... of the Scottish cleric who invented the concept way back (early 1700's, maybe?), and I think before steam engines became commercially viable. I think you missed both times I brought my model stirling engine (alcohol-fired) to PhACT events (one was a picnic) and ran it for the crowd.
It needs a good cleaning to run properly again, but it came with a little history book about stirlings, and a neat video besides. When we get together for lunch I can bring it, and lend it. (My schedule is tight, at least for this week.) Running it at a restaurant table is always fun, especially when I light the burner and the waitresses all get agitated. The engine is completely silent however, except for a slight mechanical hum, a big, big advantage in many applications.
Per your: "You and the engine were running on alcohol."
Why didn't you say something at the time? I could have lit my breath as a heat source, and saved the denatured alcohol. In small containers, that stuff costs as much as the cheap booze I drink.
the original question wasn't even addressed! ... how does any of this do anyone any good ... oh great ... someone has a working model ... cool ... the question was originally ... DOES ANYONE PRODUCE/SELL THEM? How about a simple YES or NO ... If you don't know of any place where people can go to purchase one ... what are you all talking about???? NOTHING ... NO HELP TO ANYONE
If that is so then why are these machines not in use along rivers capturing the temerature difference between the water and the air. It would seem to be a huge source of totally clean and sustainable power.
Would this thing change the temperature of the outflowing water or exhaust air? In order to get power I would think that one or both of those must change.
...while lots of systems make technical sense, most often (and I believe in this case as well), the economics are the problem. Again we can discuss details over a glass or two.
I cited the advantage of a stirling's nearly-silent operation for a reason. The only really successful stirling applications of which I'm aware are based on that silent operation (i.e., in RV parks where there is no electrical hook-up and a conventional gasoline generator is a source of annoying noise pollution, and as a front-line, military, power-source, where the noise can draw enemy fire.)
Another big advantage (especially in the past, say 1850 to early 1900's), is that they can run on any suitable source of heat (or temperature differential, as in your proposal).
Ray, a problem with existing, commercial, stirling-powered...
November 6 2005, 1:34 PM
...generators is that they're pretty small. If memory serves the RV unit is only a couple of KW (it only burns 0.2 gallons of diesel fuel per hour). I'm going to guess that the military unit might be pretty small too, either man-portable, or more likely, small enough to fit in the back of a Humvee, or towed by one in a low-silhouette trailer. They are both tiny compared to (what?) maybe a 500KW, "over-the-road" diesel-powered generator, integrated on a flat-bed "semi" trailer, that big events like "Punkin Chunkin require.
That will be $1.98 for those Professional Engineering estimates.
Cheers,
Dave
PS: Hey, go to the "Quiet Revolution Motor Company's" website (use Google) and especially look at their engine animations. They'll give you a much better handle on how these beasties operate.
We are paying 1% every year from the GDP for damages from burning fossil fuels. For industrial nations it is roughly 200 billion Dollars every year. This 1% is not the end of the downward spiral but only the beginning
I wish the oil price goes to it’s realistic market price of $100-200 a barrel. Only then will people wake up and start implementing good technology like wind, solar, water and nuclear energy in industrial quantities.
Brain
Unknown: A mistake not corrected is another mistake.
...I'll bring the engine and video to Eric's for the Solstice Party. I think the many techies who usually attend would like to see the video (if Eric still has a VHS player! If not I think I could bring one.) It shows a wide variety of designs in operation. The really simple ones are a real hoot, even simpler than a model airplane semi-diesel (glow-plug engine).
...I'll bring the engine and video to Eric's for the Solstice Party. I think the many techies who usually attend would like to see the video (if Eric still has a VHS player! If not I think I could bring one.) The video shows a wide variety of designs in actual operation. The really simple ones are a real hoot, even simpler than a model airplane semi-diesel (glow-plug engine).
Could these contraptions be a useful way to generate electric power in industrial quantities
Yes Ray, it easily could produce huge amount of cheep and clean energy
Work has been underway since 2001 in the use of concentrating solar dishes for electrical power generation. Originally, this consisted of two dish-Stirling systems: one marketed by SES (Stirling Energy Systems) and one marketed by SAIC (Science Applications International Corporation). The latter used a Stirling Thermal Motors engine. A picture of these two systems is shown in Figure 1. Each unit developed about 25 kW at maximum operational conditions, and the generated power fed into the Nevada Power grid. Nevada Power is cooperating with the project and furnished the interconnect equipment.
