Does anyone know what the latest plans are with changing speed limits in Ireland from mph to km/h? A few questions if anyone can help:

-Has a date been set for the changeover yet?

-Over how long will the speed limit signs be replaced?

-Whats happening with car speedometers? Do new cars now sold in Ireland have a km/h speedometer? After the change will they still have mph in small, or km/h only?

Any info or links greatly appreciated. Hopefully the British government will be monitoring the effeectiveness of the changeover in Eire as it will happen here one day..sorry guys :-)

I found the below writing from a website about Ireland. I typed in google "ireland road signs".
<<
Most Road signs in the Republic are in both Gaelic and English. Ireland is striving towards metrication so the all new-style green and white signs are in kilometres. However, nothing is quite that simple in Ireland so expect to come across some black-on-white signs showing distances in miles.
>>

I know of no plan for Ireland to "go french"

In fact, considering the domestic car market relies on those imported from the UK it looks like they'll go metric when we do (or as the Irish would say "never! to be sure")

Unless they add a few grand on to get Japanese imports to be directed to Ireland with their "km/h first" speedos!

You metric types do make me laugh sometimes!

(actually quite alot!)

Steve

I think you should do some research re. Ireland

These are facts:

-Virtually all distance signs are metric, a few signs in rural areas remain in miles, but are gradually being replaced.

-The government plans to change speed limits by the end of this year (I think.. it might be next year) and replace all the signs. Obviously this can't be a gradual phasing in as with the distances.

All I was asking is if anyone can give me any further info about this. Its not a debate as to whether or not its happening, because it is!

"Virtually all distance signs are metric, a few signs in rural areas remain in miles, but are gradually being replaced."

I KNOW! I was talking about speed limits - the topic of conversation! (P.S. new "irish" cars have mileometers!)

"-The government plans to change speed limits by the end of this year (I think.. it might be next year) and replace all the signs. Obviously this can't be a gradual phasing in as with the distances."

A fiver they don't!

"All I was asking is if anyone can give me any further info about this. Its not a debate as to whether or not its happening, because it is!"

Half happened, eternally.

BTW all the butchers and g/grocers in Dublin (the "non big company" ones") do their weighing in lb/oz, I suspect the rural parts do too!

Hmm, Ireland = small trader Lb/Oz, Big trader metric
UK = small trader (forced)metric, Big trader imperial preference (Tesco)

Trust us and the Irish to do the opposite.

P.S. Trips to Ireland by me = about a dozen and rising - thus I DO know Ireland a little bit!

<<
Whats happening with car speedometers? Do new cars now sold in Ireland have a km/h speedometer? After the change will they still have mph in small, or km/h only?
>>

If South Africa and Australia are anything to go by, new Irish cars will have km/h speedo's as soon as the change starts (if not a little before). The cost element wiull be nothing as km/h speedos are already made in their thousands. Since each car is individually specified in terms of colour, trim etc before it is built(maybe using a template), the mechanism to include k/h speedos in right-hand drive cars is already there (after all cars sold in teh South African and AUstralian markets are already buiilt to that specification).

I got the following from the [Irish] Sunday Business Post, 12/01/2003

<<
The government has given itself a two-year extension for the changeover from imperial to metric speed limits. The new limits are now due to come into force by the end of 2004. It is understood that some speed limits will be increased as a result of the adjustment.
>>

What I would like to know is whether the date set for the changeover has legal status or not, ie is it in law or simply a stated intention?

It is law. The following extract was taken from teh same article as my previous posting

<<
In December 1998 the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Mary Harney, extended the period for the use of imperial measurements on road signs and for distance and speed measurement until June 30, 2001.

Nine days before the deadline, Harney signed another regulation extending permission for the use of imperial speed limit signs until December 31, 2002, and for distance signs until December 31, 2005.

Eleven days before that deadline, just before last Christmas, she signed another statutory instrument extending the date for the use of speed limit signs in miles until December 31, 2004. Details of the new regulations were published last week.
>>

I believe that the Irish Government are currently prepapring legislation in connection with the conversion of speed limits to km/h - the biggest problem being whether or not there will be an interim speed limit sign (otherwise how do you distinguish a 50mph sign from a 50km/h sign?).

I was coming back to this forum to proudly answer my own question only to discover that you had done so! Thank you anyway.

