Any results from day one. Any observations.

Yeah, head wind puts a helluva damper on race times

So...where are the comments? The Good. The Bad. The Ugly.

A final positions were:

1) Sudbury Chiros
2) Hanalei
3) Hammerheads
4) Mayfair
5) Big Fish

They finished in lane order...go figure.

Shogun won A consolation, don't remember any more.

One question ran through everyone's head at the finish line.
Could Mayfair overcome lane four to win.
That made the whole final exciting, otherwise most of them
could have been predicted before hand.

Lane 1: First place
Lane 2: Second place
Lane 3: Third place
.
.
.

You get the picture.

The only team to overcome it was the Mofo's and the could only mustet a second.

the lane you were in, its the position you got...

So, if Lane One was the better lane, why wasn't that acknowledged by the race organizers when seeding the races? I don't understand.

Outstanding! Congrats Hammerheads! You've definately worked hard for it. Congrats to all A division teams.

You really have to laugh.
Mayfair goes out and gets the top times in day one, in the morning and afternoon sessions, and then gets a lesson in wash-riding in the semi final.
Why would their Farintosh even allow a team to catch even a breath of their wash ??

That's right!
He should have told them to back off and get their into their own lanes.
Saying please would have ensured cooperation.
What a doofus. (refered to previous post)

Are you kidding me? These GWN races have "ghost lanes" for cripes sake, the only legitimate way I know of to reduce wash riding.

If you stay in you lane, no foul. EOS. No team was ever cautioned or punished for entering the ghost lanes, therefore no team broke any rules and wash riding as an offense did not occur.

The fact that the GWN course is both narrow and shallow has nothing to do with the teams. The course is the course, an absolute. You deal with it as best you can. If a team rides the buoys on one side or other of their lane, but does NOT cross them, no foul.

Don't diminish the results of any of the teams at GWN on the basis of wash riding. That's just weak.

Give me a break. Must have been a comment by a Mayfair paddler who knows nothing about wash riding. With the Ghost lanes riding wash is not available. Sorry...just an excuse for them losing the semi in a tough race against some solid teams. Mayfair as was proven this weekend is not unbeatable. Hey Hanalei beat them in lane 3 in the semi when they had lane 2 (and no I don't paddle for Hanalei). Leave the excuses at home especially if you have never coxed before and know nothing of riding wash. Fair and square, Mayfair lost the race this weekend in the semi and got the lane they earned.

just so you all know, they had also flipped the lane order from saturday and sunday
saturday being lane 1 on the outside closer to lake shore and 5 being closer to ontario place
sunda obviously being the opposite

just put the drink down and back away, just back away.....

Good racing but unfair lane biases. Too bad, since this is a great venue and location otherwise. Overall great racing and valiant efforts all round

Hey yes there is a Lane bias here, but there was also Lane bias in Welland based on the wind direction. So basically the key is you still need to race well in the semis at Ontario place to seat well for the finals. That is just the way racing worked here and that is the draw. Good crews overcome it by going fast.

There WAS a definite lane bias......but regardless of the final results, the five best teams all made it into the A final which is a testament to their skill and hard work.

Oh brother:
You can't tell a good crew from a bad one if there is a bias that makes both teams seem to be even with each other. A 0.01 or even 0.05 bias MAY be acceptable. However a 5 second one is definitely NOT. Don't diminish the quality of good teams by diminishing the actual amplitude of the bias, which was a really defining factor in races. Bias isn't acceptable in ANY competitive sport, so why are you tolerating it here? (Go tell Donovan Bailey that he was to take a 0.05 second handicap in a race and see how well he takes it.)

I agree with Gilles here. Congrats to all crews regardless of divisions.

You know what I find funny? How come no one has come out and said the tired phrase, "Good teams find a way to win?" Could it be that perhaps that phrase is actually bullshit? Or is it that the teams who say it were the ones that got shafted by the bad lanes at GWN?

Discuss.

Anonymous 11:16pm said,
"Good crews overcome it by going fast."

