Apparently some pumps can't display prices over $3.00/gallon. (Note: the ones in my area sure can). But this would have been a good time to introduce liter pricing, which is apparently allowed in South Dakota. Instead, they are allowed to temporarily modify the pumps to sell in half-gallons, within their limited price range, because, well, half gallons are easier than liters. LOL.

http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/news/12574261.htm
<<Gas pumps may display half prices

JOE KAFKA

Associated Press


PIERRE, S.D. - Coming soon to a gasoline pump near you: half prices.

No, it doesn't mean you'll be filling up for less in these times of skyrocketing fuel costs.

It just means the price of the gas you buy can be listed by the half gallon instead of the gallon.

Gov. Mike Rounds announced Tuesday that an emergency state rule is now in effect allowing half-gallon pricing on mechanical pumps that cannot display the correct amounts when fuel prices exceed $2.99 a gallon.

The 90-day rule trumps an existing state requirement that gasoline pumps either display the price per gallon or price per liter of fuel that is dispensed.

"We are going to allow South Dakota gas station owners to post half-gallon prices on their pumps rather than to shut down their stations or to sell liters of gas," Rounds said.

"Pricing half gallons will be easier for the station owners and the consumers," he said. "Most South Dakotans are more familiar with the English system rather than the metric system and seem more comfortable with a half-gallon cost comparison."

The emergency rule requires older mechanical pumps incapable of displaying the price per gallon or per liter to be upgraded. However, if proof is provided to the Public Safety Department that the appropriate equipment has been ordered, pumps may temporarily show the price per half gallon.

The pumps must conspicuously display the half-gallon price in one-inch lettering that says: "Multiply total sale price by two."

But signs that display gas prices must continue to do so in gallons.

The state Public Safety Department says older pumps can be converted to display prices higher than $2.99 a gallon, but officials believe demand for the equipment may temporarily exceed the national supply.

"The requirement that gas pumps compute properly at the price per gallon or liter is intended to protect the consumer, and we have no intention of ignoring or eliminating this requirement," said Dave Pfahler, state director of weights and measures.

"We recognize that attempting to enforce immediate compliance in light of potential shortages could present undue hardships on businesses, particularly those smaller, rural establishments still utilizing these older, mechanical pumps. We are allowing stations to price half gallons, so that they do not have to shut down or convert to selling liters of gasoline," he said.

Pfahler said gas station owners will be given a reasonable time to convert older pumps.

"This approach will provide consumer protection while making the cost-comparison easier from gallon to half-gallon," he said.>>

This is quite sensible. Not all pumps in the state would have the capability to display prices per litre, so if some pumps started doing that, then people would have to mentally multiply by 3.78 in order to compare prices from pump to pump. I am sure you will agree that multiplying by 2 is much easier.

Re: Moronic Rule -- Half Gallons of Gasoline September 7 2005, 7:57 AM


This is quite sensible. Not all pumps in the state would have the capability to display prices per litre, so if some pumps started doing that, then people would have to mentally multiply by 3.78 in order to compare prices from pump to pump. I am sure you will agree that multiplying by 2 is much easier.


metre
How come? If every pump displays prices in litres, comparison is even simpler.

Why on earth can't they display over $3.00?

Modern ones with electronic displays certainly can.

I've never been to South Dakota, after reading this, perhaps I never will. There are still a handful of old mechanical pumps around, where physically rotating dials record the amount pumped and the dollar cost. Changing the price is equivalent to changing the gearing between the two dials, I suppose it is reasonable that there is a limit to the possible gear ratios. I remember them, but I haven't actually seen one, even in rural areas, in ages.

In the mid 1980's (when Mrs Thatcher was Prime Minister and the metrication program had ground to a halt), the petrol price in teh UK hit £1.50 a gallon. Knowing that it would go above £2/gallon (which could not be displayed on the pumps), the petroleum industry asked the Governemnt to be allowed to switch to pricing petrol by the litre. For a number of years the litre price and the gallon proice were displayed, but the pumps worked in litres.

Can't they do the same in the US?

PS - the limit of "2" was because many pumps used a 2.5 digit display for the price.

<<Can't they do the same in the US?
>>

Yes, liters are already legal as mentioned in the article. But South Dakotans apparently don't want to use liters. I don't think this problem is very wide-spread. The pumps around my area had no problem indicating prices over $3.00 last week, although price has since dropped a little.

