A frequent visitor to Turkey tells me that the restaurants out there routinely advertise 8oz., 12oz., 16.oz, even 22oz. steaks. Not 'completely metric', then...

Imperial in Turkey
September 10 2005 at 9:50 AM Tony Bennett

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TB
A frequent visitor to Turkey tells me that the restaurants out there routinely advertise 8oz., 12oz., 16.oz, even 22oz. steaks. Not 'completely metric', then...


Metre
You would do well to understand that poor countries do cater for tourists/business people any way they can. Your example sounds like a person frequently visiting Turkey found a place that caters for people who only understand medieval units. Nothing wrong with that, the restaurant makes money and Turkey stays metric.

The question someone should be asking is how do they weigh those steaks? Since they don't have ounce scales in Turkey they all have to be weighed on a metric scale. The ounce names like elsewhere are no doubt trade names and don't reflect an actual size. It seems a lot of those tourist might be getting cheated, but are happy because all that need be done is have the word ounce spoken or written. Accuracy is not important.

On a visit to any area of Spain noted for its villas that are owned by foreigners (mainly British and German), I noticed that some restaurants catered for German visitors/residents and others for British visitiors/residents. The Internet cafe (which catered for everyboy) was run by a Dutch couple.

Re: Imperial in Turkey September 10 2005, 4:22 PM

DJ
The question someone should be asking is how do they weigh those steaks? Since they don't have ounce scales in Turkey they all have to be weighed on a metric scale. The ounce names like elsewhere are no doubt trade names and don't reflect an actual size. It seems a lot of those tourist might be getting cheated, but are happy because all that need be done is have the word ounce spoken or written. Accuracy is not important.


metr
You are right,what an easy way to to fleece suckers. How would anybody know what weight of steak they get. You can't blame restaurants in poor countries taking advantage of people that cannot adapt.

It would be interesting to know how honestly these steaks are weighed as I imagine that the Turkish weights & measures activity gives little priority to enforcing English weights they don't understand. Of course, as long as they say the magic word "ounces," those who prefer imperial don't care.

Seriously, Tony, I would imagine the potential for being cheated on weight is much higher. Enjoy your 350 g, "16 oz steak."

Another thing to consider is how many Turks eat stakes? I don't think beef is part of the Turkish diet. The meat may be imported pre-cut and packaged from a US source for US tourists or business people in restaurants that serve these types of tourists. The restaurant may never even weigh it. They just remove it from the package, cook it and serve it. If you asked them what the ounce represents, they wouldn't know.

I meant steaks, not stakes.

<<<A frequent visitor to Turkey tells me that the restaurants out there routinely advertise 8oz., 12oz., 16.oz, even 22oz. steaks. Not 'completely metric', then...>>>

LOL you really are clutching at straws now!

Let me get this right.

Danny thinks that more US tourists visit Turkey than UK tourists?

LOL!

"Desperation" !


Ooh, by the way - they don't eat Steak too, apparently!

ROTFL

P.S. Anywhere the Brits go you'll find imperial-food (qtr pounds etc). Ibiza is a classic case.

They're pobably just over 453 grammes or something but to be honest I've yet to see someone take their cooked steak and weigh it on a pair of miniscales (having deducted the fat and water lost during cooking) and then complained bitterly that they go an ounce too much/too little etc.

Maybe this sort of thing happens in Danny World / Eric's Bedroom.

Since meat is weighed before cooking, it would be a little messy and unsanitary to carry your scale in your pocket.

On the other hand, I wouldn't count on the local weights & measures authority to enforce honesty in these weights either. I'd probably play dumb and ask, "So, how much is that in grams?" I suspect their scale is checked for that.

Just a caution, as I know how trusting you are, and don't want to see you ripped off by unscrupulous traders. :)

Yes - I suspect accuracy of weighing equipment is way up there at the top of piorities on the Club capital of the world, Ibiza.

(British Irony)

Since pounds aren't legal for trade in the UK, I wonder if weights in pounds or ounces are checked for honesty there. The scale is only certified in grams or kilograms.

Perhaps easy enough to check by conversion factor, but I wonder if it actually is checked? Although if the scale really weighs in kg and extends a kg price, and pounds were for customer convenience, I'd lean towards selling heavy pounds. If I were just claiming a steak was 1 lb, and no one was checking the weight in grams on a certified scale, I'd sell very light pounds.