So those idiots still do exist.

When will people learn that the macho "effort will surpass all" only works out in the movies. In real life, some things are just unfair. You can try your hardest to overcome something that is unfair. Sometimes you overcome it, often times you don't. This doesn't preclude one from trying, but people should recognize disparity when it exists and not go to the lame "good teams find a way to win" BS.

The competition here is great, the sitelines great...the course with a headwind could be argued to be one of the 4 worst courses out there for fairness along with Stratford, the Island and Windsor.

Ghost lanes on a shallow narrow course like that do nothing, especially when the crews are more evenly matched. You can still put yourself within 4-5 meters of the other crew which is well close enough. All crews end up sitting in the same wave. Even with the deep water of welland was it hard for the winning crews to get ahead by the same margin that they were winning in the heats when the boats weren't close.

The only true way to officiate it is good offial's, with balls, keeping crews directly in the middle of their lanes and assessing time penalties if they don't.

Look, everyone is thinking it and kudos to all who haven't been flaming what appears to be a very biased lane 1/2.
Any person who cares to look at the finishes for most of the divisions saw the placings as they were placed in the lanes, meaning if you were in lane 1, you finished first and so on. Again, it was mentioned that there were a few exceptions. All that can be done is the point is made and hopefully somehow something can be done next year as it is frustrating from a paddling standpoint to get the fastest time, end up in lane 3 for example and still lose to crews you have consistently beat who happened to jockey for lane 1/2. But again, the purpose of this message is to congratulate all who have made their point without being witless and purely flaming. Obstacles such as these lane biases can be overcome with constructive criticisms and not flaming. Maybe next year they can seed the fastest teams from lane 1 outward heh. Come on you have to admit, being a fan on the hill watching the fastest time near you doesn't get you excited?

1. Chiros
2. Hanalei
3. Hammerheads
4. Mayfair
5. Big Fish

6. Shogun
7. Telus
8. WRCC
9. SCC
10. Collingwood

11. Immortals
12. Mofos
13. Jetstart
14. Chaos
15. Verdun

16. Clintar
17. Saints
18. Para Huti Huti
19. Evolution
20. Mojos

21. Hydrophobic
22. GM
23. Shockwave
24. Komodo
25. Blades

26. Mircacle Dragons
27. BMO
28. Belleville
29. SeaMonkeys
30. Along For The Ride.

More later...

It was a great weekend of racing and some really interesting results. The lane issue exists, and you just have to deal with it. Fair, no, but there's nothing more to be done about it so you either accept it, play your hand as best you can, or don't go.

A few teams stand out in my mind for their performances over the weekend. Shogun really stepped it up. I'm surprised by their performance. I have no idea how their semi and final lane draws worked out, but in the heats their times were very competitive. The surprise performance of the weekend. Good job.

Hanalei, that was a gutsy semi-final performance. Winning in Lane 3 vs Mayfair in Lane 2, who saw THAT coming? Silver looks good on you, congrats.

Heh, Chiros you finally found some luck this year after a couple of disappointments on the Club Crew front. Great racing, and always a pleasure to have you in town. Two in a row, eh? Cheers.

If Mayfair wins, then good teams find a way to win. If they loose it must be bacause someone else cheated, rode wash, whatever whatever whatever. It is clearly impossible for other teams to perform well or perhaps they weren't at their best and just plain lost.

Wash riding allegations are ridiculous since all three teams in the Sunday mornging Semi were virtually side by side from about the 200 meter mark on. With the ghost lanes you would need to be at least a half a boat back to be getting any wash.

Suck it up Mayfair, you finished 4th. Whining really doesn't become you. Congrates to all the other teams that raced their butts off.

PS. Anyone have times from the final?

