Bud posted this on the 'Metric Transport Signs' Forum:-

"In India, which I visit fairly frequently, the Imperial system (along with the English language) is seen as a symbol of status. Whereas the lower class speak local languages, the elite take pride in speaking English. The same goes for units of measurement. I would be hard pressed to explain to them why some people consider the imperial system to be outdated"

"""I would be hard pressed to explain to them why some people consider the imperial system to be outdated""""


I was to India in 1996. I visited Delhi, Ghaziabad, Hyderabad, Vishakhapatnam and mumbai.

Everything I came in contact with was metric. That doesn't me some obscure machine from the British era in imperial does not exist. Some countries like india, which are very poor take a longer time to modernise. India is in a state of modernisation and as they do modernise they will metricate to completion.

Every other country that was part of the British empire has gone through a similar cycle. They metricate as part of modernising and consider metric a part of the new technology and new way of life. Imperial is something from the past, something colonial and something to be discarded.

Even though it takes longer for some to metricate, rest assured the trend is towards, not away from full metrication. Like China, the new industries being built are using metric and pumping out metric products for the whole world. Get use to it!

re (Erin GoBragh): "Everything I came in contact with was metric..."



REPLY: Like these teas?

Black Teas

Almond Tea: "Eager Naturalist" - using the finest black teas flavored with almond slivers and essence creates a delicate yet long lasting flavor.

1 ounce: 1/4 pound: 1/2 pound: 1 pound:


Ceylon BOP: "Eager Naturalist" - much of the tea is grown at high altitudes of up to 5,000 feet, in such famous areas as Nuwara Eliya, Dimbula, Kandy and Uva.

This is an "orthodox tea", meaning that the leaves remain in relatively large pieces. BOP means "Broken Orange Pekoe", the most sought-after grade of Ceylon teas. Ceylon BOP is selected carefully to be a well-balanced tea, appropriate at any time of day or occasion.

1 ounce: 1/4 pound: 1/2 pound: 1 pound:


Chai Blend: "Eager Naturalist" - Chai in India is a spiced and creamy tea. The western world has recently discovered the wonders of Indian Chai and have turned them into wonderful gourmet drinks that can be served hot or cold. It has been around over two thousand years, it originates from the birthplace of teas, China. In China it is used as a relaxing and healing beverage, one sips a very sweet and hot tea in exceeding one hundred degrees and amazingly feels refreshed.

Chai Blend is made with a blend of the world's finest quality spices; stone-ground cardamom, ginger, cinnamon, and Madascar vanilla bean. This carefully selected combination of ingredients creates a rich yet smooth taste sensation that is perfect any time of the day. It is a great early morning drink to get you off to a quick start or in the afternoon when you need something to get you through the day but don't want that second cup of coffee. Chai Blend produces a warm, soothing effect, acts as a natural digestive aid and gives one a wonderful sense of well being.

1 ounce: 1/4 pound: 1/2 pound: 1 pound:

China Black: "Eager Naturalist" - Chinese black teas are various shades of red. A spectrum of color ranging from sparkling coppery tints to the more intense burgundies. The teas are normally accompanied by floral & fruity flavors. Almost always mellow with moderate astringency & "full" on the palate.

1 ounce: 1/4 pound: 1/2 pound: 1 pound:


Darjeeling:

1 ounce: 1/4 pound: 1/2 pound: 1 pound:


Earl Grey:

1 ounce: 1/4 pound: 1/2 pound: 1 pound:



Earl Grey Decaffeinated:

1 ounce: 1/4 pound: 1/2 pound: 1 pound:



English Breakfast:

1 ounce: 1/4 pound: 1/2 pound: 1 pound:



Irish Breakfast:

1 ounce: 1/4 pound: 1/2 pound: 1 pound:


Jamaican Rum:

1 ounce: 1/4 pound: 1/2 pound: 1 pound:


Vanilla:

1 ounce: 1/4 pound: 1/2 pound: 1 pound:


Vanilla Rum:

1 ounce: 1/4 pound: 1/2 pound: 1 pound:



Sales and General Information: thevelvetrose@hotmail.com

Try these web sites:

http://www.tealuxe.com/ourteas/master/master_main.shtml

http://www.imperialteagarden.com/Darjeeling.html

http://www.imperialteagarden.com/Bukhial.html

http://www.virtualtea.com/vt/teasblack.html



There are more, but you get the point.

Keep looking for those remnant uses of FFU. As time progresses they are being phased out. The movement is towards complete metrication, not away from it!

In the US, Twining offers some of those varieties imported from UK, but only in 40 g or 50 g packs (of 20 or 25 teabags) or 100 g tins of loose tea.

