Following a Canadian newspaper article lamenting the misery of dealing with 2 different measuring systems on a daily basis. Contrary to some people on this board, the reality they so strenuously try to deny, is unfortunately evident everywhere in Canada, Britain and America.
While Mr. Platt thinks Canada is saddled with the longest measurement muddle in history, it is actually Britain that deserves that distinction. It's basically a formula where nobody gains anything, but has to work twice as hard for that privilege to make sense of what he sees and reads. After all it might be in ounces, or grams, miles, or (m) metres, L or gallons. Some people consider such a mess the epitome of democratic freedom. Well, for that they deserve no better.

By MICHAEL PLATT -- Calgary Sun

It's one thing wanting to sit on the fence, but not knowing how to measure the wood to build one?

Now that's sad.

And very Canadian.

If you're like most folks living in this country, you're a casualty of the longest-lingering gaff in federal government history -- one that continues to plague every Canadian who ever wanted to bake a cake, build a fence or read a European Playboy.

It's called the metric system. It was meant to make the simple act of measurement even less confusing, and bring Canadians in line with cutting-edge 20th century thinking.

With the 21st century well under way, the average Canadian no longer understands their own driver's licence.

Not only are we not metric, we're not imperial either.

We're sort of both, depending on what you want measured. And we're almost always confused.

Ottawa abandoned mandatory metric in 1983, fearing it restricted freedom of choice -- but the myopic magoos didn't drop metric as Canada's official system, leaving the half-converted country in measurement limbo.

As a nation permanently stuck between systems of measurement, once-basic tasks are reduced to guesswork, or with the right formula, a conversion requiring a calculator.

The stalled switch-over to metric has made every aspect of Canadian life a muddle of mismatched measures.

Most of us understand metric temperature, unless it comes to body temperature, in which case a fever is still anything over 98.6F -- maybe 39C doesn't sound like day-off-work sick.

Distance is now a kilometre thing, as is speed -- unless you're measuring a Jarome Iginla slapshot or the top-speed of a sports car, in which case it's back to MPH. And though we buy fuel in litres, our cars get good or bad mileage, in MPG.

To calculate most lengths and areas, we revert to imperial.

Our homes, measured in square feet, are built on metric lots, with fences up to six feet tall, and both are constructed from wood described in inches -- like a 2X4 or 2X6.

If someone hops over that fence and breaks into our home, police issue a suspect description in feet-and-inches, and pounds. If that same crook also turns out to be a drug dealer, his contraband is measured in kilos, ounces and grams.

People and their parts -- with the exception of European Playboy bunnies -- are always described in imperial terms.

The confusion starts the minute a Canadian is born -- when was the last time you heard a proud parent announcing their 3,750 gram bundle of joy?

Liquids are among the most unruly measurements of all, with pints and ounces the standard for alcohol, and litres for milk, pop and juice.

In the kitchen, a hodgepodge of millilitres, ounces, quarts, as well as pounds, grams and kilograms, can make a cook weep faster than diced onions.

The comedy of incompatibility just never ends.

Worse, there seems little hope of the situation changing, at least until Canada elects a government with enough leadership to finish what was started, or to scrap metric completely.

Children are still taught metric in schools, but ask a young person how tall they are, or how much they weigh, and you'll see the same pattern emerging.

Imperial is being passed on to new generations -- not enough to give them thorough understanding, but too much to let metric rule.

The result is a system so cluttered we'd almost be better off going back to the days when people used their hands and feet to measure things -- at least then there might be some consistency.

Instead, because politicians decided to meddle in the lives of Canadians but lacked the leadership to finish the job, the country will remain in measurement limbo indefinitely.

Thirty-four years after Canada started going metric, the job is still only half-finished.

Whether it's centimetre-by-centimetre, or inch-by-inch, it's time this country started moving towards one system, and one system only.

Couldn't be bothered to read all that.

I'm fed up with trying to guess whether eric is lying or telling the truth.

