Ok, here is the promised information on weights and measures on my trip.
First, let me start by saying that India is primarily metric. All education is metric. Imperial units may be taught as a means of demonstrating conversion factors.
However, here is the key point: People in India understand and feel comfortable with many imperial measures. If someone asked how far something was down the street, most people would answer in kilometers, however, if someone answered in miles, the person asking would not consider it strange or unusual in any way. This would apply to lengths (miles, feet, inches - I never heard yards used), and weights (pounds and ounces), but not volume or temperature. I never heard anyone mention volume or temperature in imperial in conversation. I do remember one billboard advertising a pint of something, and CNN America did display degrees Fahrenheit alongside Centigrade when displaying the weather on the screen. But average people in daily conversation did not use those units.
Another interesting one: Bombay public buses, directly above the tire, have the required tire pressure labeled in both psi and ksc. At petrol pumps, there is usually a conversion chart displayed. On the intercity highway, I saw several trucks that very closely resembled some I have seen in the US, brown in color and labeled on the back in white letters with gross and net weight in "kgs" followed by "lbs" and capacity in "cu m" followed by "cu ft". I am positive the same company makes these trucks worldwide.
Anyway, in summary:
areas where only imperial is used are, as far as I can think of, heights of people, areas of real estate, and tailoring (inches only),
areas where metric is usually used but people would feel just as comfortable using imperial include the heights or dimensions of other things (buildings, bridges, etc.) in feet,
and for most other things people would feel more comfortable in imperial.
The only commonly used imperial units that I did not see refered to by a native Indian or in the media during the week and a half that I was there were the gallon, quart, fluid ounce and yard.
btw, when English-language newspapers in India print stories from the US, Associated Press or New York Times for instance (which they have been doing a lot of in recent months), the measurements are always kept the way they originally were, which is usually in imperial.

One more comment I forgot:
abbreviations other than the official ones are very common. Signs often stated "kms", and for litres I saw everything from l (script), lt, lit, lts, and the most common, ltr, but almost never the official SI version, which is L. Millilitres are always ml, never mL, and are pronounced by saying the letters, as in "a two hundred em ell bottle." Many SI abbreviations are given in the plural, eg. cms and kgs, even in newspapers.

Please get ready for eric (postername='metre') to tell you that you are wrong, or that you made this up.

He kept banging on about me being wrong after a trip to Germany where imperial was displayed and used for certain things and he went on and on about it for ages!!

Just thought I'd warn you.

Re: my trip to India January 7 2004, 8:50 AM

One more comment I forgot:
abbreviations other than the official ones are very common. Signs often stated "kms", and for litres I saw everything from l (script), lt, lit, lts, and the most common, ltr, but almost never the official SI version, which is L. Millilitres are always ml, never mL, and are pronounced by saying the letters, as in "a two hundred em ell bottle." Many SI abbreviations are given in the plural, eg. cms and kgs, even in newspapers.

You will find this sloppiness in many developing countries. Just to mention a few, Middle East, Indonesia, Phillipines, most central American republics if they are not outright stuck with old Spanish units like Honduras, and some S.American countries. Even Japanese still use some non SI values.

Did you see it?

There!

Over there!!

Can't you see?

There's a leopard...

And if you look closely its spots seems to be altering!

SteveH, were you drunk when you made that last post? Or did you accidentally post it to the wrong message board? If you did in fact intend to post it here, could you explain how it has any connection with the topic of the thread, or even with the topic of these boards in general?

Apologies - Maybe I was being a bit too surreal!

I was comparing (absurdely) the expression of "a leapard never changes his spots" with eric
(who posts here as "metre")

I once reported about my visit to Germany.

I posted the fact that many imperial measures were in use in Germany.

Primarily I noted that I bought some trousers which were measured up in inches.

I was given the trousers in inches (34/32).

I paid for them and left the shop.

Each time I have mentioned this he has told me that I am wrong or lieing.

Thus - when he posted back to you purporting that you are correct in your observations (after I
mentioned that he would challenge you) I suspect that he is not showing his true self.

