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Assuming that you teach counter traps, at what point in your curriculum do you teach them? What I mean is this, lets say you teach a simple Pak Sau, do you then at this point teach the counters to it, or do you leave the counters to each trap for much later?
Good question! I normally get the student well familiarized with the basic mechanics of trapping, then I start working counter-trapping. I do this using both reference point drills and chi sao, as you have to "feel" the energy in order to respond with the correct timing. This seems to work very well for me and my guys!
If a trap is set up and executed correctly (as an HIA - Hand Immobilization ATTACK) there should be no counter for it! Notice the key word there was ATTACK! Counter-traps work against those who are not that familiar with the proper way to trap. These are usually the practitioners who say that trapping is used ONLY when there is an obstruction on the line you are attacking, and are not familiar with the idea of trapping AS an ATTACK! A good trap is physical, mental and psychological, meaning that it is executed so flawlessly and effectively that the opponent's entire system momentarily shuts down and there IS NO COUNTER! There should be NO TIME to counter! Most can be counter-trapped, but it is my belief that Steve Golden's traps cannot!
Lamar, you said, "I would define it as a trap used to counter/shut down an improperly executed, poorly timed trapping movement."
So, if I understand that correctly, counter trapping is... Trapping. I get confused easily. I learned in mathematics that two things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. Doesn't that mean that counter trapping = trapping? If so, isn't teaching trapping the same as teaching counter trapping? If not, then what is counter trapping???
Lamar, Way back, you wrote, "I normally get the student well familiarized with the basic mechanics of trapping, then I start working counter-trapping."
So, since we agree that there is no difference between trapping and counter-trapping, this is the same as saying, "I normally get the student well familiarized with the basic mechanics of counter-trapping, then I start working trapping?"
So, is there really such a thing as counter-trapping? Interesting.
Just a note: I, personally do not feel that trapping and counter-trapping are the same thing, nor do I feel that they are even related. The plot thickens.
--Steve
p.s. To all others reading this stuff, you now have a good idea of why people prefer that I don't post on their forums. :-)
I love it when you post on my forum! No, really I do!
Well, as for the trapping/counter-trapping issue, I look at it like this, before you learn to counter a trap, you must first know what a trap is. That is why I referred to teaching the mechanics of basic trapping first. Also, does a counter-trap necessarily even involve a trap on the part of the person trapped, or can it be just something that "counters" the attempted trap. As an example, if someone attempts a pak sao (poorly of course) and I shift my weight back and hook kick to their groin, I didn't "trap", yet I still countered their trap! Would that be a counter-trap?
Now, to go even further out onto the limb (I think I felt it crack just a bit ... or maybe A LOT), if you attempt a trap and get trapped, then trap their attack and strike them, was that a counter-trap to a counter-trap? Would that be called a counter-counter-trap?
By the way, all joking aside, I really do love it when you post on my forum! Say hi to Nancy for me!
I've seen Bruce Lee bios with you in it. I take you really are the JKD "WISE GUY" LOL. I forgot the name of the bio, but I believe you had a big cigar in your mouth. Its cool to see you on this forum.
Sorry, Jason. You've got the wrong guy. I don't think I've been in any Bruce Lee bios and I've never smoked cigars. I'm also not the JKD "WISE GUY". However, leaving the JKD part off...
I think that was James Coburn who had the cigar during the interview in the documentary! I think there was also and interview with John T. Benn (boss from "Way of The Dragon") where he had a cigar. Either way ... cigar = GROSS!
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