.

Most people think of their height in feet and inches, so it is not unreasonable that depth signs should include ft/in.

Moreover, as Warwick says, there is a health and safety consideration. Depth indications are there for a purpose, and cannot fulfil that purpose if they are in units unintelligible to most people.

I'm pleased to say that Epping Forest Council's new swimming pool, to be opened shortly in Loughton, will have both Imperial and metric depths. Credit for this is due to former BWMA member and Ongar resident Philip Ivey-Ray, a founder-member of IMPS before it became BWMA

Tony Bennett, UKIP

Here is the Council's first response and my reply:


From: David Scott
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 11:25 am
Subject: Windsor Leisure Centre - Signage:

Dear Mr Cains,

Your recent e-mail to Info@RBWM.gov.uk has been forwarded to me, as has
your hard copy of the letter dated 14th September which also enclosed a copy
of the letter you had sent directly to the Centre Manager, in connection
with the signage at Windsor Leisure Centre, which you feel is dangerous.

I cannot tell if you have by now received a response from Jes Spencer, the
Centre Manager, as he is on leave at present. However I would comment as
follows.

Whilst I share your concerns about ensuring that the centre is as safe as
possible, we have operated in the current way for a number of years and not
had complaints or experienced problems being raised about the signs being
confusing or dangerous.

It is perhaps worth noting that the 'pool' world has been metric for some
considerable time, generally 25 'yard' pools have not been built for
approaching 30 years or indeed more, but 25 'metre' pools have.

The slide minimum height guide, to which you refer, is not only given in
metres but also shown by a line fixed at the correct height as a further aid
to users to see if they are above or below the required minimum etc..
Feedback has indicated that the younger users (who are normally the users
who fall into this height range) tend to work in metres rather than feet and
inches, and this I expect ties in with their work at school.

Many parents are more familiar with metric heights of their children, as a
result of clothes sizes being regularly (if not almost exclusively) sold
with reference to a child's height these days.

However your concern is noted and I will pursue the matter further with the
centre manager on his return from leave to review the options available to
improve the situation and ensure that the overall signage needs are up to
safe standards.

Signage is not a trivial matter and one which we recognize plays an
important part in the overall safety of the pool. I will also consult with
colleagues in health and Safety and Trading Standards to ensure we are
compliant with our legal obligations, another important factor that must be
taken into account.

Thank you for you concern, and the time taken to draw this matter to our
attention. Clearly from the very extensive report which was written by you
for the BW&MA, this is a matter that you have particular interest in.



Yours sincerely



David V. Scott
Head of Customer Services
Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead


-----------------
Dear Mr Scott,

thank you for your email.

I note your point about the pool world having been largely metric for some time. One wonders, though, for what purpose, and for whose benefit, since the public who use swimming pools still, after all these years, overwhelmingly think in feet and inches and have difficulty in accurately judging metric quantity.

What I would ask is not an abandonment of your metric policy, or even a downgrading of it: rather, the addition of the familiar UK units alongside the metric ones, which can be effected in about ten minutes with a pound's worth of stick-on plastic letters.

This would have three benefits. One, more people would understand how deep the water is. Two, people's understanding of metric measures would actually improve, since they would be constantly exposed to conversions, telling them that 1.8 metres and 6 feet are the same thing. Three, you would be protected from expensive litigation.

Allow me to explain the litigation side of things. You will know about the growth of "no-win-no-fee" compensation lawyers, and the way they have changed the USA and are changing this country. You may have even seen the adverts urging people to sue if they hurt themselves.

Accidents happen in the most well-run of swimming-pools, and often they are nobody's fault; but people do sue. Many swimming-pool accidents involve misjudgement of depth, from spinal injuries caused by plunging into too-shallow water to drowning caused by weak swimmers getting out of their depth. Anyone suffering such an injury (or their surviving relatives), if they decided to sue, would be most likely to claim that they didn't realise how deep/shallow it was.

Your defence would be to say that the pool was clearly and adequately signed, and so you are not liable.

However, they could then claim that your signs were in a format the majority of your customers could not adequately understand, and their lawyers could produce a copy of the research that demonstrates, overwhelmingly, that this is so.

Your defence for that would have been to say that you were following the current, long-established policy guidelines in good faith, that you were unaware of this research, and that you could not reasonably have been expected to be aware of it. Except that now you no longer have this option open to you, since you are now fully aware of the fact that three quarters of the entire UK public do not have an adequate practical understanding of metric measures.

As you say, signage is a trivial measure, and it is one that can be sorted out very quickly and cheaply indeed, to everyone's satisfaction and benefit, whichever system of measurement they prefer.