Does this explain the situation?

SteveH wrote

<<
I once reported about my visit to Germany.

I posted the fact that many imperial measures were in use in Germany.

Primarily I noted that I bought some trousers which were measured up in inches.

I was given the trousers in inches (34/32).
>>


Steve, can you remember which shop it was and where it was. (Until two years ago there were several branches of M&S in Germany - I certainly used the one in Am der Zeil, Frankfurt-am-Main.

Sort of

I cannot remember the name of the shop but it was on the main pedestranised shopping street in Cologne. It was around Christmas and the base of the street backed onto a square where there was a huge market square with loads of stalls selling or displaying lots of Christmassy stuff and also food and that warm wine stuff. It was actually extremely picturesque for what I consider to be a fairly boring country. There was a builing (I guess a clock building) with many bells that chimed beautifully on the hour.
The shop was on the right hand side as you walked away from this square. All the shops were high class and the fashion ones were particularly good. The trousers I bought where Armani Jeans and Hugo trousers. I remember particularly the camp shopkeeper eager to measure me up!

The shops were not the "M&S", "Woolworth", "Next" chain type thing but rather independant affairs.

I also remember having a rather nice rosti!

(I also brought back some Koln-Wasser - ie the original Eau de Collogn - don't worry though, *that* was in metric!!!)

SteveH wrote

<<
The trousers I bought where Armani Jeans and Hugo trousers. I remember particularly the camp shopkeeper eager to measure me up!
>>


He was probably trying to show off his English.

Martin

Think "Julian Clary" to get an idea of what I mean by 'camp'

;)

(oh, and don't take that winky character as meaning anything!!!)

One guy on this board finds it very difficult to go on the net, punch in Herrenhosen, and see what comes up, Sometimes inches in jeans, but never in anything else.

One more thing I remember, advertisement saying a certain car gives so many "kmpl", and then a sidenote saying "Mileage is under standard conditions."

What do you all make of this?

I followed your advice looking up Herrenhosen, then did my own search starting at www.kaufhaus.de and follwoing their links. (The Kaufhaus is a German chain store like John Lweis or House of Fraser). I eventually came to the site

http://www.marc-o-polo-shop.com/index_ZX_M1.htm

BY clicking on "masse" (note, the 'ss' looks a bit like a 'b'), I came aross a chart for converting clothign sizes to body measurements. OK, jeans were in inches, but nothing else.

<<<One guy on this board finds it very difficult to go on the net, punch in Herrenhosen, and see what comes up, Sometimes inches in jeans, but never in anything else. >>

Bingo! See what I mean now?

Take a hint - go to the place you profess I never saw inches. Be the one who "goes" to germany rather than believe everything the web tells you!

If I did a search on "Diana + conspiracy + Government + assasination" then I'm sure I can "prove" that Di was deliberately got rid of by the government! (Have I just opened a can of worms there?)

Bud - where did you see the "kmpl" quote?

Bud, Steveh,

"kmpl" means kilometres per litre.

http://www.prdomain.com/companies/k/kinetic_motors/news_releases/pr_kineticmotors_nr_20011101.htm

"The Kinetic Challenger completes non-stop "Kashmir to Kanyakumari" expedition in only 44.7 liters of petrol, achieves mileage of 82 kmpl."

Sorry Steveh, that was cut 'n paste ! ;-)

The kmpl quote was on an advertising billboard in Bombay.
Indians always measure fuel efficiency rather than fuel consumption.

Re: kmpl January 13 2004, 4:13 AM

The kmpl quote was on an advertising billboard in Bombay.
Indians always measure fuel efficiency rather than fuel consumption.

Now that's a new one to me. Knowing the engine capacity, I always understood 100km/6L indicated fuel efficiency and 100/7L does not. Indians seem to tank their petrol according to how many km they drive. Maybe that is done for economic reason. The other possibility is that it is a leftover of measuring in the imperial mode.

I'm fairly certain that this is a leftover from measuring in the imperial mode.