So I can't be bothered.

Did anyone else read it?

Here's the link:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Calgary/Michael_Platt/2004/03/25/394493.html

This article proves that while metricators continue to assert that the US is the only non-metric nation, they are wrong. The Canadians can't give up imperial either.

He's actually truthful this time March 31 2004, 2:15 PM

Here's the link:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Calgary/Michael_Platt/2004/03/25/394493.html

This article proves that while metricators continue to assert that the US is the only non-metric nation, they are wrong. The Canadians can't give up imperial either.

Proud of your collective ignorance, are you?

Three years ago I was working with an Australian who had previously lived in Calgary (where the new articel at the head of this thread originated).

He told me of a radio program in which somebody was trying to halt metrication. The speaker told the public how the Australian metrication Board had been wound upand he sufggested that it was because the Australians had also rejected metrication. When that piece of mis-information was put over the airwaves, my collegue's wife picked up the phone to correct the radio station on two points:

1. We are very happy with the Metric system in Australia thank you.

2. The Australian Metrication Board was disbanded because its job was done.

"This article proves that while metricators continue to assert that the US is the only non-metric nation, they are wrong. The Canadians can't give up imperial either."

You are forgetting another rather important and historically relevent country there, Matt!

"2. The Australian Metrication Board was disbanded because its job was done. "

Indeed, how can ANY state run agency stop people "speaking" imperial? That's impossible without --- well --- I'm sure Australia would never "go there".

Ignorance my foot (no pun intended).

Go to Canada and see for yourself (I think if you left your cave where you live in front of your computer, you might learn some things). The Canadians really do still use imperial measures for various things in daily life, just as the article says. I would say that they're stuck in a larger metric/imperial quagmire than Great Britain is IMHO.

"I think if you left your cave where you live in front of your computer, you might learn some things. "

I always imagine him in one of those 70's style flats, you know - the high rise ones. He'd be in a room on the 40th floor and have lots of 70's style decoration.

And I suspect the lift would smell of wee.

At least I've been to Canada April 1 2004, 1:54 PM

Ignorance my foot (no pun intended).

Go to Canada and see for yourself (I think if you left your cave where you live in front of your computer, you might learn some things). The Canadians really do still use imperial measures for various things in daily life, just as the article says. I would say that they're stuck in a larger metric/imperial quagmire than Great Britain is IMHO.

That foot seems to be stuck in your big mouth you ignorant troglodyte. Obviously that article went way over your USC handicapped head. Who maintained anywhere in it that Canada is a fully metric country?

For your edification, collective ignorance referred to metric illiterates like you.

You are a very stupid hypocrite Eric.

Luckily we can see straight thru you (and I think I speak on behalf of pro-imperials and pro-metrics)

"For your edification, collective ignorance referred to metric illiterates like you"

For your information, it's impossible to have a degree in engineering and be a metric illiterate. I have a B.S. in Civil Engineering from the University of Maryland, at College Park. In school we used a healthy balence of metric measures and customary ones. I understand customary measures and metric ones or I couldn't be a qualified engineer. It's impossible to get through school otherwise.

Now...back to your regularly scheduled American bashing...

I think he might be bashing something else for the moment.

He seems to have an allocated time each day when he is allowed to use a computer and hence post here.

I wonder what that tells us?

I'm not sure what the Platt article is actualy trying say in terms of a soultion to Canada's problem.

He says there should be one system but not what it should be, except for his scathing reference to the Govenment for "not dropping metric".

The point he misses is that there is only one true system. The mish-mash of non-metric units that still abound in Canada cannot be called a system.

Hence his call for a single system (a good idea to anyone sensible about measurement) is contradicted by his apparent preference for non-metric.

Illiterate? April 2 2004, 1:52 PM

"For your edification, collective ignorance referred to metric illiterates like you"

For your information, it's impossible to have a degree in engineering and be a metric illiterate. I have a B.S. in Civil Engineering from the University of Maryland, at College Park. In school we used a healthy balence of metric measures and customary ones. I understand customary measures and metric ones or I couldn't be a qualified engineer. It's impossible to get through school otherwise.