With best wishes

Warwick Cairns
----------

An excellent exchange of letters. Warwick - can you produce a modified version of your letter for inclusion in the Yardstick for BWMA members to use?

At the end of this I will produce a standard letter. In the meantime, here is a further email I sent today:



David, a quick note further to my email of yesterday.

Quinton Richards, one of the two barristers I forwarded the email to, rang me today.

The gist of what he said is this: recent negligence cases have established the principle that although a person responsible for a public facility may be following long-established guidelines in his policy, this is not enough to excuse him of liability for any injury, loss or damage resulting from following those guidelines: the duty of care requires that he make an active investigation to prove that those guidelines suit the people who will use his facility.

This means that should any legal claim be made against Windsor swimming pools relating to misunderstanding of water depths, you will need to provide strong evidence that the national statistics (based on 5 years of independent market research amongst over 6,000 members of the public) are either wrong, or not applicable, for some reason, to the people of Windsor and those people from outside Windsor who might visit your pool.

Alternatively, you could just buy some plastic sticky letters and show the depths in feet and inches as well.

With best wishes

Warwick Cairns

Thinking about it, this whole argument probably has much wider applications than just swimming-pools: in theory, it could be used for any public facility where signage has a bearing on safety. And it could be a particular help in those areas where the traffic sign regulations don't apply.

One such area concerns the height indications given on petrol station forecourts - frequently metric only. The Truckers Road Atlas, which marks out all bridges in the country to help truckers plan their routes, uses feet and inches only.

I can say from personal experience, that swimming pools in the United States are exclusively Feet/Inches only, and that in approximately 25 pools I've been in, never once have I ever seen a metric label on them. We actually own an above-ground pool. All the paperwork that came with it described it as "24' diameter, 4' deep fully filled, and capable of holding 14,000 gallons of water." Additionally, all height restriction (we generally don't have width restrictions anywhere) are given exclusively in Feet/Inches, and I've never seen a sign that deviated from that standard either, in fact, there may be a law requiring it. In the light of recent events, I think they're will be a backlash against anything seen as "Un-American," and the metric system is included in that. While I'm not going to lash out against anyone or anything Un-American, I'm not going to shed a tear if the metric system takes one in the gut.

Whenever I have been to America (mainly florida) all the pools I have been to are in metric and proper measures!

Creeping metrication in the US, I'm afraid!

I live in Florida, and cannot think of one pool that I've seen be marked with metric measures. Interesting, I'll be on the lookout in the future though.

I don't know if this should go in this section but here goes. Whilst in the Salisbury Debenhams, I notice a height warning sign on a low ceiling over a staircase stating maximum height l.95 m. I asked for a manager and informed him that research had shown that people think in Imperial and that his store was not practicing the duty of care to customers. Feeling power go to my head, I said I would be writing a formal warning to Debenhams and would make the letter available to anyone who has an accident as a result of misjudging the ceiling.

Now that the new, definitive research report (now called The Weight of Public Opinion) is ready, I have emailed a copy to the chief executive of the ISRM, the body responsible for sports and recreation facilities, mentioning the fact that I have also sent copies to The Accident Group and a number of other compensation specialists whose job it is to pursue personal accident claims for members of the public. The message, really, is either the UK's pools reintroduce imperial signage alongside the metric, or else someone will sue for personal injury, sooner rather than later, and we will make sure that we do everything possible to assist their claim and extract the maximum compensation.

Original message
"Unfortunately.... November 7 2001, 2:26 PM

Whenever I have been to America (mainly florida) all the pools I have been to are in metric and proper measures!

Creeping metrication in the US, I'm afraid! "

1) When I say 'and proper measures' I mean ft and ins (didn't want to come across all "pro-metric" there (phew))

2) The only swimming pools I've been to have been hotel (ie holiday/vacation) ones.

I believe the metric stuff has been added to comply with the law.

There's hope:
A new swimming pool in Tonbridge, Kent shows depth in imperial as well as metric (and the imperial is more 'rounded' to boot!)
If you're in the area.....

http://www9.myflorida.com/environment/OneStop/Pools/64e-9.pdf

That link will tell you all you ever wanted to know about building a pool in Florida, and what the good old law has to say about how you can do it. Plenty of references to feet and inches, only two or three to mL, and only one referring to a diving board, that, oddly enough, must have "36 inches of guardrail" I believe the hotels you have seen may be incorporating dual marking for the benefit of their less knowledgeable International tourists.