I know it would be mixing the systems but why not have in Britain miles/litre while we have miles on the road and buy our petrol in litres.

kmpl January 20 2004, 10:11 PM

I know it would be mixing the systems but why not have in Britain miles/litre while we have miles on the road and buy our petrol in litres.

That is one of the worst things to do. Once people get accustomed to something it is very hard to get read of thereafter. Much better to change road signs into km. It has to be done sooner or later anyhow.

The best thing to do is to let people do what they want.

<<Much better to change road signs into km. It has to be done sooner or later anyhow.>>


Yup lets spend billions converting to something no-one wants, that will benefit no-one, that will not recoup the costs from the economy, just so that people like eric - who self admittedly does not understand metric - can say "kilometre" and "litre" quite a lot!

Thank god you have no influence 'metre' (eric)

Re: kmpl January 21 2004, 6:32 AM

The best thing to do is to let people do what they want.


Your trust in peoples judgement is astonishing. If it would not have been for people with a more humane and enlightened world view, we would still burn witches, have slavery and treat American Negroes barely as human beings. Women would still obey their husbands blindly and more to the point in your case, still burn wives with their dead spouses in India. Do you really believe that we are all endowed equally with intelligence, humanity and compassion?

<<
Your trust in peoples judgement is astonishing. If it would not have been for people with a more humane and enlightened world view, we would still burn witches, have slavery and treat American Negroes barely as human beings. Women would still obey their husbands blindly and more to the point in your case, still burn wives with their dead spouses in India.
>>

I was saying that we should let people measure fuel efficiency how they want. I am not an anarchist, but regulating measurement beyond that which is necessary to ensure fairness is not the business of government. That does not imply that I believe government should not do other things which are legitimate.

<<
Do you really believe that we are all endowed equally with intelligence, humanity and compassion?
>>
No, but I see no reason to believe that politicians are endowed with same any more than the rest of us.

There's another one to add to the list of ericisms (previously called 'Jasonisms' before he got scared off by common sense!):

Being able to use imperial is akin to burning witches, have slavery and treat American Negroes barely as human beings. Women would still obey their husbands blindly and more to the point in your case, still burn wives with their dead spouses in India

Keep 'em coming, nothing like a nice bit of extreme out of context thinking (or EOOCT).

>>> Statement: "The best thing to do is to let people do what they want".

>>> Metre's reply: "Your trust in peoples judgement is astonishing. If it would not have been for people with a more humane and enlightened world view, we would still burn witches, have slavery and treat American Negroes barely as human beings. Women would still obey their husbands blindly and more to the point in your case, still burn wives with their dead spouses in India. Do you really believe that we are all endowed equally with intelligence, humanity and compassion?"


Question: is Metre excluding (alleged) witches, negroes, women as belonging to the category of "people"?

The cost of bananas is measured in pence/kg (pence/lb if buying from Steve Thoburn), or put more generally cost for one unit of benefit. The saem applies to alost any commodity.

When looking at the cost of motoring, one 'unit' of benefit is taken as 100km. One can then calcualte the cost of tyres per 100km (assuming a tyre life of 20,000km), the vehicle depreciation per 100km (Assuming a vehicle life of 200,000km), the cost of petrol per 100km, the const of servicing (assuming fixed servicing intervals of 15,000km) and so on. The cost of running the car (as opposed to standing costs like tax, insurance etc) is acalcualted by adding up these components.

Now looking at the cost of the petrol it make equal sense to say that the car's petrol cost £5.46/100km or to say that it uses 7 litres/100km. I think that even SteveH could work out the cost of petrol that I used in the above example. If using mpg, the calculations become messy.

<<The cost of bananas is measured in pence/kg (pence/lb if buying from Steve Thoburn)>>>

Or Tesco
Or any shop I go to in my town centre!


<<When looking at the cost of motoring, one 'unit' of benefit is taken as 100km.>>

er - why? why not 10km or 20 miles? OR 50 feet?