Now...back to your regularly scheduled American bashing...

Thanks for posting your curriculum vitae, I am suitably impressed. Mind you it does not explain why you continually misinterprete my posts.

As to Yankee bashing, ever asked yourself why it happens? Let me give you a tip, navel gazing, and that includes measurements.

Back to the article April 5 2004, 12:35 AM

I'm not sure what the Platt article is actualy trying say in terms of a soultion to Canada's problem.

He says there should be one system but not what it should be, except for his scathing reference to the Govenment for "not dropping metric".

The point he misses is that there is only one true system. The mish-mash of non-metric units that still abound in Canada cannot be called a system.

Hence his call for a single system (a good idea to anyone sensible about measurement) is contradicted by his apparent preference for non-metric.


Whether he preferes metric, or imperial, is irrelevant in this case, I think. What he does highlight is the misery of using 2 incompatible systems. If anyone would pursue this anomaly it would reveal that people make mistakes galore with often costly consequences.

That reminds me.
I'll need to see if the Bahamians live in absolute "misery" when I go there!

You do make me laugh, eric!

Your stupidity is so extreme, its entirely based upon an assumption that things really are how you explain them! And the funniest thing is that its always the opposite that's true!

"Whether he preferes metric, or imperial, is irrelevant in this case, I think. What he does highlight is the misery of using 2 incompatible systems. If anyone would pursue this anomaly it would reveal that people make mistakes galore with often costly consequences."

I would not call what we have in the US 2 incompatible systems, but rather one large interrelated system with different units for different purposes. Yes there are mistakes that occur because people do not understand that they need to be careful with units (i.e. the Mars rover) which is an oft cited example; however, this was not a mistake resulting from a poor system of measurement, but from poor attention to detail in marking the units used which is extremely important regardless of the measurement system.

I use measurements everyday, and there is always room for a mistake. These can happen in metric or customary units, or both. If the units are properly indicated and the system understood, then there should be and is no confusion.

BTW, you did not respond to the fact that I AM NOT METRICALLY ILLITERATE as my education shows. What you did do however is imply that Americans are all idiots when that is not the case.

....that's eric for you!

far from galore April 5 2004, 1:53 PM

"Whether he preferes metric, or imperial, is irrelevant in this case, I think. What he does highlight is the misery of using 2 incompatible systems. If anyone would pursue this anomaly it would reveal that people make mistakes galore with often costly consequences."

MattS:
I would not call what we have in the US 2 incompatible systems, but rather one large interrelated system with different units for different purposes. Yes there are mistakes that occur because people do not understand that they need to be careful with units (i.e. the Mars rover) which is an oft cited example; however, this was not a mistake resulting from a poor system of measurement, but from poor attention to detail in marking the units used which is extremely important regardless of the measurement system.

metre:
Why burden yourself with something for nothing? Why force children to waste precious time on obsolete units? The rest of the world does just fine with one system. Never mind how you twist and turn with the Mars rover, the undisputed fact is that a mix up of 2 measurements caused the crash. Had NASA used one system it would not have happened.

MattS:
I use measurements everyday, and there is always room for a mistake. These can happen in metric or customary units, or both. If the units are properly indicated and the system understood, then there should be and is no confusion.

You said it, mistakes are made in either system.
So, how much logic does it take to understand that using two measurement systems doubles, if not triples, the chances of making errors.

MattS:
BTW, you did not respond to the fact that I AM NOT METRICALLY ILLITERATE as my education shows. What you did do however is imply that Americans are all idiots when that is not the case.

metre:
You may be metric literate, but far from fluent.

No, not all Americans are idiots, far from it. Yet it seems to be the narrow minded idiots that everybody hears around the world.
As an aside, a countryman of yours lamented the fact that engineers hang on to obsolete units more than any other profession. Any ideas why that should be so?