25 KW is peanuts in the world of power production. That is a big apparatus for such small reward, and that reward is only when the sun shines. 25 KW should translate to about the powr needed to operate 250 light bulbs rated at 100 watts.
Solar power towers consist of a large field of sun-tracking mirrors, called heliostats, which focus solar energy on a receiver atop a centrally located tower. The enormous amount of energy, coming out of the sun rays, concentrated at one point (the tower in the middle), produces temperatures of approx. 550°C to 1500°C. The gained thermal energy can be used for heating water or molten salt, which saves the energy for later use.
Heatened water gets to steam, which is used to move the turbine-generator. This way thermal energy is converted into electricity.
Heat storage and transfer
As already mentioned there are two main fluids which are used for the heat transfer, water and molten salt. Water for example is the oldest and simplest way for heat transfer. But the difference is that the method in which molten salt is used, allows to store the heat for the terms when the sun is behind clouds or even at night. Molten salt - better: the heat of it - can be used until the next dawn when the sun will be back to heat the cooled down salt again.
The molten salt consists of 60% sodium nitrate an 40% potassium nitrate (salpeter). The salt melts at about 700°C and is liquid at approx. 1000°C, it will be kept in an insulated storage tank until the time, when it will be needed for heating up the water in the steam generator.
This way of energy storage has an efficiency of approx. 99%, i.e. due to the imperfect insulation 1% of the stored energy gets lost .
Produces about 10 MWe, enough power to serve 10,000 homes with electricity. Costs about 40 million US$ will be used in an experiment until 1998
This would mean $4K for one household and then free energy minus maintenance costs forever
Brain
Albert Einstein: I do not know with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.
I like that idea. 10 megawatts still is not huge power but it is getting serious.
How big is the power plant? About 400 yards. In one square mile there could be about 16 power plants producing 160 megawatts of electricity. 10 miles X 10 miles in the desert could produce energy equivalent to 40 nuclear power plants. And there are plenty of deserts
One concern about solar power of this nature is that it currently takes some considerable amount of land.
It takes considerable amount of land in the desert. Also drilling for oil also takes considerable amount of land. And the climate change, raise of ocean level would eat up more land than the land taken by the Solar Two. The land taken by the raise of ocean is at the shore where people have their houses and where hotels are, destroying property and jobs. One could also bring the insulation up to an R-31 rating and apply windows with spectrally selective glass that lets visible light through but keeps the solar heat gain out which will lower the heat traveling through the windows. A 5kW roof integrated photovoltaic system was installed on the south side of the roof. This will be a source of power throughout the year. There you have a zero energy house that could be applied in the south
then a 100 square mile installation would produce 16,000 megawatts of power. The Grand Coulee dam which is the largest in the United States produces 6,480 Megawatts of power. I am not sure of the acerage of lake Roosevelt but it does extend 150 away from the dam so the amount of land consumed is quite considerable.
The dam does provide water for irrigation projects in addition to hydro power. Hopefully those uses are on balance a good thing. The solar power Stirling engines do seem cleaner though. They certainly will not cause floods, unless of courese, the molten salt ponds are breached.
Grand Coulee is a hydroelectric dam, and part of the Columbia River Hydro System, a series of 14 dams harnessing the energy of the mighty Columbia River. Interestingly, the System is an example of the close ties between Canada and the US in this Pacific Northwest region, as it includes 3 dams above the border. Grand Coulee Dam is the largest U.S. producer of hydro-electric energy, generating 6,800 of the 35,000 megawatts of electricity generated by the System.
Could there be more hydroelectric plants built? Is there an empty spot somewhere in the river system? It would be a shame if power would not be converted into electricity.
There are also small hydroelectric plants that combined could also generate huge amount of energy
Those engaged in energy production at small hydroelectric power plants often call this business a hobby. They work in the business with excitement – it is a business, as well as a hobby, and a profitable one at that. Luxurious villas frequently sprout around the dams they build these plants on. Many of the small stations built on beautiful rivers or ponds have become recreational sites. This is an independent business – it is better to engage in this than in any kind of trade. "If you have built a power plant, you need not worry anymore: the turbine is churning, and your money flows in; but if you own a shop you have to run around all the time," says Petras Pinus, chairman of the Lithuanian Society of Hydroelectric Power Engineers. http://www.baltkurs.com/english/archive/fall_2001/power.htm
about the Stirling engine. If one would take a 3 yards parabolic umbrella
and instead of the flash lamp a Stirling engine, light following sensor and satellite dish motor, one could easily make an affordable electricity generator how many house owners in southern California, Florida, Nevada, Texas… would buy it?