Seems like a strange and inefficient method for managing deadlines, almost as bad as the one we use on this issue! Confusing why something which was apparently capable of being fully completed by 1999 is still having deadline extensions.

It is also interesting to note that the Irish Republic has interpreted what is now Article 1 of the Directive as *mandating* them to set dates for the conclusion of units as part of the transposition of the Directive, with two notable exceptions. If only we made such an interpretation a lot of problems could be avoided.

Incidentally here is the current timetable for conclusion of non-SI units in the Irish Republic, by the end of the year stated:

1992
Therm: gas supply (Chapter IV)

1993
Everything not otherwise prescribed or SI (Chapters III and IV)

1998
Pt/fl oz: drinks in returnable containers (Chapter IV)
Acre: land registration (Chapter II)
Fathom: marine navigation (Chapter IV)
Pint: milk in returnable containers (Chapter II)

2004
Mile/yard/foot/inch: road traffic speed (Chapter II)

2005
Mile/yard/foot/inch: road traffic distance (Chapter II)

'To be prescribed'
Pint: draught beer/cider (Chapter II)
Ounce troy: precious metals (Chapter II)

The road traffic date was 1998, then June 2001, then it was split into 2002 and 2005, and then 2004 and 2005.

Surely when Ireland has completed its conversion to metric on road signs, this will therefore cause a little confusion on the borders between Rep Ireland and N. Ireland. This might then put pressure on the British government to make the transition to metric in Northern Ireland, which in turn would hopefully turn the rest of Britain to km.

The British can learn a lot from the Irish as they make the change to km. It would be interesting to see road accident statistics to see if the amount of accidents has changed since the change. If not, this proves the ARM campaign wrong - metric signs are safe.

I don't think the different signs across the border would be a major problem, but we could certainly learn from Ireland as a contemporary example of road traffic metrication.

Conversely, the UK list is slightly less impressive:

September 1995
Everything not otherwise prescribed or SI (Chapter III)

1999
Pt/fl oz: drinks in returnable containers (Chapter IV)
Fathom: marine navigation (Chapter IV)
Gill: spirits (Chapter IV)
Lb/oz: goods loose from bulk (Chapter IV)

No provision
Mile/yard/foot/inch: road traffic speed and distance (Chapter II)
Pint: draught beer/cider (Chapter II)
Pint: milk in returnable containers (Chapter II)
Acre: land registration (Chapter II)
Ounce troy: precious metals (Chapter II)

Considerably less progress here, it really is unfortunate.

<<
Surely when Ireland has completed its conversion to metric on road signs, this will therefore cause a little confusion on the borders between Rep Ireland and N. Ireland. This might then put pressure on the British government to make the transition to metric in Northern Ireland, which in turn would hopefully turn the rest of Britain to km.
>>

No doubt it will, particularly where some lanes cross the border a number of times. A year ago there were distinct tax advantages in UK residents buying a car in Eire. With the rise in the value of the Euro, these advantages have disappeared. If these advantages return, then numbers of Northern Irish will be buying cars with km/h speedo's and this will bring more pressure to bear.

Of course, if HMG are satisfied that the Loyalist paramilitaries will not do anything silly, they might agree to a switch-over in N.Ireland anyway (or leave it to Stormont to sort out).

A petition is needed to give to the government. Us metricists need to have our voices heard outside of this forum!

Richard - visit www.ukma.org.uk

It's changed since last time.

Why would the Irish bother to do this? It's not as though people from metric countries can drive into Ireland.

While it is true that visitors who bring their cars to the Irish Republic are mainly from Northern Ireland(land border) and from Britain (short ferry crossing), there are ferries that run directly from France to Ireland and in addition many Dutch and Germans take ferries to the UK and then on to Ireland.

<<Why would the Irish bother to do this? >>

using km for distance and mph for speed is a bit too "irish" even for the irish

It will be interesting to see what happens on the road between Clones and Cloverhill. These two villages in the Irish Republic are 12 miles/19km apart and are both on the N53. However, there are four border crossings between these two villages and, looking at the map, only one even smaller village on the road.