I really honestly don't think tourists really care that much.

<<Since pounds aren't legal for trade in the UK>>

I'll defer a response to (pro-metric) Berenger on that one. Because they are.

Daniel: "No they're not"

Stimpy,

Pounds are not legal for trade in the United Kingdom, but until 31-Dec-2009, they may be used as a supplementary unit alongside metric units which are legal for trade.

In the UK, the cooked steaks in a restaurant are not subject to the Weights & Measures Act 1985 - "12 oz steak & peas & chips" is a description of a meal, not a "use for trade" of a weight or measure

If the uncooked steak weighed less than the advertised weight (metric or imperial) any enforcement action would be taken under the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.

It is therefore perfectly legal to advertise "12 oz steaks" (without a metric equivalent) in a restaurant menu.

In reality, the restaurant usually doesn't have a stamped scale - they rely on their butchermeat suppliers to cut the steaks to the desired weight. The butcher will cut the steaks to weigh at least 340g each on his metric scale.

TSO's check the weights of the steaks on occasion - and always go in and check the weights of the steaks in the fridge if a consumer complaint is received.

"Pounds are not legal for trade in the United Kingdom, but until 31-Dec-2009, they may be used as a supplementary unit alongside metric units which are legal for trade."

If pounds are not legal for trade, then is a crime committed if they are in error? If not, then under what technicality is a pound error a crime?

Danny

I'll try to put it in simple terms.

If pairs of jeans with waist sizes ranging from 28 inches to 42 inches are all advertised at £39.99, the sale is (obviously) not by weight or measure. It is by reference to a description.

However, if Steve knows that his waist measures 36 inches (just guessing Steve!) & buys a pair of jeans labelled "36 inch waist", would you not expect the jeans to measure around 36 inches/91.5cm around the waist?

If they actually measure 22 inches, do you not think that the jeans have been misdescribed?

I don't know about you, but (even as a metric supporter) I know how long an inch is.

As I state above, any offence would be under the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.

While the different size jeans may all be the same price, different size steaks rarely are.

The price differential may not be a strict amount/pound, there is implied pricing by weight, and potentially short measure.

Beranger,

Here in the states most people buy their clothes in department stores, like Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Sears, JC Pennys, etc. I normally wear a size 38 (96 cm). Yet, I have to try on any pants want I buy in the store before I take it home, or I might be returning it, as some 38s are OK, some are tight and some are loose. There is no consistency. Shirts are the same way. If you have a size 17.5 (44 cm) neck, you are not guaranteed that a shirt labeled as size 17 will fit.

I've seen an increasing number of clothes, mainly shirts that no longer use sizing numbers and just go by S, M, L, XL XXL, XXXL, 4XL, etc. I usually by the XXL size even though it fits loose at first, because after the first couple washings it fits well. The irregularities in the sizes may have something to do with the way the actual size in centimetres is converted to inches.

Actually, I asking about packaged and asked for food. If a package were to be marked as 450 g (1 lb) would the error be considered an offense if the pound is not legal for trade and is just a reference? Is there legal protection for supplemental units if their status is not legal as there is for legal units? How does it work?

(36" waist-) I'd put you down as at least 15 st. At your age you should consider stopping eating 1 lb slabs of meat for your own safety.

<<Danny

I'll try to put it in simple terms.>>

That simply oozes frustration!

<<However, if Steve knows that his waist measures 36 inches (just guessing Steve!)>>

Cheeky! I'm a 34/32 (waist-leg) and I'm doing something about it! Need to get to below 13st before the holiday in November!

I'm surprised that none of the nutbag brigade have tried to "use" that 22" vs 36" excuse to mention that jeans waist size can be slightly (and naturally) different by less than an inch when first taken off the peg! Like fabric does not stretch or shrink with time!!!

Is that a cue....?

<<
Actually, I asking about packaged and asked for food. If a package were to be marked as 450 g (1 lb) would the error be considered an offense if the pound is not legal for trade and is just a reference? Is there legal protection for supplemental units if their status is not legal as there is for legal units? How does it work?
>>

The sale is technically taking place in metric units. You ask for one pound, the seller converts it to 454 g, either mentally or with a calculator, and gives you 454 g and tells you that you are getting one pound. If he doesn't give you the metric equivalent of whatever you asked for, he is breaking the law.
Please note that this is based entirely of my understanding of British law, which comes from one source: these boards. Therefore, take it for what it's worth.

http://www.inetours.com/Pages/Dining_Archive/Bullshead.html

The above is a review (with prices) of a San Francisco steakhouse.