Looks like some companies/individuals in th US are adopting metric even when the law does not force them to. This happens in the UK too (eg some fun parks have the "you must be this tall to ride" boards in metres even though almost no-one knows their height in metres!). Even worse (as can be seen from this board) some individuals break the law in the case of using metric roadsigns.

Interesting to note that whereas it is illegal to use metric on UK roads it is not illegal to use metric on US roads (although no-one does or wants to anyway!)

Also interesting is the document you mentioned in your post. All in imperial and then suddenly, unwarned and unwanted, up pops a 'meter' in defining a diving board!

Of course, due to the US strange spelling of the word 'metre' it could be referring to a meter that you would put money in to use the diving board!!! :)

You make some very good observations in your last post. I'm currently trying to come up with a pattern for how US Companies mark their products, and so far, I've noticed that products that will likely leave the US have dual marking, while products that almost certainly will not (ie generic products produced for US based stores) will almost always be in English units only. You are also correct, we do not force our citizens to use either system, however, I do believe that we require all of our imports to be marked in an inch/pound form, which, will bring an interesting conflict after the EU ships metric only in 2009. I hope they do enforce that, plunge the EU into economic dark ages, and hopefully the EU will collapse. As for the word "meter," I find the British way of spelling it odd... ;)

You should really call it the meteric system then, oops I digress! (fortunately the Brits and the Yanks have a sense of humour that seems to be missing from the right of GMT!)

I had the misfortune to have my boiler go bust on me the other day - I had to install a new one. The instructions had a fair smattering of metric in them but I was surprised to see the use of BTU's gal/min and degree F, nice to see they can't kill it of in boiler manuals!

Back to the point: When I landed in Washington a year ago I picked up a taxi card in the taxi detailing charges. I was horrified to see that the circular zones marked around the airport were in km (with miles beneath). Yikes even the chap in the supermarket told me where the 'litres (liters) of coke' were.
Even your government is giving in, hold your breath and open this:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
look at the stats of any of the countries.

This is the stuff I fear. The quicker our friends adopt metric over the pond the quicker the death of imperial altogother (and vice versa). This must not be done by stealth (as it has been done here, until recently).

SteveH

I hate to wish my life away but I'm interested to see how they (EU) can force the end of dual labelling in 2009! I mean, it will mean that 'also available in yellow' would be legal but 'equivalent to 2 gallons' would break the law. eh? Surely that has something to do with curtailing freedom when some words are forbidden but others aren't.

Well, I can't say anything further about "meter," maybe we're wrong, but, as they say, "Might makes right." Yes, the government was under mandate to convert itself to metric about 11 or so years ago, and some agencies made the switch, others never "got around to it" (I love how beaurocracy can just stiff the law and we can't), and some went metric and have now converted back to English units. The first, and perhaps biggest defeat of that mandatory metrication was the DOT's decision to shelve converting highways to metric, mainly because it was too costly and would provide an unnecessary burden on everyone. The Republican Congresses of the '90's also took steps to repeal parts of metrication, and generally everyone now agrees that metrication and modernization are not related in any way. The South has yet to metricate significantly, I can't speak for the Yankees up north, or the "Left Coast." Explain this one thing for me though, why do you spell program "programme," shop "shoppe," humor "humour," authorize "Authorise," and so on and so forth....lol ;)

Some of the spellings are from the French (eg centre instead of center).
Presumably, the Americans of 1776 would have shared the English spellings, but not since. Shop is just shop.

I never knew that, thanks for the information.

In fact, most of today's American variations were originally in use in Britain at the time of colonisation. We have changed since, but our original spellings live on over the Atlantic - like some of the imperial measurements.

If you look at some British literature of the 18th and even 19th centuries, you will find that they use 'American' spellings. Apparently, 'I guess', which is supposedly the typical American phrase, was used in England as far back as the 1400's.

How is it that the States drive on the right?

This is incredible, I was just being humorous, and it ended up answering all the questions I ever had about the subject...lol. Honestly, I don't know why we drive on the right as opposed to the left, I guess it just made more sense at the time. We have a few cars around that were made to drive on the left side of the road, however, the US Postal Service owns them all, because you have to lean out the right side of the car to put the mail in the mailbox.