Martin: "If South Africa and Australia are anything to go by, new Irish cars will have km/h speedo's as soon as the change starts (if not a little before). The cost element wiull be nothing as km/h speedos are already made in their thousands"

Come on Martin! You're brighter than that! Distance between UK and Ireland (UK being the importer/maker) = <100m. Distance between Ireland and some deal to import from ANZAC/SA land? #####miles ! Think "left hand drive = continent" to get my point further.

Richard: "Surely when Ireland has completed its conversion to metric on road signs, this will therefore cause a little confusion on the borders between Rep Ireland and N. Ireland. This might then put pressure on the British government to make the transition to metric in Northern Ireland"

You're dreaming aren't you? 3million Irish people changing the signs used by 59million Brits? [LOL]
How do you think people in Europe "cope" with a change of language at border crossings?

You metric fanatics continue to brighten my day!

Ross: "Considerably less progress here, it really is unfortunate"

Easiest response: "Oh what a pity never mind" (think "Time Gentlemen Please", Sky One).

Richard:
"A petition is needed to give to the government. Us metricists need to have our voices heard outside of this forum!"

Ha! Unfortunately your type come to these forums to make you points. The "pro-imperials" are the ones living "outside" this board! Its gonna be a tough struggle - much like selling us the Euro!

Many places here in the US the same thing happens with the Canadian border. I can think of a road in northern Maine that crosses the border twice. No one up there seems to have any problem distinguishing between miles/feet and kilometers/meters. It's been that way since the Canucks went metric. As I said before, Americans usually consider all the metric units as this goofy thing that "other" people use and so they expect it in Canada.

There are usually large signs on the main Interstates which indicate the difference between 65 mph and 100 km/h but nothing on the rural routes.

"Why would the Irish bother to do this? It's not as though people from metric countries can drive into Ireland."

Maybe they wanted to do it for their own sake?

<<
2004
Mile/yard/foot/inch: road traffic speed (Chapter II)

2005
Mile/yard/foot/inch: road traffic distance (Chapter II)
>>



Who would use inches on roads?

<<
Who would want inches on roads
>>

ROad signs that give the clearance of a bridge do so in feet and inches or in mtres (to one decimal place).

A full defintion of British road signs can be found on

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm

Meters to one decimal place? That's a tolerance of four inches! I hope they round down!

Fear not, for they are ignored!

Except of course when they cannot be.

<<
Meters to one decimal place? That's a tolerance of four inches! I hope they round down!
>>

Have you ever watched them resurfacing roads - they often lay down 50mm or more of asphalt. If teh heights were accurate to within an inch (25mm) before resufacing, they would be wildley out afterwards.

<<
2004
Mile/yard/foot/inch: road traffic speed (Chapter II)

2005
Mile/yard/foot/inch: road traffic distance (Chapter II)
>>

Road signs that give the clearance of a bridge don't fit into either of these. Are there separate rules for distances and heights?

"Except of course when they cannot be"

It would be illegal to have metric only - they can only have metric as secondary to imperial and then be ignored (and those of a political bent can claim that the UK is - ahem - metric!)

Do you really think anyone driving a normal vehicle takes any notice of bridge height signs anyway?

For information needed by all road users, signs in feet/inches only would be potentially dangerous as I believe a significant proportion of the population would not be able to understand them

Feet/inches are understood by everyone when referring to peoples heights, but outside this narrow range, are not understood well by younger people.

Yards on road signs are fine only becuase they are essentially the same as metres, which everyone understands - even young people use yards in speech, but you could say yards is just slang for metres

"For information needed by all road users, signs in feet/inches only would be potentially dangerous as I believe a significant proportion of the population would not be able to understand them"

I don't know in what dream world you're living, but this is just not true. In the US all clearance signs are in feet and inches. If a person is used to seeing height in feet and inches, then a clearance of 14'3" is extremely understandable.

Sorry I was talking about Britain - I have no doubt that everyone in the US uses and understands imperial, and that hardly anyone understands metric.

I think the US is in a much better situation than us in the UK, in that at least it is consistent with its measurements and doesn't use a mixture of the two. It would have been better for Britain to stay completely imperial than go halfway metric, then give up and stay between the two indefinately - with no plans to ever complete the process.

"For information needed by all road users, signs in feet/inches only would be potentially dangerous as I believe a significant proportion of the population would not be able to understand them"

You are on a different planet aren't you?
All the lorry drivers here (in this well known huge international British owned company) have their lorry loads stamped with the height - no-one even utters "metres" - no matter what age!