<< One can then calcualte the cost of tyres per 100km (assuming a tyre life of 20,000km),>>

tyre life is variable between cars and to whether a forced camber is approached. Also rear tyres can and do last upto 4 times the life of the front tyres. Some cars can go thru tyres in 12,000 miles some 50,000 miles - the figure is too variable. Tyre compound and profile affects all this too. Add to this that the same make of tyre can last longer or shorter than a seemingly exact copy. I'm not even going to mention fabric versus steel, remould verses first tread, x-ply versus radial and recuts versus runners.
Also - I have never heard ANYONE express "lifetimes" in km - its always been "m" (ie miles)

<<the vehicle depreciation per 100km (Assuming a vehicle life of 200,000km)>>>

Again too variable.
My mini gets an oil change every 2000 miles and I expect the engine to last at least 300000 miles. A lotus eclat needs a rebuild every 50000 miles. A chipped cosworth will get thru an engine in 30000 miles.
Also - I have never heard ANYONE express "lifetimes" in km - its always been "m" (ie miles).
Depreciation is also totally variable make to make and even to model.

<<<, the cost of petrol per 100km, the const of servicing (assuming fixed servicing intervals of 15,000km)>>>

Again too variable.
The Jag I'm getting needs a service every 10000 miles, the zetec can handle 20000miles, my cozzy/lotus was 6000 miles. Note the handy tie up between avg mileage - btw - ie 1000/month or 12000/year. Consider imperial was "invented" before cars that's not a bad tie up!
Also - I have never heard ANYONE express "lifetimes" in km - its always been "m" (ie miles)



<<<<I think that even SteveH could work out the cost of petrol that I used in the above example. If using mpg, the calculations become messy.>>>

I hope I have put across the fact that all these things are so variable that your method is messy. In fact you are the only person I have ever ever heard that idea from in relation to ecnomy and cars. In fact I have never heard ANYONE express "lifetimes" in km - its always been "m" (ie miles) and gallons for fuel efficiency.

Sorry for being a petrolhead there, btw!

Lets talk "hi-fi"!!

SteveH wrote

<<
fact I have never heard ANYONE express "lifetimes" in km - its always been "m" (ie miles)
>>

Alright, if you repeat my argument, but substitute miles for kilometres and put in the values that you think appropriate for your particular vehicle, my argument will still suggest that it is more logical to express a car's fuel consumption in amount of fuel (gallons or litres) per unit of distance (miles, 100 miles, kilometres, 100 kilometres) etc. You will find that for most vehicles the most sensible Imperial units
will be gallons/100 miles. Most cars would use between 2 and 4 gallons per 100 miles.

>>> Statement: "The best thing to do is to let people do what they want".

>>> Metre's reply: "Your trust in peoples judgement is astonishing. If it would not have been for people with a more humane and enlightened world view, we would still burn witches, have slavery and treat American Negroes barely as human beings. Women would still obey their husbands blindly and more to the point in your case, still burn wives with their dead spouses in India. Do you really believe that we are all endowed equally with intelligence, humanity and compassion?"


Question: is Metre excluding (alleged) witches, negroes, women as belonging to the category of "people"?

Let us put that mischievous interpretation down to muddled imperial thinking. Maybe it helps to re-read it again.

martin, using your cost/benefit reasoning, wouldn't it be better to list speed limits as the reciprocal i.e. time per unit distance? This would be cost (time) per distance (benefit) and would be more in line with other usage.
just a thought

At first sight you might be right, but it is worth remembering that time is always an independent variable (I exclude relativistic and similar effects), so mathematicians always calculate dx/dt and not dt/dx. The reason is quite simple - dx/dt can be zero and is always single-valued but dt/dx can never be zero, can be infinite and can be multi-valued. For this reason we use dx/dt rather than dt/dx.

re: "If it would not have been for people with a more humane and enlightened world view, we would still burn witches, have slavery and treat American Negroes barely as human beings. Women would still obey their husbands blindly and more to the point in your case, still burn wives with their dead spouses in India".