They offered 4 oz tins for some time after the UK changed over, perhaps to use them up, but only 100 g tins are available now.

US specialty tea shops may be in grams , ounces, or pounds.

<<Sales and General Information: thevelvetrose@hotmail.com>>

So, isn't this a trifle disingenuous to use a tea shop in the US (about 20 miles from me in fact) to prove that India, not the US, uses Customary units?
Their website with location: http://www.velvetroseteahouse.com/

(I hope we don't have to rename 31 Mile Rd "49.88 Kilometer Rd" when we finally go metric. Would 50 Kilometer Rd be OK?)

"""(I hope we don't have to rename 31 Mile Rd "49.88 Kilometer Rd" when we finally go metric. Would 50 Kilometer Rd be OK?)"""


That would be more logical. But why not do what everyone else does, just call such a street North 50-th Avenue or some name that is independent of a distance.

BTW, I'm familiar with Detroit's use of mile names for streets running north of the city.


Oh, can you tell us what car company you do work for?

"""So, isn't this a trifle disingenuous to use a tea shop in the US (about 20 miles from me in fact) to prove that India, not the US, uses Customary units?

Their website with location: http://www.velvetroseteahouse.com/"""


Just a another example of Tony's deceptions. I'm sure they buy the stuff in bulk (in metric sizes) and portion it out in FFU. You are right in your assertation that Tony chose an American site. Why didn't he give an example from a British site?

3 guesses everyone!!!!

My first and only guess is that there are no shops in the UK selling tea in ounces, only grams. If there were, Tony would have jumped on the opportunity to show that there are products still sold in FFU in the UK.


Tony,

Provide us with proof that tea sold in India is in imperial. No deceptions this time.

<<<BTW, I'm familiar with Detroit's use of mile names for streets running north of the city.


Oh, can you tell us what car company you do work for? >>>

These are very historical names to us. They go back to the original surveying of Michigan into townships and sections. Many of these roads were named from 1830-1870. The roads are on roughly 1 mile grid, not 1.0000 miles as xcole would claim, and in my area, have to deviate around lakes etc. However, the one mile interval is pretty accurate unless there is a good physical reason to deviate.

I'm retired now, but I think the company would still prefer not to be named. You have at least a 33% chance of guesing correctly.

Yes, my choices would be Ford, General Motors, or Daimler-Chrysler.

One thing of further interest, would be the effect of metrication of the auto industry on both the after market of parts and the servicing of cars, especially by independant service garages. I'm sure the metrication of car parts created a big business for tool companies needed to provide metric tools and fastener companies needed to produce metric fasteners.

When I do go to an auto parts store I'm puzzeled to see the fastener section has more inch fasteners then metric. I keep wondering who would buy these? Unless the store expects people to buy them thinking their American cars are inch based, only to find the fastener doesn't fit (an 1/2-13 won't thread into an M12 hole, but it might look like it would). They try to return the part, but the store won't take back the fastener for liability reasons and ends up selling the customer the correct part after it is explained that newer cars since the '70s are metric. Thus the store makes a double sale.

What do you think?

<<Why didn't he give an example from a British site?>>

I imagine he buys all his tea there. Surely, you are aware of Michigan's world-wide reputation as a purveyor of fine specialty teas. We also stand ready to export coals to Newcastle. :)

On auto parts stores, I don't really know. Our parts & service division offeres genuine factory repair parts not only to dealers but to independent mechanics and parts stores. However, the latter groups usually use third part parts due to price.

On the fasteners, if a bolt goes into a tapped hole, it has to match. If a bolt and nut are used to mount something in through holes, it only has to go through, and the bolt and nut have to match.

Also many of our "real" fasteners are Torx head or other speed drive types and do-it-yourselfers may not have the proper tools. But I don't know, I rarely use auto parts stores.

re (Erin GoBragh): "The movement is towards complete metrication, not away from it!"


REPLY: Not on British roads, it isn't

"""re (Erin GoBragh): "The movement is towards complete metrication, not away from it!"


REPLY: Not on British roads, it isn't""""


Actually, there is movement towards metrication on British roads. Many communities have erected metric signs. Just because you have moved to remove such signs does not stop the fact that such a movement exists. Even if there is no movement, then there still is no reversal, there is only status quo for the time being. Eventually the laws will be modified first to allow metric signs on roads, then to replace the imperial with metric.

Ireland did it and was successful, so will the UK be.

You seem to be fond of picking remnant examples, not real examnples that show a reversal. Like if petrol sales would return to gallons from litres, or shops that did go metric would return to pounds.