And all the people I know who've had to drive a luton (for example) have only ever used ft/in.

Andy - be honest - have you moved to the UK recently?

I know of knowone who can drive who would be comfortable in using metres for vehicle heights!

Do me a favour - go out and find anyone over the age of 14 and point at a lorry - then ask them to approximate the height of that lorry. Listen carefully to the result and realise that it's not a "one off". Proof? ask 10 other people over 14yrs!

This is classic stuff - I'm looking forward to whatever comes next ;)

You are living in a dreamworld, I can't believe I'm even bothering.

I'm not saying everyone uses metric - I would say for a lot of things most people use imperial

as for estimating the height of a lorry, I honestly think over half of people in their twenties would use metres

unfortunately I'm not sad enough to actually do the survey but I'm sure theres someone on this forum who would.

I honestly find it difficult to believe that you really think this way.

But you've got me stumped!

Of course there is no way of providing you with evidence here in cyberspace and perhaps you live in an area where a lot of continentals work.

I don't honestly know.

But I really get the feeling that you're not doing the "devil's advocate" thing and that you *really do* think most of us Brits use metric for most things.

I'm educated by this because it appears that being told "the UK is metric" and "97% of the people in the world use metric" enough times CAN ACTUALLY make people believe that way.

Our "cyber-conversation" has interested me, Andy. I realise what an effect the media and "officaldom" can have on people and I'm begining to think it is dangerous.

I only ask you now to just listen to what people say - not in "everyday conversation" but in what people actually use to measure. Of course I don't suggest you go outside and do a survey. Perhaps just keep one ear open to hear what people say in the supermarket or DIY or other such things. I think the BWMA's findings from an amalgamation of various surveys may interest you .

<<
It would be illegal to have metric only - they can only have metric as secondary to imperial and then be ignored
>>

There are a significant number of lorry drivers on UK roads who do not understand feet and inches. I see them every day on the M25 sporting French, Dutch, Belgian, German, Italian, Swiss, Polish, Spanish etc numberplates.

"Road signs that give the clearance of a bridge don't fit into either of these. Are there separate rules for distances and heights?"

I apologise if this is a bit unclear. The category in the Directive is "road traffic signs, distance and speed measurement". Height restrictions come within "road traffic signs". In Ireland the choice has been made to split the category into road traffic speed matters and road traffic distance matters. It is the latter of these into which height restrictions fall.

"It would be illegal to have metric only - they can only have metric as secondary to imperial and then be ignored (and those of a political bent can claim that the UK is - ahem - metric!)"

I know it would be illegal, but such illegalities do exist and in those cases the measurement cannot be ignored with useful information being gained.

"I know of knowone who can drive who would be comfortable in using metres for vehicle heights!"

I would be. Come on, it's not too difficult!

"as for estimating the height of a lorry, I honestly think over half of people in their twenties would use metres"

Indeed so. I am often surprised at how frequently metric measures are actually used by the people of this country. If anyone is living in a dreamworld it is those who claim that no-one uses and understands metric, rather than those of us who entirely accept that imperial is the most commonly used system but that metric is increasingly better understood.

"But I really get the feeling that you're not doing the "devil's advocate" thing and that you *really do* think most of us Brits use metric for most things."

Did he ever say that?

I think he said "50%"
Ok - not the majority in those terms but just as ludicrous.

It's quite funny reading all this BTW.

And I don't mean that in a bad way - more of a "quaint" way.

I posted a while back how imperial seems to be making a big "come back" (if it ever needed one).

I notice Radio1 dropping metres in its newsbeat recently as well.

You just need to listen to the kids.

I get my info from my cousins (one mid-teen one late-teen). Please believe me that I don't "bait" them with loaded questions - I just draw information from what they actually say (and not in "figure of speech" way)

Have the pro's here got any teen relatives? I recommend listening to them.

Oh, and I'm not going to start singing "Children are our future" by Whitney Houston so don't worry about that!

[another blast from the 80's]

"There are a significant number of lorry drivers on UK roads who do not understand feet and inches. I see them every day on the M25 sporting French, Dutch, Belgian, German, Italian, Swiss, Polish, Spanish etc numberplates."