31. Warriors
32. BOD Squad
33. TAD
34. Catch 22
35. Adrenaline

36. Iron Dragons
37. Ronin
38. Smoke on the Water
39. CN
40. Unisen

41. 5.10
42. Cyclones
43. GSK
44. Banana Boat
45. Battle Dragons

46. Titans
47. Sinai
48. Barracudas
49. PMH
50. Rehabergo

Misc. Stuff (from top 50):
-Lane 1 wins: 6 of 10
-Lane 2 wins: the other 4
-Teams that won out of lane 2: Titan, 5.10, Iron Dragons, Clintar
-Teams that didn't finish last in lane 5: PMH, GSK, Catch 22, Seamonkeys

Comments:
-The results vs. True Rankings pretty much went haywire. Was it the wind? Hard to say. Most of the top teams had to qualify out of lanes 2 and 4 but the wind did build all day Saturday.
-The "Paddled out of Their Shorts" Award goes to Shogun. Stunned silence greated their first time Saturday morning. Congratulations on an excellent weekend. You guys have made a ton of progress since Montreal.
-Honourable mentions: Chaos and Collingwood. Both put in very credible performances and were neck-and-neck for the last spot in A.
-The "OMG, Would You Look at That" Award goes to Hanalei. A strong semi puts the A-final field on its ear. Way to go guys!
-The "Ya Gotta Be Good To Be Lucky" Award goes to the Chiros. That must have been some bus ride home!

Nice way for Chiro to finish a clearly disappointing season. They have been totally off the podium and off the leader board all year.
In fairness they got the crap lanes in Sudbury and were out classed by the top crews at the NACC event.
Winning two in a row at GWN is a first for any crew, I think?.

It is really too bad that the lanes are so bias at Ontario Place. I'm sure all the top teams really hate that, as even a few tenths matter at that level.

Lane four and five were cooked when up agianst tough competition.

Oh well it is a festival event and you get what you get...

Still a big event to win and congrats. to all winners in all divisions.....even if you got lane one.... maybe a different team will get lane one next time..

"Hanalei, that was a gutsy semi-final performance. Winning in Lane 3 vs Mayfair in Lane 2, who saw THAT coming? "

Mayfair got outcoxed.
Hanalei made me $45 by winning that race (four $10 bets and a $5 one).
Thank you Hanalei.

"Hanalei, that was a gutsy semi-final performance. Winning in Lane 3 vs Mayfair in Lane 2, who saw THAT coming? "

Mayfair got outcoxed.
Hanalei made me $45 by winning that race (four $10 bets and a $5 one).
Thank you Hanalei.

Nice to see some positive, intelligent posts. Thanks for the kind words Fishy and 5. As for the semi-final wash riding accusations made earlier and attributed to Mayfair, that doesn't sound at all like what I heard from the Mayfair members I spoke and drank beer with after the event. They were all gracious (if a wee bit miffed) in defeat.

Cheers to all who participated.

really need to see the video of the race.

Looked to me that Mayfair was the one not going down the center of their lane. If anything both Hanalai and Mayfair were trying to get as close to lane one as possible. All three boats were 3/4 to a whole lane appart and virtually even the last 300 meters so if you knew anything about wash riding you would know that no one was pulling anyone.

Again, I guess it simply isn't possible for mayfair to loose without someone else being sneaky or cheating.

I tend to think the top seed should get the fastest lane (lane 1), the second seed should get the second fastest lane (lane 2), etc. The finals would all be very boring to watch finishing in 1-2-3-4-5 order but at least teams would have to earn the good lanes. Currently the winner of semi final #1 gets lane 3 which is very difficult to win a final from if the teams are somewhat evenly matched. The winner of semi final #2 gets lane 2 which is better but still not as good as lane 1.

I don't care where the boats are in their lanes. It's impossible to go down Ontario Place course without riding wash. It's physics for crying out loud.
The course is only so wide, there are so many boats pushing the water forward and to the sides, wave gets created that pushes all the boats forward, helping even when help isn't needed or wanted. It's just the way it is.
This is why in places like Montreal, Ontario Place, even the Island to a smaller degree, it's impossible for crews to break away and margins of victory are much smaller than they are when raced on a wider course (like Welland). Narrow course keeps crews together.
Think about it, set up a course in your bathtub with five rubber duckies and see for yourself if years of racing haven't taught you to open your eyes to the realities around you.