Nice to see you still recycle your junk, eric - doing your bit to be green!

especially this one:

"You may be metric literate, but far from fluent. "

Why can't he accept that you can be proficient in both systems? It really is not difficult at all. Trying being fluent in two languages - that can be difficult due to the millions of "conversions" in regards to words. But a handfull of regularly used measurements? You truly are one mad person!

Since you seem to be daftly ignorant of previous posts, customary units are NOT obsolete as I have already stated that obsolete means no longer in use or no longer having use.

"Why force children to waste precious time on obsolete units?"

These children are not wasting time on obsolete units since these units ARE in use and learning them is NECESSARY for everyday life here in my country. You can't even follow a recepie or drive a car here without understanding customary measures. Which you would realize if you had ever been to the US.

"Never mind how you twist and turn with the Mars rover, the undisputed fact is that a mix up of 2 measurements caused the crash. Had NASA used one system it would not have happened."

This does NOT prove that using the metric system ONLY would have been better than using the customary one. HOWEVER, this mistake is the ONLY one of any consequence that I can find that was made having two systems of measurement.

"You may be metric literate, but far from fluent."

This is about all I need to be since I NEVER use metric units for any substantial application.

<<< You can't even follow a recepie or drive a car here without understanding customary measures. Which you would realize if you had ever been to the US>>

Makes me wonder if he still holds a driving license.

Oh I forgot, he's the spokesman for metric that doesn't know metric!

Is anyone else seeing this thread listed BELOW another one dated March 31?

Obsolete units April 6 2004, 1:30 PM
MattS:
Since you seem to be daftly ignorant of previous posts, customary units are NOT obsolete as I have already stated that obsolete means no longer in use or no longer having use.

metre:
Just take your time, read slowly, and think if that is at all possible.
Many third world countries still use oxen/horse pulled ploughs and carts. Now watch this, we do all those chores with motorised vehicles. Which would you call obsolete, antiquated, outdated?

"Why force children to waste precious time on obsolete units?"

These children are not wasting time on obsolete units since these units ARE in use and learning them is NECESSARY for everyday life here in my country. You can't even follow a recepie or drive a car here without understanding customary measures. Which you would realize if you had ever been to the US.

metre:
Boy, I wonder how the rest of the world ever changed their measurements?
If "obsolete" bothers you lets use some substitutes like antiquated and outdated. Feel better now?
So, why are American children forced to waste precious time on antiquated, or outdated units. Only Britain and Canada join you in that wanton waste of children's precious time. Why would any sane person force children to learn 2 measurements, if only one measurement language is spoken world wide?

"Never mind how you twist and turn with the Mars rover, the undisputed fact is that a mix up of 2 measurements caused the crash. Had NASA used one system it would not have happened."

MattS:
This does NOT prove that using the metric system ONLY would have been better than using the customary one. HOWEVER, this mistake is the ONLY one of any consequence that I can find that was made having two systems of measurement.

metre:
I am not arguing about measurement merits here, the world knows the answer to that one. My argument was that 2 systems create problems, full stop.
Yes this was a spectacular, unnecessay and costly one. What you don't hear of are the mistakes made on a daily basis. Like the American company selling sugar to Japan quoting the pound price, when the Japanese buyer presumed quite rightly it was in kg. That cost them dearly and I am sure there are many others out there.

"You may be metric literate, but far from fluent."

This is about all I need to be since I NEVER use metric units for any substantial application.

Fine.

Bud - yes I see the listing in the incorrect order.

I believe it's a bug but no-one believed me!

Still - it keeps paradise above eric's hell!

BTW - Who saw a list of cut-n-pastes, lies and insults and skipped merrily over them?

Why would any sane person force children to learn 2 measurements, if only one measurement language is spoken world wide?