<<
How come? If every pump displays prices in litres, comparison is even simpler.
>>

I clearly mentioned in my post that many (probably most) pumps in the US do not have the capability to display prices in litres. Of course, you very conveniently overlooked that information.


BTW, I have never seen a non-digital petrol pump in the US.

Bud wrote

<<
I clearly mentioned in my post that many (probably most) pumps in the US do not have the capability to display prices in litres. Of course, you very conveniently overlooked that information.
>>

If US pumps were made the same way that the UK pumps were made in the 1980's, all that would be needed would be the flicking of a switch inside the pump and a new coverplate for the display area.

...for no apparent safety or economic reason, or demand.

Re: Moronic Rule -- Half Gallons of Gasoline September 7 2005, 7:57 AM

Bud
This is quite sensible. Not all pumps in the state would have the capability to display prices per litre, so if some pumps started doing that, then people would have to mentally multiply by 3.78 in order to compare prices from pump to pump. I am sure you will agree that multiplying by 2 is much easier.
Bud
I clearly mentioned in my post that many (probably most) pumps in the US do not have the capability to display prices in litres. Of course, you very conveniently overlooked that information.

metre
Now compare your almost categorical statement in this post to your earlier one. It can be safely said that I interpreted your information correctly.

"I clearly mentioned in my post that many (probably most) pumps in the US do not have the capability to display prices in litres. Of course, you very conveniently overlooked that information. "



All of the modern digital ones do have litre capability. In fact the machine itself thinks in litres, and does a conversion to gallons if the gallon mode is selected via the operators console. The majority are of this type.

Should a requirement to switch to litres ever happen, the switch would be almost cost free. It would involve selecting the litre mode and affixing a label with the word LITRES over the word GALLONS on the pumps themsleves.

Something you conveniently overlooked yourself.

<<All of the modern digital ones do have litre capability. In fact the machine itself thinks in litres, and does a conversion to gallons if the gallon mode is selected via the operators console. The majority are of this type.
>>

This can be conveniently overlooked as this is what Daniel hopes is the case.

He will have no experience of the petrol pump industry but is a dab hand at typing this:

"www.google.com"

Someone should frame his stuff!

Pennsylvania has taken exactly the same action with respect to old, mechanical pumps that can not handle prices over $3/gallon.

I don't really know whether a mechanical pump with this problem would be able to handle liter pricing. I didn't find info from all 50 states on the web, but those that have their laws posted ALL allow pricing by either the gallon or liter. (At least one required a price per gallon to be posted too, if they dispensed in liters, but most did not. We could go completely metric, but the government doesn't want to force people to.)

http://www.wreg.com/global/story.asp?s=3813019
<<Governor Edward G. Rendell said today that since the price of gas has exceeded $3 a gallon, drivers may notice that some gas stations with older pumps will temporarily be selling gasoline by the half gallon because the fuel dispensers cannot compute prices exceeding $2.99.
"The signs out front will still advertise the price for a full gallon of gas, but when drivers pull up to the pump, they might notice the pump price is half the advertised price," Governor Rendell said. "Most retail gas stations in Pennsylvania can display per-gallon prices over $3, but we need to accommodate those that cannot.">>

The price is now back to $2.70 or so in California, which has the highest average prices in the nation. I think this problem has passed and won't come back for a while.

Anyway, remember that just because a state allows pricing to be in either litres or gallons doesn't mean that pumps are required to be capable of doing both. I'm not sure if most pumps in the US would be capable of switching to litres, but I do know that gasoline is measured in gallons at every step of the way, from the refinery to the warehouse to the distributor to the pump.

Bud wrote

<<
I'm not sure if most pumps in the US would be capable of switching to litres,
>>

In practice, you will find that even in the US there are only a few petrol pump manufacturers and tghey will also supply Canada and probably Mexico. Likewise, I suspect (though of course I am open to correction), any Canadian manufacturer will compete head-on with a US manufacturer in both the Canadian and US markets. To simoplify manufacture, they will probably mount a DIL (Dual-in-line) switch on one of the PC boards inside the pump to switch it between lites, US gallons and Imperial gallons - that would be cheaper than running separate production lines. The glass panel would be in English only (US)/ English and French (Canada) or Spanish (Mexico).

It would thus be possible for a technician to convert a US-style pump in US gallons to a Mexican pump in litres in a few minutes.