English is an evolving language born of many, but having said that many of the American spellings occasionally don't make sense (mind you, that's a British perspective). But I love the way some Americans say Route as Rout and some say it (correctly) as Root. Remembering that a 'rout' is when you leave battle defeated. More interesting is that I've never heard an American say "Route 66" (for example) as "Rout 66". IMHO the 'e' at the end of Route is the deciding factor.
If you want a pure language you need to look at Welsh which, although it has 3 dialects, is extremely consistant and has far fewer oddities than messy English. It is also the oldest language in Europe. However Welsh is a sore point for me because I was born in Wales, proud of being Welsh but brought up in England - imagine not being fluent in the language of your birthplace!!!!
Next subject - DRIVING:
Apparently you lot (our American chums) drive on the right for one of two reasons - 1) Because at the time of independance you took a leaf out of the French's book and adopted it as a 'revolutionary move', or less probably - 2) something to do with your trains and the way they are loaded (vague I know).
If it's (1) then that goes back to horse riding. The brits rode their horse on the left of the road so that there sword was ready for battle (this biases righthanded people of course!). The French, rode contrary to this because of the way the Brits rode - it was tactical. So the main reason for driving on the left was for battle.
Some extra facts to brighten the day:
More people drive on the left, more countries drive on the right.
The French railway system 'drives' on the left (except the underground). This is because the Brits introduced rail carriage to France. Two interesting points come out of this:
1) The gauge is in , yes you guessed, imperial and
2) Why do the French have possibly the best railway system in the world with trains doing more than 200mph while the Brit's railway system is falling apart!!!?!??

The second question is rhetorical, please lets not go down the route (root) of cause, underfunding, politics etc.

Ok, swimming pools -> CIA -> language -> Cars -> Trains -> ?

Better go for a swim then!

Well, only Yankees say "root." I tend to look at the whole spelling and language thing this way; you guys created English, we simply perfected it. All joking aside, I really think the trivial little differences are what make it fun. I really am not too certain what that whole railroad thing was about, but thats alright. I can't help but laugh, the spell checker for this message board has flagged the "yse" in your version of "analyse" as being wrong, and has suggested I use "analyze" in its place...lol.

If most countries drive on the right, but most people drive on the left, which countries drive on the left to tip the balance? India and China?

Japan and Australia seem to come to mind for driving on the left (who do you think introduced that on Australia?).

Questions questions!!

Yes most (if not all?) of asia is on the left.
Note that when you get a japanese car or an older british car the fuel tank is on the left - this is so that when you've run out of petrol you can safely use your plastic can to refuel because you'll be on the pavement side. Recent british cars (I'm thinking Rover here) have put the filler on the road side to be safety conscious to our European friends (but not however to ourselves) Unfortunately the moral of the story here is to buy a car from asia to be safe when refuelling! (Next time you're driving take a look!)
Strange when you consider all those EU rules on safety don't appear to apply to Brits!

Commonwealth countries drive on the left due to links with the crown (excludes Canada for obvious reasons!). These include NZ, Aus, South Africa, gilbralta, india, pakistan, loads of carribean islands etc etc. Ireland drive on the left for historical reasons.

Additional note (re: Analyse)
I am an Oracle DBA, and since Oracle is an American product it gets a bit annoying everytime I analyse a table at the SQL prompt only to be told that the command does not exist!!!

LOL, it would be a lot easier if you just spelled it right, everyone knows its analyze...lol. On a serious note, I found out that, oddly enough, the Speed limit signs on Canadian "Interstates" (they're not really Interstates, just extensions of our Interstates at the border) are all dual marked, with KM/h on top, and MPH on bottom. I guess that could be a success for us, at least they haven't removed miles period. Of course, even the Canuks figured it out, Americans use miles, period, and if they changed the signs to 130KM/h, we'd just try to do 130MPH...lol, because after all, the signs in back of us were in MPH, and we'd just ignore the "KM/h" and assume these were too...lol. I leave you with a humorous quote from my favorite TV show, now in reruns, Star Trek, the Next Generation. "Negotiation is irrelevent, you will be assilimated. We will add your technological and biological distinctiveness to that of our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours. Resistance is, and always has been, futile."

Just thought that I should inform you that there's a reason that your computer only recognises 'analyze' and not 'analyse'. Living in England, thus my word processing software language formatting is set in 'English (UK)', and consequently it only recognises 'analyse' and refuses to accept 'analyze'. Check which English your language formatting is in - if it's 'English (US)', then of course it won't insist on British spellings or refuse American spellings.