Where you do see FFU still lingering is always along with a true metric description. There are many examples where metric exists withot FFU tagging along.

You need to wake up and smell the coffee. Even coffee is sold in metric sizes in the UK.

re (Erin GoBragh): "You need to wake up and smell the coffee..."


REPLY: I did, that's why we began our campaign to prevent the authorities erecting any more illegal road signs.

Now the authorities have smelt *our* coffee.

Take a walk around Lee Valley Park sometime. A few years ago, they were putting up all their foorpath signs in kilometres. All the new ones erected in the last two years are only in miles

Erin GoBragh - on the subject of reversion to Imperial, have you not seen this article by Frank Hatton, which begins...



"I was recently reading, in my newspaper, that quite a number of the states in the U.S.of A. have voted against metrication*(1). In fact some, who have already had the road signs marked in kilometres, have now pulled them down, and reverted to miles... my best wishes...ardent admiration,...congratulations,...and heartfelt thanks go to each and every one of you who have participated in this very wise decision. It is about time that somebody dug their heels in*(2), and said a resounding 'NO' to the insidious advance of this alien system of measurement. Those of you who have been reading this column for some while will possibly recall that I have protested long and hard on the subject of how our very society has been changed over recent years. Our inches, feet and yards, have been...*



* NOTE: Hey! How about that! It's called D-E-M-O-C-R-A-C-Y.

* NOTE: It appears that this article by Frank may have been written before the foundation of the Council of Active Resistance to Metrication

Erin GoBragh - on the subject of reversion to Imperial, have you not seen this article by Frank Hatton, which begins...



""""I was recently reading, in my newspaper, that quite a number of the states in the U.S.of A. have voted against metrication*(1)."""

There was a vote on metrication in the US? Really, when was this? JohnS of Michigan, was it on your ballot? I didn't see it on mine. I'd sure like to know who voted and when.

As for voting, I vote every day in the factory and office each time I spec a metric part and each time a metric product ships. i have the feeling my vote carries a lot more weight then Frank Hatton's vote.

"""In fact some, who have already had the road signs marked in kilometres, have now pulled them down, and reverted to miles... my best wishes...ardent admiration,...congratulations,...and heartfelt thanks go to each and every one of you who have participated in this very wise decision. It is about time that somebody dug their heels in*(2), and said a resounding 'NO' to the insidious advance of this alien system of measurement. Those of you who have been reading this column for some while will possibly recall that I have protested long and hard on the subject of how our very society has been changed over recent years. Our inches, feet and yards, have been...*"""

So this guy is all goose-pimply about a few roads signs in metric that are no longer there. Wow! Now, does he feel this shot of joy while he is driving down the freeway in his 30 k$ + SUV or any other vehicle, designed and made 100 % metric? I'd like to see the look on his face if he ever has to repair his own vehicle and finds out it was built in an "alien" system, and that he PAID for it too.

Then again, maybe Frank is Amish and rides around in a horse and buggy.

I doubt he does much shopping in the local grocery store either, so he doesn't notice the increase in metric sized products. Or he isn't aware of the metric products being imported into the US that eventually end up in his own home.

And then there are people like me who work for companies that produce industrial goods in metric with metric parts. We help create a demand for metric and keep the cost of metric parts low. We help force the end user to metricate as well by having a stock of metric parts on hand for servicing, not to mention metric tools.

People like you or Frank Hatton wouldn't be whining about metric if it didn't smack them in the face every day.



* NOTE: Hey! How about that! It's called D-E-M-O-C-R-A-C-Y.

Yep, those of us who work in industry als have a right to chose and many of us have chosen metric.


* NOTE: It appears that this article by Frank may have been written before the foundation of the Council of Active Resistance to Metrication

I see, you you are posting old, dated material. As usual, nothing up-to-date.



JohnS of Michigan, do you have any comment on this post?

<<JohnS of Michigan, do you have any comment on this post?>>

I was trying to ignore the victory dance.

Sadly, it is true that as soon as the FHWA lifted the metric requirement, most state DOTs went back to inch-pound road construction. I think the industry would have been better off if it converted and designed and built metric roads. In general, the US construction industry is among the last to convert.

For the time being, that conversion of industry is a lot more important than signage. Miles or kilometers doesn't really matter as much except for confusion at the border when we go to Mexico or Canada. There wasn't much metric signage to begin with. Unlike the Brits, at least we haven't made our preferred measurement system ILLEGAL for roads. The Federal government has given metric signage fully equal status in the latest MUTCD. Unfortunately, the states get to choose which system they will use. But for the time being, I'd gladly trade English signs fir metric road construction.