Martin, I think you are right that Canada and US form one competition area for companies. But I don't see why they would mount a DIL in every single pump. The American and Canadian markets are probably each big enough that running separate lines would not be too costly (we have only a few countries, not a dozen like Europe). I don't think it would be feasible for a company to produce all its pumps for the US and Canada at one facility. And even if they did, only a few steps of the production line would have to be different, not the entire line.

I don't think languages would pose any problem at all. I have seen pumps that don't even specify the word "gallons", since it is understood. But there are four combinations: English/US gallons for the US, English/litres for Canada minus Quebec, French/litres for Quebec, and Spanish/litres for Mexico and Central America.

<<But there are four combinations: English/US gallons for the US, English/litres for Canada minus Quebec, French/litres for Quebec, and Spanish/litres for Mexico and Central America.
>>

Canada is official bilingual, except for Quebec which is French dominant. So all provinces other than Quebec would require dual language, English/French, just as on their food labels. Quebec would require the French, I honestly don't know whether they would forbid, allow, or require the English. In most cases, English is restricted and must AT LEAST be less prominent than the French. It is not on equal footing.

I think the switch would be there as manufacturers realize the US will eventually go metric. The switch, or a jumper that can be removed is a REALLY CHEAP way to activate features that are in the software anyway. The software counts pulses that are neither liters nor gallons, but a certain number of pulses, and probably over 1000 per gallon as we display "milligallons" It is easy to put in the provision to divide the count by two different constants for display purposes (Automotive does this for miles and kilometer clusters; I can't believe we are unique in doing so)

Electronic gas pumps are made with the same components for the whole world. They primarily "think" in litres and only convert to US gallons if the software (no hardware switches or jumpers) is set to a different code.

Whatever means the machine uses to measure flow, it is done in litres and software converted to gallons US. There is no provision for gallons UK or any other unit as only litres are used as the standard for all the world and gallons US for the US only. The software provision for displaying in gallons US may be removed from pumps sold outside the US. No need for it to be there if it will never be used.

Gallons is not the default, litres is. Gallons is an afterthought.

Bud wrote

<<
The American and Canadian markets are probably each big enough that running separate lines would not be too costly (we have only a few countries, not a dozen like Europe).
>>

I bought a digital thermometer and digital bathroom scales when I was working in Germany. The thermometer has a C/F switch and the bathroom scales a kg/st-lb switch. Obviously the same product lines were sold i nboth Germany and in the UK.

Daniel said

"All of the modern digital ones do have litre capability. In fact the machine itself thinks in litres, and does a conversion to gallons if the gallon mode is selected via the operators console. The majority are of this type.

Should a requirement to switch to litres ever happen, the switch would be almost cost free. It would involve selecting the litre mode and affixing a label with the word LITRES over the word GALLONS on the pumps themsleves."

I have never seen such a switch on any petrol pump in the UK. When the UK changed from gallons to litres in October 1995, the pump fitters had to convert every pump in the country, and the TSO's had to reverify & reseal each and every one of them. The current reverification fee for a single pump is around £87.

It is immaterial whether the pump display is electronic or mechanical. The actual meter within the pump is practically always mechanical and (as John correctly states above) sends electronic pulses as the petrol passes through it.

These pulses are not imperial or metric - they are just a number. The software is programmed to recognise that a certain number of pulses equals a litre or a gallon.

Adjustment & calibration is managed by adjusting the physical size of the cylinder capacity within the meter - if the measured amount is smaller, the pulses will be sent more quickly and vice versa.

Daniel's assertion that the pumps think in litres & display a conversion figure in gallons is absolute nonsense.

Ooops - I forgot about the Avery Hardoll Mark VI (and similar)!

The adjustment/calibration on that pump is done electronically - not by adjusting the physical size of the cylinder capacity.

But it doesn't "think" in litres or gallons either - like other pumps, it counts pulses from the pulser.

<<I have never seen such a switch on any petrol pump in the UK. When the UK changed from gallons to litres in October 1995, the pump fitters had to convert every pump in the country, and the TSO's had to reverify & reseal each and every one of them. The current reverification fee for a single pump is around £87.>>


I was doing some searching, and the switches are apparently common here. I was hoping to find the "link that explained it all" (never did) instead of fragments here and there. So I didn't record these various links. I'd have to find them again.