Somehow I don't think that these people "do not understand feet and inches" or yards or miles for that matter. Just because they come from a "metric only" country does not mean that they cannot comprehend feet and inches. Everyone in the world knows that the British, Irish, Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, and other assorted English speakers now, or at one time, used customary/imperial measures and that they should be prepared for them in associated countries.

As for not understanding feet/inches for the general UK population, I think it's ludicrous to assume that "younger" people can't do it. If you know what your height is in feet and inches, you can instantly understand a clearance sign in feet and inches. We already know that most Brits know their height in feet and inches, so there's no trouble.

Matt,

Assume that you are driving a lorry whose clearance you know to be 4.1m. You were held up by heavy traffic and you tachometer shows that you are running short of time. You see a warning for a low bridge - 12ft 9in. You know that a metre is about 3 feet. Can you get under the bridge? If you can, you can make your destination tonight. If not, you will have toi take a rest. What do you do?

..easy

wait for a van to drive into the back of you and then sue the government for death through dangerous signage!

(sorry)

Seriously though - a continental lorry driver will know the height of his lorry in ft/in before entering Britian because of basic and, may i say, "obvious" safety reasons.

He'll also be aware of the signs denoting speed limits that are never "dual signed" (again basic safety).

He'll also know basic first aid etc.

You're argument is a non-starter, young Martin.

SteveH wrote: "Seriously though - a continental lorry driver will know the height of his lorry in ft/in before entering Britian because of basic and, may i say, "obvious" safety reasons.

Correction: he SHOULD know the height of his lorry in ft/in, but everbody knows that's often NOT the case.

"He'll also be aware of the signs denoting speed limits that are never "dual signed" (again basic safety)."

I'm sure that he will do 90 km/h on the motorway, since that is the normal maximum speed for lorries on the Continent.

wazzat in em pee aicht?

anyway - you are suggesting something with the "should" bit.

There's not been one story of a continental lorry ramming under a bridge.

The only story I've read is one of a UK school bus ramming a bridge coz the driver only used to drive single deckers but they gave him a double decker for that day.

That had nothing to do with signs and a lot to do with "stupidity" and "forgetting"


(and dare I say "habit"!?!? Again only metricsucks people would recognise that!)

Look, for basic safety issues for the time being, why not just have dual metric/imperial signs for ALL heights of bridges. It therefore stops all risks of ANY lorry drivers having to make conversions one way or the other. They are appearing all over the place anyway so just accept it.

If you say that all height signs should also be in metric for safety reasons for those who come from the continent, by parallel reasoning you could make an argument that all signs on roads should be in English followed by French, German, Italian, Spanish,.....

If people can drive in a country where they do not speak the language of the road signs, what's the big deal with the measurements? If a sign said "Vertical Clearance 4 m", and a continental driver didn't speak English, what good would comprehending the 4 m do?


Or have all the signs in England been changed from words to pictures now?

<<
Seriously though - a continental lorry driver will know the height of his lorry in ft/in before entering Britian because of basic and, may i say, "obvious" safety reasons.
>>

Not always the case. One and a half years ago I started a new contract. I was told to expect to spend two months in France and then two month in Italy. I drove to Grenoble palnning to fly home every fortnight. During the first week that I was there, the plan was changed - the entire project (apart from the familiarisatio nphase) was being done in Italy. I then drove to Italy without having had an opprotunity to get an Italian phrase book or to check any guidelines about driving in Italy. (I couldn't buy in in Grenoble because they were all French oriented).

Converting from France to Italy is no big deal beacuse:

1. They drive on the same side of the road

2. They have the same units of measure

3. The amount of text on road siogns is minimal, so a detaield knowledge of Italian is not needed.

Bud wrote

<<
If people can drive in a country where they do not speak the language of the road signs, what's the big deal with the measurements? If a sign said "Vertical Clearance 4 m", and a continental driver didn't speak English, what good would comprehending the 4 m do?


Or have all the signs in England been changed from words to pictures now?
>>

Bud, yes, the signs are largely pictures. I can recommend two sites:

<<
www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm
>>
This site contains the official law regarding road signs in Britain



<<
www.minvenw.nl/cend/dco/home/data/international/gb/verkeersb_engels.pdf
>>
This site contains the Dutch "Highway Code" (ie rules of the road). It is in English!!!!