Brain
Albert Einstein: "The miraculous thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible."
indeed an awesome spectacle. I had the good fortune to go there about a year and a half ago and I was duly impressed. It is America's largest dam by far with about three times the generating capacity of Hoover Dam which might be our most famous dam.
The Columbia River has other dams on it as well as the Grand Coulee. The Bonneville Dam is huge and impressive too plus it has an interesting arrangement for fish to move up and down the river.
There are quite a few other dams on the Columbia River system so I expect that further hydro-power may not be too profitable, plus the dams do have some considerable effects upon the ecology.
take some pictures of the Grand Coulee but I keep forgetting how to post pictures on here even though Al keeps telling me how.
As to the fame of Hoover Dam, I believe it was the largest dam in the US until the late 1940's. Hoover is taller than Grand Coulee, but not nearly as wide. Also, Hoover is not all that far from Las Vegas and is visited by a lot of tourists. Grand Coulee on the other hand, is in hte middle of nowhere in eastern Washington state. It is a desolate area not highly visited by tourists, except people like me who wish to avoid crowds.
Not far from Grand Coulee are the Dry Falls which were formed during some recent Ice Age when a giant lake about the size of Montana drained in about one day becaue the ice dam broke. The Dry Falls are much higher than Niagara Falls and are about 3 miles wide. Very impressive to see. The "coulees" are channels dug into the dirt and rock by the water during that episode. Grand Coulee is the largest of the coulees.
take some pictures of the Grand Coulee but I keep forgetting how to post pictures on here even though Al keeps telling me how.
When you scanned the pictures, did you save them in a compressed, smaller file size like 100-200K in order for people to view?
It’s simple Ray. Just need to register for free at http://geocities.yahoo.com/ and upload the pictures from your computer to their server. Then post the picture link at the message board and it will show as picture.
people like me who wish to avoid crowds.
You too Ray yesterday I went to the store to buy a battery. It was so crowded I thought; if there is a hell, this must be it! I like more quite places where I can think and analyze. When I see them hyperactive sheeple running around like headless chicken, I get down.
Brain
Davy Crockett: Be always sure you're right, then go ahead.
Due to SSE and holiday duties, I haven't had much time to spend chatting here.
Hey, Buddy, you were really missed at the Solstice party, and you missed a good time as well. We'll have to set up that "Drafting Room" lunch once the 2005-2006 change-over settles down.
Per your: "What do you think of that gizmo, Dave?"
Allow me to pontificate a little, Ray, and as unlikely as it is, Al will probably back me up on this:
If my R&D Engineering career taught me anything, it's that "There are lots of technical triumphs that turn out to be financial flops!"
If you want to generate really cheap power, it's tough to beat water-wheels (one of the earliest methods, and still likely the cheapest). Coal-fired electric power is likely next, at least here in the U.S.
A lot of the stuff in this thread is "cute", but awfully tough to make a buck with. Ever hear of "Astropower" in Delaware?
The problem with hydro power as I see it is that it takes a lot of water runnning down hill and to do that a lot of land needs to be converted to reservoirs or a lot of rivers damed. Either way it has some pretty severe ecological impact.
The sterling engine solar system seems kind of neat to me ... if it actually works.
methods, hydro-electric is probably the best all around choice, and that includes ecological impact (a very complex analysis is involved on that specific issue). It's main limitation: there's only so much flowing water!
The STIRLING solar gadget is cute, especially for driving air-conditioning units in hot, sunny places. If it's commercially viable (which I sincerely doubt, due to high front-end [capital] cost), you'll see lots of them. If it's not, you won't.
Astropower made solar-electric panels for commercial/residential installations. They went belly-up, and GE bought what was left. Basic problem: capital cost to make an average single home energy-independent was $30,000 about 5 years ago. With recent real-estate inflation, that's probably $60,000 today. Would you want to pay that UP FRONT or pay the utilities on a monthly basis, remembering also that all such systems require maintenance and eventual replacement (i.e. more costs).
"Money makes the world go around, the world go around, the world go around..."
Darwin certainly had most of it right: Survival of the fittest, adapt or die, etc. If it's commercially viable you'll see a lot of it, if it isn't, you won't.