However, the NCWM has a type approval process for "retail motor fuel dispensers" (the official name of a gas pump). One of the section on the approval application form is to explain capability fir switching between liters and gallons. "None" is an allowed response, but the form has check boxes for four specific ways (switch, jumper, gear change, IC change), as well as "other" which requires a line or two of explanation.

I found the final type approval for one common pump (recognize it from gas stations) and it uses a switch. A few other ads indicate most cange change from gallons to liters. So the capability seems to generally exist, but it is NOT a 100% requirement. (All the ones I found were modern electronic pumps.)

The only accuracy test I found is based on a 5 gallon prover vessel. In liters-indicating pump, I just assume they use a liters reading that represents 5 gallons. Tolerance for an operating pump in 6 cubic inches in 5 gallons (of 231 cubic inches). For type approval, new installation, or reapproval of a refurbished pump, it is half that. (and temperature corrected by API tables if not at 60 degrees F)

John

Shhhhhhh......

You are telling the whole world that metric pumps are more accurate than imperial.

The UK requirement is that they are accurate to 0.5%. The US requirement is that they are accurate to approx 0.52%.

Shame on you :-) :-) :-)

The actual spec is a little different:
For amounts < 1 gal: 2 cu in
>1 gal: 1 cu in + 1 cu in/gal

So for large orders the "1 for the pot" becomes negligible, and 1 cu in/ gal is 0.433%. But the common prover vessel seems to be the five gallon. I don't know whether larger amounts are checked or how they are checked.

<<Daniel's assertion that the pumps think in litres & display a conversion figure in gallons is absolute nonsense.
>>

I'm looking forward to Danny's next lecture session on stuff he has lieterally no knowledge about.....

John

"However, the NCWM has a type approval process for "retail motor fuel dispensers" (the official name of a gas pump)."

The NWML has a type approval process for "liquid fuel measuring instruments" (the official name of a petrol pump)

:-) :-) :-)

The UK metricated back in October '95. Perhaps the section mentioned in your form was introduced after that date?

Tokheim are the world's biggest pump manufacturers. They supply the whole of Europe from one factory in Scotland. Maybe the switches are not fitted here as there is no need or demand?

The UK verification test is to set the pumps to as near exact measure as possible, but every measure (fast or slow, 2, 5, 10 or 20 litres) must be within the set tolerances.

After that, if it drifts, the full tolerance applies.

Before 1995, TSO's had 1,2,3,4 & 5 gallon measures as well as the metric ones. Similarly, I would suspect that the US equivalent authorities have metric sets too

<<The UK metricated back in October '95. Perhaps the section mentioned in your form was introduced after that date?
>>

I don't know. The page I looked at had no rev. history on it. It was simply the current edition.

However, we and Canada coordinate things pretty closely given that they are metric and we aren't (our duality lets us be "almost metric" when working with them). Also Shell experimented with selling in liters in the 70's. I'm guessing a switch (or one of the other means) is widely available, and has been for some time, in North America.

However, the old mechanical pumps the states are trying to protect with half-gallon sales probably can't switch to metric or need a gear change to do so, just as they do to register price over $3.

The gas station I frequent, the manager showed me how easy it would be to switch to litres. When he enters the maintenance mode from any of the consoles, such as to change prices, he also has a menu option to switch the displays to litres. His pumps don't have a mechanical switch or jumper on a circuit board. His is software selectable.

His pumps though are only about one year old, since he remodeled his station last October.

Nice back-down!

We all know how you love to razz Daniel. :)

However, I think the comment makes a useful point. In general, American business recognizes we will be switching to metric at some point. As they renovate facilities, they will choose flexible equipment that can handle both metric and Customary, provided the price penalty is not excessive. It pays to be prepared. And the manufacturers are looking for ways to incorporate that flexibility at little or no penalty (ie, software).

I buy most of my meat at Costco (a big box retailer in the US, kind of a supermarket, pharmacy, and dept. store under one roof). I notice they have begun dual labeling all meat packages, decimal pounds and kilograms, although that is not required under FPLA. Another recent change, when the natural size of a bottle is in liters, they so state it on the shelf label instead of an awkward conversion to an odd Customary amount.

Certainly a nice step in the right direction.

Your "costco" sounds like our "Tesco" (in all respects!)

P.S. Your Danny comment - I note that he doesn't go near me anymore! "Another one bites the dust" springs to mind. I might get to work on eric (metre) again - his last big fall was magnificent

;-)

P.S. That wasn't gloating!!!