To Bill - I *am* spelling it right (of course you know what the 'Eng' in 'English' stands for!) And what's all this with "Fall" and "Autumn"? Some americans say Fall and some americans say autumn! I would say it's simplification of the word (ie "Fall" is simpler) but then you take the common and simple "lift" and turn it into an "elevator". You should really have changed "stairs" into "upwardandforwardmover"
Only joking!
Talking about MPH/kph, in Ireland they have replaced all their distance markers with km but have left all the speed signs in MPH! An Australian friend was confused as he recognised how far a place was away but thought it ridiculous that he could only travel at 30 kph (about 20mph, I think!) In the North they only use MPH, of course ;)
Imagine if they DID metricate the UK's roads - they'd have to replant all those 3-2-1 marker boards a couple of feet apart for every junction in the land!
FYI (Bill): For every major junction in the UK the distance to the junction is signposted as 1 mile then half a mile and then 3 small signs 100 yds apart with 3 marks, then 2 marks and then 1 mark on it (then the junction). Something I miss when I drive in the US, all of a sudden there's ya junction! Oops you just passed it! (and you can't even get off at the next junction, go round the roundabout and come back - if you know what I mean!!)
But I still love driving in the US (it's a great challenge, especially after 8 hrs on a plane!)

For Frederick: Because my work is 'behind the scenes' I have to put up with the spelling mistakes from Oracle (luckily I've only come accross this one!). So I can't refuse American "English" because the job pays my mortgage! The user front end, however, gets to see correct spellings so no problem there. I can always "rize" to a challenge, of course!

Fred, I know that, I was just commenting on this forums built in spell checker, it actually has both spellings available, but advised me to use the "yze" ending, it was all meant as a joke.
Steve, that's the spirit, "rizing" to the occasion and all...lol. I found a word in Microsoft's Photodraw 2000 the other day that would make true English scholars cringe, the word was "Colorize." How about that, color and ize, all in one word...lol. I was thinking, I know on our Interstate 75, Exits, as we call them, are marked usually by 3 signs, one announcing the Exit in 1 mile, then 1/2 Mile, and finally 1/4 mile before the turnoff. All of our mile markers are just that, mile markers, and most, in Florida, have been mounted to what we call Motorist Aid Call Boxes, and each call box is supposed to be placed in 1 mile intervals. Since these boxes are just radios mounted to a steel pole, but since the steel pole is mounted in concrete in the ground, it would be fairly hard to "metricate" them...lol. It would be a nightmare, in both terms of labor required and money needed to convert our highways to metric, which is why only a handful of places tried it in the first place, mostly insignificant states who wanted to be different, but even for them, they realized it was futile and switched back. Costly mistake, I guess...lol

"Colorize"! Jeesh!

I've only driven in Florida and Baltimore myself, and you have the "right lane must turn right" stuff which helps with the lack of 3-2-1 boards. If you're ever over here driving you'll see what I mean as to how usefull they are. Unfortunately is does mean that some idiots get their final "overtake manouvre" in before zooming into the left lane before the "1" board and the junction (remember that you can only overtake on the right on British motorways, while left overtaking on A roads (lesser than a morotrway) is frowned upon).
Question: Is Britain the only country where the traffic light go "red" "red-and-amber" "green"? Many europeans find our t/lights quite fun when they visit the UK - I guess it makes the whole process feel like the beginning of a race!
Here's another big cost of metrication of our roads - if they ever did it. Our world renowned "M25" (the busiest "motorway/equivalent" in the world) has a clever dynamic speed limit system where the speed limit changes depending on the traffic situation a few miles further. These signs will only accomodate two numbers and thus if we did go metric they'd have to replace all these signs! A multi-million pound "upgrade" that no one would want. However the government need not fret, the roads are built with taxpayers money!
I still hate the fact that many Amercicans think we've gone metric over here only to be surprised the moment they enter the first road here. Reminds me of an episode of the simpsons where Lisa comes to the UK and Marge tells her on the phone "Don't forget, a mile is called a "kilometre" in Britain!"
Not Funny! (It's a good job we've got a sense of humour!).
The same sense of humour that prevents one episode of Fawlty towers getting aired in Germany, I wonder if you know the episode I mean?

Whilst on a holiday to Ireland about ten years ago, we were driving to Dublin and were surprised when we seemed to going away from our destination. They were in the process of changing their signs from miles to kilometres, but didn't do it all at once, so we passed a sign saying Dublin 30 (miles) only to come to one that said Dublin 35 (kilometres)! Very confusing.

There are always going to be those idiots who get trapped in the "Right Lane MUST Turn Right" lane who will maneuver into left lane, missing your own car by mere inches, and it always seems to happen on the Interstate at about 80MPH...lol.

Have I missed something?
What does lol mean?

LOL means "laughs out loud". It's a sibling of ROTFL - "rolls on the floor laughing". There are dozens of these...

Fortunately it doesn't stand for "Lots of Love" otherwise I would have got very worried!!!!

um..., lol

SteveH