LIE

One measurement language is not spoken worldwide. I invite you to the United State of America. Large country (3,717,792 sq mi). Many people (population 290 million). Mind you these are not majorities in the world, about 5% of the world population, and 6% of the world's land area. However, GNP is 11,300 billion dollars, that's 33% of the whole world.

We do not use metric measures in the US for most applications! Thus kids MUST learn 2 systems. One very proficiently, and the other enough to use. And that's not about to change over night, even if you think it should or want it to.

MattS wrote

<<
I invite you to the United State of America. Large country (3,717,792 sq mi).
>>

The CIA factbook quotes the area of the US as:

total: 9,629,091 sq km
land: 9,158,960 sq km
water: 470,131 sq km
note: includes only the 50 states and District of Columbia


While I do not dispute Matt's figures, it is interesting to note that the figures given to US diplomats is in metric units. Is this a matter of one system for "them" and another for "us".

"note: includes only the 50 states and District of Columbia "

What does this mean?

Is the "District of Columbia" not a state or something?

Educate me....

The District or DC as we call it if you live in the area is not a state. It's a federal district. It's governed by a mayor and city council elected by the populous.

There have been several forms of appointed and elected governments in the District of Columbia: an appointed, three-member commission (1790-1802); elected councils and an appointed mayor (1802-1820); elected councils and an elected mayor (1820-1871); an appointed governor, a two-house legislature (one appointed and the other elected), and an elected , non-voting delegate to the Congress (1871-1874); and another appointed, three-member commission (1874-1967). Following the defeat by Congress of a home rule effort in 1967, then-President Lyndon B. Johnson reorganized the District government and created the positions of an appointed mayor/commissioner and an appointed nine-member council.

District residents won the right to vote in a presidential election on March 29, 1961, to elect a board of education in 1968 and, in 1970, to elect a non-voting delegate to the House of Representatives. In 1973, Congress approved a bill that provided District residents with an elected form of government with limited home rule authority; as a result, District residents voted for a mayor and a council for the first time in more than 100 years. District residents accepted the home rule charter by referendum vote in 1974. Congress delegated to the District government the authority, functions and powers of a state, with a very important exception: Congress retains control over the District's revenue and expenditures by annually reviewing the entire District government budget. In addition, Congress has repeatedly prohibited the District from imposing a non-resident income tax.

Because the district has no voting representation in Congress they rightly feel they have no say in taxation. Thus their new license plates say "Taxation without Representation" harkening back to a cry used by patriots against the British crown when they were unfairly taxed without representatives in Parlaiment.

It's interesting to me that the CIA uses those metric figures since the entire US has been surveyed using exclusively customary measures. Thus, the "official" number is most likely in customary units.

The United States Geological Survey (USGS) is responsible for coordinating the various mapping which is done for the entire country.

There are two "official" grid systems used in the US. NAD27 and NAD83. Both are used. These stand for North American Datum 1927, and North American Datum 1983. These are set up by each state which picks its global origin and aligns it to the national datum set by the USGS.

NAD27 is exclusively in US Survey feet. When the NAD83 was created, each state was given the choice which unit would be used: survey feet, international feet, meters. Some states made distinct choices while others defaulted to survey feet.

However, the USGS maintains their grids in US Survey Feet. They publish "7.5 Minute Quadrangle" maps on the NAD27 datum. All official surveys done by the US Government, I believe are done in US Survey Feet. One should also note that fundamental survey units, such as rods/polls/perches, chains, miles, acres, sections, and townships are defined in terms of the US Survey Foot.

Back in the days when the US government was seriously trying to convert to metric, they had the idea to simply convert the government workings to metric, reasoning that since the government is so influential everyone else would follow. That is why they asked agencies to convert to metric, submit progress reports, etc. In my opinion, this is why the CIA Factbook is in metric. The CIA handbook is similar to the few metric roadsigns in the US: changed to metric in anticipation of a nationwide changeover that never occurred, and then sticking out because they were never changed back.
In any case, if you look closely you will see that many numbers in the handbook will yield rounded values when converted to imperial. One obvious one is the length of airport runways.

metre:
Why would any sane person force children to learn 2 measurements, if only one measurement language is spoken world wide?