REPLY:

Slavery is rampant today in parts of North and West Africa. Not surprising really, as that is where the slave trade originated. It even extends into London as slave-traders and criminal traffickers in children operate within London. Many parts of the Muslim world practice female genital mutilation, a practice even tolerated in the United Kingdom so as not to offend ethnic minorities. In Hindu India, many female children are killed on birth. In much of the Islamic world, women are second class citizens - take Saudi Arabia, for example, where they are not allowed to drive! Recently the mutilated torso of a young boy was found in the River Thames - almost certianly murdered alive in witchcraft rituals which emanate from West and South Africa and are now occasionally practised in this country.

By the way, most of the areas of the world I have just mentioned have 'gone metric'

Martin - the most simple method, overall is to find a car index that simply show the cost in pence per mile (which sort of leans towards your argument in a far more simplistic manner).

This index takes into consideration mpg but even goes as far as incorporating insurance.



Tony - do you know Kilroy? ;-)

Tony Bennett wrote

<<
By the way, most of the areas of the world I have just mentioned have 'gone metric'
>>

There are four countries in the world that are not officially all-metric - US, UK, Burma and Liberia. There are about 200 other countries in the world.

You mentioned a number of countries in which unsavoury activities take place. If there is a correlation between metrication and unsavourly practives, we would expect to find unsavoury practices in over 100 metric countries without finding any in any non-metic country to be able to say that metrication can be suspected of playig a significant role. (THis can be shown by using the statistician's chi-squared test). You only named a few countries. You are therefore unable to make any assertion about the relationship between metrication and the unsavourly practices that you mentioned.

"There are four countries in the world that are not officially all-metric - US, UK, Burma and Liberia. There are about 200 other countries in the world"

Why do you keep saying that?

I've already told you that Barbados is mixed and St Lucia is as imperial, if not more-so, than the UK (eg imperial road signs).

Do you doubt my word?

I am beng totally honest in my observations there.

"You are therefore unable to make any assertion about the relationship between metrication and the unsavourly practices that you mentioned"

Do you not pick up that Tony may well be taking the p*ss out of a certain poster who compares using imperial with burning witches?

(btw, one wonder how many witches "said poster" has burnt in his own back yard in an act of failed self-denial!)

<<<One guy on this board finds it very difficult to go on the net, punch in Herrenhosen, and see what comes up, Sometimes inches in jeans, but never in anything else. >>


Guilty!

If I go there, I will be proven wrong. So I won't and you can't make me.

Do you realise how much of an effort it was for me to find a shop in Germany that would cater to me in inches, so I can honestly say I bought trousers in Germany in inches? Well, do you?

And now you want me to go against my principles and do something that may prove me wrong? I don't think so!

"Slavery is rampant today in parts of North and West Africa."

Unenlightened people.

"Many parts of the Muslim world practice female genital mutilation, a practice even tolerated in the United Kingdom so as not to offend ethnic minorities."

This has now been outlawed, as you are probably aware.

"In Hindu India, many female children are killed on birth."

Outrageous.

"In much of the Islamic world, women are second class citizens - take Saudi Arabia, for example, where they are not allowed to drive!"

Saudi Arabia is a totally corrupt and inhumane regime. Why are we not invading it? Possibly because it is useful to have a siginificant ally in the centre of the Middle East.

"Recently the mutilated torso of a young boy was found in the River Thames - almost certianly murdered alive in witchcraft rituals which emanate from West and South Africa and are now occasionally practised in this country."

Indeed: see 'Sea of Souls', shown last night on BBC 1.

"By the way, most of the areas of the world I have just mentioned have 'gone metric'"

Of course, completely irrelevant.

It is also interesting to note that, whilst female genital mutilation arouses much outrage, male genital mutilation continues to take place every day in the UK with complete legal impunity and even social acceptability.

I fear it will be a long time before we can proceed to remedy this complete injustice.

Am I not right in saying that male circumcision is commonly performed for medical necesity reasons?

This cannot be seen as true for the female variety

"Am I not right in saying that male circumcision is commonly performed for medical necesity reasons?"

Yes, but a very large number of male circumcisions performed in the UK are non-therapeutic and result from a religious imposition.

Well it's no skin off my nose