Some guy on this board has some whopper illusions of grandeur

Indeed - he even changed his name from "eric" to "metre" to be "cool with the kids".

He should have done some research first!

:-D

Steve

Costco have UK stores (I know of 2 - Glasgow & Edinburgh, but I've never been to either).

I believe you have to be a member to shop there & they are very inexpensive to shop in.

The reason for this is that they sell in bulk (you have to buy a tray of 24 cans of catfood rather than 1 can etc)

Not really like Tesco at all then!

And when did you last see a DECIMAL pound in Tesco?

<<I believe you have to be a member to shop there & they are very inexpensive to shop in.

The reason for this is that they sell in bulk (you have to buy a tray of 24 cans of catfood rather than 1 can etc)
>>

Spot on, as you might say. There is an annual membership fee and they sell in bulk. Some of what they sell is too big for me to use (large commercial #10 cans) so I avoid those. Others are bundles of smaller cans which I can put in a pantry. Meat is sold in multi-pound packs (~5 lbs and up) which I have to cut up and freeze. They carry top brands, but MUCH less choice than an ordinary market. For cereals, they might have 6 choices, all in 5 lb boxes, but half the price per pound of a supermarket which might have 20 choices.

They have been laggards in admitting metric sizes are metric, but they seem to be accepting it. A few weeks ago, a 20 L jug of vinegar was described as 5.283 gallons on the shelf label. Last time it was described as 20 L. In any case, it would take me 10 years to use that so I didn't buy it.

I love the bargains at Costco, but I buy at least 1/3 my food at a regular market for increased choice, or more reasonable quantities.

<<
And when did you last see a DECIMAL pound in Tesco?
>>

Probably in 1999. Since then their automatic labeling equipment has been in metric units.

Ah yes - I know what you mean now by "Costco".

We have a similar type shop in the S.E. called "makro".

I think you have to be VAT registered or something.

<<
I think you have to be VAT registered or something.
>>

You have to be a bone-fide business. Makro themselves are not too concerned whether you are a bone-dife business or not (as longf as you appear to be), but all prices are excluding VAT (which is permitted for suppliers who deal principally with business users, but is notpermitted for dealers whio deal principally with non-business users).

I had a Makro card for soem years, but the savings were minimal so I did not renew it when it came up for renewal.

My Dad swears by it.

But your comment seals my lack of decision making. ie I won't bother getting a Makro card.

I also had access to a Makro card for a while & would agree with Martin's assessment. Makro are primarily wholesalers to "corner" shops & only just undercut the supermarkets when you add the VAT on.

Costco is open to all - if you pay the membership fee. I have a friend that drives 70 miles to Edinburgh, fills her car with foodstuffs & still saves a fortune (on basics) compared with the Tesco up the road.

But then she goes to Harvey Nicks........

Has anyone ever been in one of those LIDL places? Their ads tend to be fiercely pro-metric but their shops look the sort that would attract the "Asbo Family" - if you get my drift.

<<
Has anyone ever been in one of those LIDL places?
>>

They are very stringon the Continent (they might be German-owned). I think that they are popular with servicemen's families, especially those who have been members of The BAOR.

Ta.

I didn't realise they were german. might explain the odd name i guess.

"They are very stringon the Continent (they might be German-owned). I think that they are popular with servicemen's families, especially those who have been members of The BAOR."

They are definitely German

http://www.verdi.de/handel/einzelhandel/unternehmensinformationen/lidl/hintergrund

Kampf um den letzten Cent

Kein anderes europäisches Handelsunternehmen expandiert so aggressiv: Die Schwarz-Gruppe des Dieter Schwarz mit Sitz in Neckarsulm, Baden-Württemberg, (Kaufland, Kaufmarkt, Handelshof, LiDL) betreibt über 6000 Filialen in 20 europäischen Ländern. Mit einer Zuwachsrate von 44 Prozent in den letzten drei Jahren auf 36 Milliarden Euro Umsatz (LZ vom 10. Mai 2005) schlägt der Konzern mit insgesamt rund 166.000 Beschäftigten auf Kosten von Beschäftigten und vielen anderen alle Konkurrenten aus dem Feld. Der Erfolg ist rasant: Im Ranking der deutschen Top-Unternehmen steht der Konzern mit Rekordergebnissen bereits auf Platz 14 (SZ vom 22. Juli 2005). Expansionsmotor ist die Billig-Kette LiDL.