MattS:
LIE

One measurement language is not spoken worldwide.

metre:
Sorry to disappoint you. For all practical purposes it actually is. USC is only spoken America wide.


MattS:
I invite you to the United State of America. Large country (3,717,792 sq mi). Many people (population 290 million). Mind you these are not majorities in the world, about 5% of the world population, and 6% of the world's land area. However, GNP is 11,300 billion dollars, that's 33% of the whole world.

metre:
You should be careful throwing numbers about, but since we are at it, let me add another superlative one. The US debt as of 8.4.04 amounts to
$US 7,135,094,864,403.86
That should give you something to chew on for a while.

MattS:
We do not use metric measures in the US for most applications! Thus kids MUST learn 2 systems. One very proficiently, and the other enough to use. And that's not about to change over night, even if you think it should or want it to.

metre:
I and many others beg to differ. US children, like their British counterparts, were and are not proficient in their outdated measurements.

Your industry is 40% metric and growing. In 2010 US products sold to the EU have to be labelled in proper metric quantities, no daft soft conversions. With your unemployment rate you can't ignore that market. So what is it going to be, join the modern world, or stay in the middle ages for the sake of a few thousand misguided imperialists?
By the way, why are you so selective in answering my rebuttals, got a problem somewhere?

Current Topic - Measurement hell.

Bud:
Back in the days when the US government was seriously trying to convert to metric, they had the idea to simply convert the government workings to metric, reasoning that since the government is so influential everyone else would follow. That is why they asked agencies to convert to metric, submit progress reports, etc. In my opinion, this is why the CIA Factbook is in metric. The CIA handbook is similar to the few metric roadsigns in the US: changed to metric in anticipation of a nationwide changeover that never occurred, and then sticking out because they were never changed back.
In any case, if you look closely you will see that many numbers in the handbook will yield rounded values when converted to imperial. One obvious one is the length of airport runways.


Nobody should be proud about America's political cowardice regarding metrication cowardice.

To MattS:

Thank you for that bit of interesting information - you have enlightened me!

Is the "DC" the bit you hear when people say "Washington DC" - or am I just being conpletely ignorant there?

The D. of C. situation sounds a lot like our "Welsh Assembly" - or "bloody great waste of money" as most Welsh people call it!

Yes, DC is Washington, District of Columbia, or Washington D.C. The city is called Washington, and the place is the District. It was carved out of part of Maryland and Virginia, but for some strange reason, Virginia got their land back and Maryland didn't. One other note is that there is a proposal in front of Congress for DC to become a state called New Columbia. It doesn't look promising though.

I live in Maryland just northwest of Baltimore, but I went to school outside DC at the University of MD. It's well known if you live here that DC's government has always had problems. It's not however understood outside the DC environs.

Now to make this appropriate for the boards. DC was surveyed by Benjamin Banneker (a black mathemetician) and Andrew Ellicot. It was laid out to be 10 miles square. Pierre L'Enfant, a Frenchman, designed the city, but politics got in the way and he was fired. Banneker then finished the work based on L'Enfant's plans. Thus, DC was designed in 1791 by a Frenchman using all customary measures.

I once thought (a long times ago!) that the DC in Washington DC stood for "Direct current" because that was the power supply - I kid you not!!! (D'Oh!)

I once did some work in Maryland.
On arriving I was told that it was *not* pronounced Mary - land, but rather "ma -ruh - land", the same as we pronounce "mary" in Marylebone (n. london)

I landed in Washington and had to take a taxi to near Baltimore. Interestingly i noticed that the charge zone distance map in the taxi was in miles AND km !