If you comapre these two documents you will see a great deal of similarity between the road signs. And yes, many signs are pictorial, otherwise nobody would be able to drive in the Netherlands. (Do you read Dutch?).

SteveH wrote

<<
He'll also be aware of the signs denoting speed limits that are never "dual signed" (again basic safety).
>>

He will probably know that 50km/h is about the same as 30mph. (Actually it is 31.07mph). If he made this error (abuot 3%), the consequences would be minimal. If however he underestimated hios vehicle's height by 3%,it would be the difference between hitting the bridge or clearing it.

Word of the day:

"pedantry"

Martin,

Any experienced truck driver upon entering the UK will know that he must know the speed limits for his vehicle in mph, and the height and length of his vehicle in feet and inches. The UK is not the continent.

In the US, there are standard lengths for large vehicles and I use them everyday when designing turning radii for streets.

After the car, there are the following vehicles standard:

The standard maximum height for trucks is 13'6"

SU-30 which means a single unit truck, 30' long
B-35 which means a non articulated bus (coach) 35' long
B-40 which means a non atriculated bus 40' long
WB-40 which means an articulated 40' tractor/trailer
WB-50 which means an articulated 50' tractor/trailer
WB-55 which means an articulated 55' tractor/trailer

UK lorry drivers refer to their trucks as, for example, 40ft curtain sided.

No-one uses metres.

P.S. There is obviously a standard height for motorway bridges (14'?) as no motorway bridge I've seen has a clearance sign

SteveH wrote
<<
P.S. There is obviously a standard height for motorway bridges (14'?) as no motorway bridge I've seen has a clearance sign
>>

There is a bridge that carries a railway line over a road about 100m from where I am at the moment. The warning sign states that it has a 14'-9" clearance.

"There is a bridge that carries a railway line over a road about 100m from where I am at the moment. The warning sign states that it has a 14'-9" clearance."

1) Congrats for having bionic eyesight!
2) I was refering to motorways, not ordinary roads

Just come back from one of my many trips to Ireland.

They serve Smirnoff Ice by the pint over there (in an official Irish stamped Smirnoff Ice pint glass).

Last time I checked S.Ice was neither a lager, ale, stout, beer or cider.

Again - rules are allowed to be broken by governments so long as they're not British!

Andy in answer to your query:

The Irish govt. intends to switch over to metric speed limits in June, 2004. This is according to most recent media reports and an interview with the Minister for Transport (Seamus Brennan) on Irish radio about two weeks ago.

Now this is where things start to get confusing! The "official" date set previously by Minister Mary Harney states that the changeover is to take place on December 31st, 2004 (she changed the date set previously which was June 1st, 2004); however Seamus Brennan has stated that the changeover timetable will go by the June deadline.

At present legislation is being prepared to make legal the new speed limits which have been publicised in the national media. They will be as follows:

Motorways 120 km/h, National roads 100 km/h, non-national roads 80 km/h, urban areas 50 km/h and at schools etc. 30 km/h.

The Minister for Transport has said that it will be done in an overnight switch, following a long information/awareness campaign in the media. The new signs will be marked "km/h" below the numbers to avoid any immediate confusion. Car dealers will be given six months notification so as to order metric-only odometers etc. in vehicles (so I expect that from January 1st, 2004, all cars will be so equiped). It will be the law that all road vehicles indicate road speed and distance travelled in kilometres only.

The change is being made in order to standardise speed and distance indication on the roads. All older miles signs (black and white) and imperial warning signs (yellow) are to be replaced too (by 2005 at the latest).

Currently there's nothing about it on the Dept. of Transport website (www.transport.ie) but you can email them. You can also try www.aaireland.ie who many months ago carried a piece entitled "Miles Away" - that was before the last deadline (in 2002) lapsed!

Of course this very necessary change is to benefit the average Irish person.

Because they've been asking for metric roads for years, haven't they?

It's true that the motoring lobby has been pushing the Irish govt. to use metric speed limits because of the constant confusion the present system causes, but I think the average person on the street has no strong feelings either way on the matter.

I haven't heard any criticism of the intended changeover and as far I know, all political parties here favour mertication. I've read a letter in the newspaper from a motorist wondering if he'll need to get a new speedometer fitted in his car, but that's about it.

Thanks for the info, Victor

Hopefully the British Government will be taking notes, for when they finally get round to it..