There's some updated info in the two related threads on California DOT, and US speed laws.

re (John from Michigan): "For the time being, that conversion of industry is a lot more important than signage. Miles or kilometers doesn't really matter as much except for confusion at the border when we go to Mexico or Canada. There wasn't much metric signage to begin with. Unlike the Brits, at least we haven't made our preferred measurement system ILLEGAL for roads. The Federal government has given metric signage fully equal status in the latest MUTCD. Unfortunately, the states get to choose which system they will use....


REPLY: What a scandal! What a disgrace! At least, allowing nations discretion over things like that doesn't happen in Europe, I'm glad to say, though they are allowed so-called 'derogations'.

It's the derogations over things like 'mile' and 'pint' that have held up progress in Britain for far too long.

The statistics show just how far metric countries are ahead:

Britain - a pathetic 1.5 million unemployed.

France - 3 million.

Germany - 5 million.

How much further behind are we going to fall?


'Disgusted', Newport Pagnell Service Station

"Get us half a pint of draught Guinness, would you, love. How many miles is it now to Betws-y-Coed?"

Tony Bennett wrote

<<
"Couple of ounces of Darjeeling Tea, Please" May 1 2005, 3:25 PM


re (Erin GoBragh): "Everything I came in contact with was metric..."



REPLY: Like these teas?

Black Teas

Almond Tea: "Eager Naturalist" - using the finest black teas flavored with almond slivers and essence creates a delicate yet long lasting flavor.

1 ounce: 1/4 pound: 1/2 pound: 1 pound:


[... snip - martin]

Vanilla Rum:

1 ounce: 1/4 pound: 1/2 pound: 1 pound:



Sales and General Information: thevelvetrose@hotmail.com
>>

What sort of monkey outfit is this? - they don't have a web site and the only way in whicn they can be contacted is via a hot-mail address.

Erin,

When you say you visted India, which web-site would that have been?

Tony said

"Ceylon BOP: "Eager Naturalist" - much of the tea is grown at high altitudes of up to 5,000 feet, in such famous areas as Nuwara Eliya, Dimbula, Kandy and Uva."

Tony, Ceylon is the old name for Sri Lanka. It is not part of India.

I've been to Kandy & Dambulla (not Dimbulla) Tea was sold in metric quantities.

Perhaps you missed this from my post above.
They do indeed have a website.
They are located about 20 miles from me :)

"Their website with location: http://www.velvetroseteahouse.com/"

http://www.keellssuper.com/Contents/Products/ProductsList.asp?From=1&FR=1&MainCode=GR&SubACode=BV&SubBCode=E7

The above is a link to one of the many "tea" pages on a Sri Lankan supermarket website. Where is the imperial?

Wow, what do you know. This whole conversation was going on in response to something I originally posted, and I didn't even realise it.
I should check the international board more often.

"""The same goes for units of measurement. I would be hard pressed to explain to them why some people consider the imperial system to be outdated"""

I highly doubt the people of India see imperial as a status symbol. When I was there no one used imperial in my presence. When measurements were used it was always metric.

However, they did use the term literate and illiterate not to describe those who could or could not read and write, but those who could or could not speak English. If they thought Imperial was a status symbol, they would use it instead of metric.

Metric is the status symbol. It is the system that moves a country from the third to the first world. It is the system that is not colonial, as imperial is. The status symbol inference is yours, not theirs.

John Si-M wrote

<<
Perhaps you missed this from my post above.
They do indeed have a website.
They are located about 20 miles from me :)

"Their website with location: http://www.velvetroseteahouse.com/"
>>

I visited their website - it appears to have been written by Americans for Americans so one must call into question whether or not this is an indication of the use of metric/imperial in India.

Duh, that's 'cause it's IN America, as I pointed out.
But due to our international reputation as purveyos of fine teas, I'm sure Tony buys all his tea there. (Are my sad attempts at humor THAT obtuse?)

Yes, it mostly proves the US uses US Customary measure. Assuming they package from bulk in the store, they are exempt from FPLA requirement of dual labelling. Had it been shipped from India (or anywhere) prepackaged in those weights, dual labelling would have been mandatory, but that would disprove Tony's point.

Erin,

When you say you visted India, which web-site would that have been?

<<
Metric is the status symbol. It is the system that moves a country from the third to the first world. It is the system that is not colonial, as imperial is. The status symbol inference is yours, not theirs.
>>

The US and UK are such backward third world countries. Ahhh. I should move to Zimbabwe or Mongolia in search of a better life.

Bud see other references he makes on other posts praising dictatorships and tyrrany for "getting the [metric] job done"

If he were voting in GB today even the British Communists and BNP would distance themselves from him!!!