I'm sorry to say that the highlight of my stay was going to a Wendy's opposite my hotel (Wendy's went bust in the UK - which is a big shame as they are so much better than BK and McD). I didn't get to see much of Maryland really, apart from the hotel, wendy's and the offices of PWC.

I left london where it was raining and cold and baltimore was 85F - when I go to baltimore it rained and got quite cold. Apparently, during my stay, London hit 85F in the sun! Typical!

MattS wrote

<<
Thus, DC was designed in 1791 by a Frenchman using all customary measures.
>>

It is hardly surprising that he used customary measures - the use of the metre only formally became law in France in 1793, while a year previously (1790), Jefferson had been proposing a different metric system.

MattS seems to suffer from a speech impediment,or arthritic fingers

What was that insult aimed at eric?

Speech impediment April 9 2004, 6:38 AM


MattS seems to suffer from a speech impediment,or arthritic fingers

I can only say, I rest my case. Hallelujah!

Still not sure what your name-calling is meant to be proving?

Unless you are just trying to get your "hell" to go above my "paradise" on the list of threads in this section!!!!

LOL!

That's ok Steve, I have no clue what he's going on about either. Probably the usual rubbish.

? April 15 2004, 6:00 PM


That's ok Steve, I have no clue what he's going on about either. Probably the usual rubbish.


That doesnt anwer my questions. Never mind,I knew you would be stumped.
Well, I can only repeat, I rest my case. Amen, hallelujah.

...strange little old man!

Look at the post times of individuals.

How many musicians can only avail themselves of a computer to post messages at such early times?

Curriculum ? April 5 2004, 6:46 AM


Illiterate? April 2 2004, 1:52 PM

"For your edification, collective ignorance referred to metric illiterates like you"

For your information, it's impossible to have a degree in engineering and be a metric illiterate. I have a B.S. in Civil Engineering from the University of Maryland, at College Park. In school we used a healthy balence of metric measures and customary ones. I understand customary measures and metric ones or I couldn't be a qualified engineer. It's impossible to get through school otherwise.

Re-reading that post, I couldn't help but notice the Freudian slip in MattS' answer.
"In school we used a healthy "balence" of metric measures and customary ones". A healthy BALENCE indeed if ever there was one!

Curriculum ? April 5 2004, 6:46 AM


Illiterate? April 2 2004, 1:52 PM

"For your edification, collective ignorance referred to metric illiterates like you"

MattS:
For your information, it's impossible to have a degree in engineering and be a metric illiterate. I have a B.S. in Civil Engineering from the University of Maryland, at College Park. I understand customary measures and metric ones or I couldn't be a qualified engineer. It's impossible to get through school otherwise.

In school we used a healthy "BALENCE" of metric measures and customary ones.

metre:
That seems to be a Freudian slip if ever there was one. Thanks MattS

I posted a similar post yesterday and it dissapeared? Any explanation BWMA?

To the BWMA moderator.
Would you kindly explain why my last 2 messages are not posted? Thank you, metre

I expect that we've missed out big time

Explanation April 22 2004, 6:16 AM


To the BWMA moderator.
Would you kindly explain why my last 2 messages are not posted? Thank you, metre

Any problems with an answer?

I live in the US and this is my opinion. The Irish still teach Gaelic in schools, and from what I heard still use it to some extent. What is the problem with Canada doing the same with their customary system of measure then? Imperial is part of their culture and way of life. Furthermore from my experience inches are just as good as centimeters. I don't see why some certian other countries have a problem with the US and to some extent Canada and Britian using their own tradional systems of measure.

"I don't see why some certian other countries have a problem with the US and to some extent Canada and Britian using their own tradional systems of measure"

You are forgetting the "enemy within".
Ordinary people from other countries don't have a problem with the UK using UK measures.
In fact they, as tourists, come to expect it!