It includes "Filet mignon – 8-oz $18.15 12-oz $21,65 16-oz (one pound!) $28.15

As John suggests above, there is no relationship between the weight of uncooked steak in each meal

Filet mignon
8 oz = $36.30/lb
12 oz = $37.53/lb (more expensive per lb. than the 8oz!)
16 oz = $28.15/lb

Also (as has been pointed out before), the steak will lose weight during the cooking process. It will weigh less when it arrives at the customer's table.

To quote O'Keefe
"The essence of this conception of selling by weight was not merely that the transference of a particular weight in the commodity, achieved by proper weighing, should be agreed between buyer and seller, but that there should also be agreed a price fixed at a particular rate per pound according to the weight. For a seller to fix an arbitrary price not worked out upon the weight at a particular rate per pound agreeable to the purchaser was not to sell by weight."

There is no delivery of a "particular weight" as the steak has lost weight during cooking. There is an arbitrary price.

If this restaurant was subject to UK law, the restaurant owner is NOT using the described weights of the steaks in a way covered by the WMA'85. As I state in a previous post above, the weight of steak delivered is subject to the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.

Section 2 states ".......A trade description is an indication, direct or indirect, and by whatever means given, of any of the following matters with respect to any goods or parts of goods, that is to say –
a) quantity, size or gauge......"

Note the use of "direct or indirect and by whatever means given"

O'Keefe states "There are many ways in which a trade description can be conveyed, ie by the use of words, pictures, numbers, implication etc. In Mear v Baker (1954) 118 JP 483, it was held that the indication ‘9–12’ marked on a turkey meant 9 lbs 12 oz."

Danny said "If pounds are not legal for trade, then is a crime committed if they are in error?"

Yes - under the TDA'68 - not under the WMA'85

Danny also said "Actually, I asking about packaged and asked for food. If a package were to be marked as 450 g (1 lb) would the error be considered an offense if the pound is not legal for trade and is just a reference?"

I thought we were talking about steaks in restaurants? Are they packaged in the USA?

I used the jeans example as a nice simple introduction to the concept that not all uses of weight or measure in the UK are subject to the WMA'85.

The situation regarding packaged goods with weight markings is totally different - they are covered by the WMA'85.

The current Lacors advice on enforcement of the WMA'85 is

"The nominal quantity must be in metric units and any
supplementary indications should not be treated as the
nominal quantity for weights and measures purposes (although other offences, for example, under the Trade
Descriptions Act 1968 may be relevant)."

I do not consider "450g (1 lb)" to be "false to a material degree" as defined in the TDA'68.

In my opinion, "400g (1 lb)" would definitely be false to a material degree. I don't pretend to know where the courts would set a cut-off point.

First, if 12 oz = 0.75 lb, then the 12 oz steak is $28.86/lb.

Although not precisely proportional to weight, I can argue that the price is substantially proportional to weight. Further, I can fit a smooth polynomial through the given data, and impute a value or cost for weights other than those tabulated. To the degree I am sold short weight, I can thereby determine the degree to which I have been "damaged."

(My doctor would say getting a small steak is better for my health, although my wallet would disagree).

I have no idea if it would fly, but in our litigous society, I am sure it would at least be admissable.

Of course, we are really talking law in Turkey because the restaurant is there, so I have no clue. UK, US, and EU law wouldn't matter.

John

Yeah - I multiplied the 16 oz price by 4/3 rather than the 12 oz price - daft mistake to make!

But, (in the UK), why try to force the offence into the WMA'85 when the TDA'68 is more suitable? This isn't really a metric v imperial argument - a TSO would also use the TDA'68 to prosecute a restaurant advertising 500g steaks that really had an uncooked weight of 300g.

I know the original restaurant was in Turkey but must point out that I only became involved in this debate after you posted

"Since pounds aren't legal for trade in the UK, I wonder if weights in pounds or ounces are checked for honesty there. The scale is only certified in grams or kilograms."

Then Steve invited me to reply

Re: Imperial in Turkey September 13 2005, 8:57 PM
JS
Of course, we are really talking law in Turkey because the restaurant is there, so I have no clue. UK, US, and EU law wouldn't matter.

metre
Neither would Turkish law provided enough bakshish changes hands.