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Tom Drake (Login edalb123) from IP address 70.49.204.186
Hi everyone
I have been told from someone that chi sao is not jkd and it is wing chun, I will not say who it was as not cause problems. I didn't not say anything to the, but in my mind I felt that they were wrong. I also was thinking if chi sao is not jkd, then the punching is not jkd, it's modified boxing. Of course I believe that chi sao belongs in JKD as with everything else. I just thought the way it was justfied did not make sense and I could have easily said the punching was boxing and not JKD then.
Any thoughts?
Tom
I tell you, I am getting so disgusted with these practitioners that keep trying to leave the Wing Chun out of Jeet Kune Do! I have said this before, and I will say it again ... WING CHUN GUNG FU IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ART IN THE FORMULATION OF JEET KUNE DO! Therefore, the elements from Wing Chun that Bruce Lee took are extremely important, and are a part of Jeet Kune Do! Chi sao is one of the MOST IMPORTANT elements in the formulation of Jeet Kune Do! In fact, it was once referred to as the NUCLEUS of the system! Yes, chi sao is from Wing Chun, but it is also an important part of Jeet Kune Do! It's just that simple! If anyone reading this feels differently, I would prefer that you keep your opinions to yourself, and go visit one of the anti Wing Chun forums where you will be in good company! I have HAD IT with this mess! In fact, here's a photo in their honor!
Lamar
mayb Bruce left out wing chun and he left out jkd?
what im trying too get to is if he was concentrating on one particular thing for his weekly program, like he did the wall bag training and go at that for awhile. then he might concentrate on something else chi sao etc or a punching and kicking drill then he might of gone back to something that scaffolds his body intelligence to get him to another level?,it could be his early training.
But I don't believe bruce had a early training..yes. in hong kong he did but bruce personal syle stayed the same from seattle too La and he just added fencing principles too a structure he was already had in seattle.
check out the early 1964 internationals. He bruce was not in a wing chun stance and he was shutting down his opponent with right hand techniques...etc
But my understanding off bruce lee the way I see him, why would he wait all that time just too add fencing principles, as he, bruce knew about this in seattle as his brother was a fencing champion and bruce being the person he is I would say by the time he got to La he had it down.
If he had discarded methods of training than saying jkd or wing chun then he may of entered a level that only he could discard and no one else that tryed to follow what he was doing.
If he denied parts of his training by the time he got too films then my guess is he was too busy to train all day like he used to.
How many people have you seen that moves and punches kicks etc like bruce? I guess not many but there is always people who will say "yea bruce didnt do it then or this or that" but can they do the same things he did?
Bruce did not drop wing chun from anything. He did however MODIFY it. He modified it in Seattle, then again in Oakland then again in LA Chinatown due to his experiences, his study of other arts (not training of other arts) and the principals of directness and efficiency. His JKD was his wing chun MODIFIED, along with elements of fencing and boxing. I have said it in another post and will do so again: the key words here are MODIFIED and ELEMENTS. Because of this I believe that JKD is really the only true scientific martial art. Depending on the lineage and how they learned wing chun would be a close second. Bruce used his students to his advantage and his needs and taught them based on their body structure. Think about it.
I dont actually believe bruce changed anything in la or oakland, why.. is because bruce had a way of punching and kicking back in seattle a compound triangle that never changed unless of cause he grew another arm and leg:) otherwise nothing changed apart from he grew stronger and added principles in application rarther than change his whole structure, and if he did change his structure it was because that I believe he cradled chi sao... and things like the dummy, to enhance an intelligence to a higher level forexample, bruce I feel layered his body and by doing chi sao and things of that kind made him a much powerfull individual.
You really need to look at pictures of how the JunFan gung fu stance and footwork is vs the Oakland and LA stances and footwork is then yes you can tell they were changed and influenced by fencing and boxing. Placement of the hands changed due to the stance structure being changed. All this I can see just by looking at pictures. Let alone taky Kimura stating that at a nucleus event.
It interesting too note that bruce covered the west coast doing denos in the early 1960s and you can see clearly bruce demo on taky and yes taky is in a wing chun stance etc but bruce is'nt....in this short clip 1964 internationals http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=j0O5mnmK0D0
you can see bruce main theme on intercepting and also watch his back foot raised and this was in 1964 so how is it the satnce changed in 1965? like most people say.
because this footwork bruce is doing is like off 1967 bi jong?
You said "in this short clip 1964 internationals". That sparring footage was from the '67 Internationals. Footage from the '64 Internationals is closer up, and is Bruce Lee demonstrating with Taky Kimura. They are in a smaller area and spectators are much closer to them.
I know FOR A FACT that there was a distinctive Jun Fan Gung Fu bai jong and a Jeet Kune Do bai jong. I have been taught both by students from each period. The Jun Fan bai jong was NOT a wing chun stance, although it did use the wing chun hand position.
Yes, that is the 1967 Long Beach Internationals. Taky participated in part of that demo, but as a walk-on in street clothes. That was the chi sao portion of the '67 demo. Bruce Lee's sparring partners were Dan Lee and Dan Inosanto for the sparring demo.
That is the footage from the 1964 Long Beach Internationals. Bruce's footwork changed quite a bit between 1959 and 1964. And even more between 1964 and 1967.
lamar.
Do you believe that bruce lee's chi-sao wooden dummy training etc was the cradle that enhanced bruce's powerfulll body? and could he of done it,if he had,say studied another art?
I have always said that Jeet Kune Do could not have become the incredibly efficient, extremely combative martial art that it is if Bruce Lee had not trained for five years in the Wing Chun system directly under the supervision of Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung! Only with Wing Chun, a very direct, highly efficient, highly combative fighting art, could Bruce Lee have progressed at the speed which he did in the creation of such a dynamic fighting art as Jeet Kune Do. It was the structure of Wing Chun that gave him the strong roots to grow from! EVERYTHING that he did after that, whether it looked like Wing Chun or not, was backed up by those strong roots! So yes, I would say that such things as chi sao, sil lim tao and mook jong training went a long way toward conditioning him to be the amazing martial artist that he became! Anyone who ever hopes to achieve Bruce Lee-like skills must also follow a similar path! In My opinion, without the Wing Chun foundation structure, you are just a shell of what you have the capacity to become in this art, and certainly nowhere near the overall skill level of Bruce Lee!
In the taky kimura footage bruce lee is in his own personal fighting style with the hand reference point and the stance he is in,obviously there is more of that footage somewhere because bruce is punching and kicking in different ways also without the reference point attachment that he bruce lee invented from the fencing principle.
If bruce lee had changed the scaffolding then it must of been in seattle that bruce created this compound triangle and the footwork to go with it that he bruce lee would use all the way throught too la?
As you can see in one of the youtube clips bruce is in a wide open stance, so was it bruce taught a curriculum in his schools and a personal fighting style for himself?
And that what ever bruce did in this compound triangle it had too fit in with directness and simplicity and strength off structure and not adding techniques for the sake off adding.
A prime example would be in the fighting methods books where bruce lee is using the wooden dummy with the middle arm out, this way bruce eneergys and personal way is going into this structure, and not to sayhe didnt put the other middle arm in, like I was talking about scaffolding he brucelee would strenghten his body by adding poles, like build up and breakdown of his own intelligence sort of thing.
so this build up and break down stayed the same thats what I was onto or trying too get to in my posts and it was this that bruce added fencing applictions too rather than other arts?
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