Measurement hell? April 23 2004, 6:18 AM


I live in the US and this is my opinion. The Irish still teach Gaelic in schools, and from what I heard still use it to some extent. What is the problem with Canada doing the same with their customary system of measure then? Imperial is part of their culture and way of life. Furthermore from my experience inches are just as good as centimeters. I don't see why some certian other countries have a problem with the US and to some extent Canada and Britian using their own tradional systems of measure.


metre:
Metric countries don't give a toss what measurements you use, as long as you keep them within your borders. What metric countries don't like are lousy imperial spanners in their neat system. As a matter of fact it is to their advantage if you stick with antiquated units, b/c you can't compete with them in their own and world markets. Maybe that helps to explain your astronomical trade deficit.

Problems? April 23 2004, 5:58 AM


Explanation April 22 2004, 6:16 AM


To the BWMA moderator.
Would you kindly explain why my last 2 messages are not posted? Thank you, metre

Any problems with an answer?



Without an explanation the vanishing of posts smacks of censorship.

<<<<There are two "official" grid systems used in the US. NAD27 and NAD83. Both are used. These stand for North American Datum 1927, and North American Datum 1983. These are set up by each state which picks its global origin and aligns it to the national datum set by the USGS.

NAD27 is exclusively in US Survey feet. When the NAD83 was created, each state was given the choice which unit would be used: survey feet, international feet, meters. Some states made distinct choices while others defaulted to survey feet.

However, the USGS maintains their grids in US Survey Feet. They publish "7.5 Minute Quadrangle" maps on the NAD27 datum. All official surveys done by the US Government, I believe are done in US Survey Feet. One should also note that fundamental survey units, such as rods/polls/perches, chains, miles, acres, sections, and townships are defined in terms of the US Survey Foot. >>>>

You are correct on NAD27 geodesy. In fact, all NAD83 geodesy was done exclusively in meters by USGS. However, the states have the option of using meters or requesting a copy of geodetic control points converted to either International feet or Survey feet (there is a mixed mess of what they asked for). Modern surveying practice is in meters. However, a great deal of existing information is in Survey feet and will not get redone until the land is involved in a project that warrants resurvey. (USGS has a list on their website of what each state chose for the their geodetic control points, which then governs their state plane coordinates)

Like nearly everything else, we are caught in this hell where "metric is the preferred measurement system of the United States" and the Federal government is under Executive order to go metric, but is prohibited by law from forcing anyone else (the States) to. While the details are different, this is essentially the same mess that Canada and the UK are in, a maze of conflicting laws, apathy, and some strong opposition that prevents meaningful motion in either direction.

As long as Canada's largest trading partner, tourist destination and entertainment source refuses to go metric, neither can Canada.

Oh well what a pity never mind [shrugs]

Excellent article. Good example, Metre. Just goes to show you how much trouble metric conversion can be when the political will is lacking to see it through to the end. I'm as happy as hell that the Canadian experience was never allowed to happen south of the equator. Governments are elected to govern, and if they falter and waver on a decision they have made in the national interest to appease some sections of the electorate, then they don't deserve the mandate to govern.

Re: Measurement hell. April 23 2005, 1:16 AM

Anonymous
<<<<There are two "official" grid systems used in the US. NAD27 and NAD83. Both are used. These stand for North American Datum 1927, and North American Datum 1983. These are set up by each state which picks its global origin and aligns it to the national datum set by the USGS.

metre
I missed that excellent post and never thanked that guy for his prodigious effort. Thanks whoever you are and thanks Rip for drawing it to my attention.

And thanks, Tesco, for making a fine selection of buckets.

<<metre
I missed that excellent post and never thanked that guy for his prodigious effort. Thanks whoever you are and thanks Rip for drawing it to my attention. >>

That was me. Not trying to be anonymous, just forgot to fill in the stupid box. On most other forums, it is filled in automatically if you are signed in (and you can't post if you're not). I seem to forget a lot.

It should have filled it in for you, after the initial post.

It auto-fills if I type a letter or two, but it doesn't fill in completely automatically. On the other hand, my email does and I have to erase it. Computers, go figure.