Anon 10:41, I think you have a good idea there. GWN has been responsive to feedback before, and even changed their race format due to our feedback in the past.

Placing the top seed in the fastest lane (lane 1) makes complete sense. What's the point of having teams race their hearts out, only to have a marked handicap in their final heat? And to your point about it being boring with 1-2-3-4-5 finishes, we already see that anyway, but at least this method will make teams earn the right to race in lane 1 for the finals.

Video Boy

I would have liked to have reviewed that race again.
It's always over quicker, and you don't remember where the boats were
at any point in time.
Whatever happened in the "A" Semi-Final that everyone is bitiching about.
Tough. Mayfair went too far over to Lane One. They were almost touching
the ghost lane - that's there problem and they should know better. Did
that mean Big Fish got a ride down the course for a while - probably.
But, Hanalie still had to pull a great race to get there.

Don't knock Mayfair. There whole semi was faster. They were all providing
a great race for us to watch. They posted the top times of the weekend, but lost to some great teams that deserved to get there name on the podium.

it was just as likely that Mayfair was riding Fish or Hanalai since they were all even for the last 300 meters. You can twist the argument any way you want. Enjoy.

You still ended up as the fourth best team on the weekend.

Anyone got them? Please post. Might help to illuminate the discussion.

Yes lane bias is quite evident at GWN and would we have liked Lane 1 in the final? Yes however we went into the final hungry and knowing we could win out of lane 2 just as we went into the A semi knowing we could win out of lane 3. That unfortunately is just what we live with when racing at certain events. Tough racing by some great crews; congrats to SCC for the win, Hammerheads for coming in third and Mayfair and Big Fish and all the other up and coming crews for being class acts and pushing the field as always.

Every Crew was driving the line in the final.
Kudo's to them. Congrats to Hammerheads, Hanalie and Chiro's.

"it was just as likely that Mayfair was riding Fish or Hanalai since they were all even for the last 300 meters. You can twist the argument any way you want. "

Totally. You just proved my point.
I was saying it's impossible to not ride wash at Ontario Place.
It's just annoying seeing how people refuse to believe that their crew might have ridden wash.

Hanalie/Big Fish/Mayfair.

Most people in the race might be able to give us an accurate.
Knowing folks on all these crews...here's what I know.

They were not level, at 50m, 100m, or even 250m.
The position changed dramatically towards the middle of the race.
Big Fish made a calculated move around the 150m to get back in the race.
Mayfair almost broke free off the start, with 4/5/6 seats - depends who you talked to.

However, most of the people you chat to on those crews will act with great
respect to each other.

Did I see that correctly in above posts... Mofos didn't make A-division? Wow, imagine that.

Would have been cool to see how the results would have been if all the big names were there.

Congrats to all. Great racing!

Shogun did race well this weekend. They've definitely improved from the early part of the season with their new stroke. But let's not forget how many marthoners they had in their boat this weekend from Eat Trout. Its not the same crew they had in Welland or other races. Not to tarnish their fine result, but let's be honest. I do look for them to be an even stronger crew next season.

I think the Mofos need to paddle in reverse and push the blades towards the back of the boat to capitolize on their pushup power. Then they may have made A. Once they figure out they need to pull the boat down the course, lookout A division!

As long as enough crews and sponsors sign up for this race nothing will be done regarding the lanes. Scotia, one of GWN's bigger sponsors passed on this event year and will properly not return. If more teams and sponsors take this stand maybe just maybe something will be done

I don't think it's GWN fault.
I would suspect that they ask every year to dredge or cut the weeds....or ask for more rain to keep the water level high.
It's all up to Ontario Place.

Who cares anyway. Sharifa is building you a course.

Greetings! Here is a radical suggestion. Use the two races on Saturday as seeding races for a two-race final un Sunday. Here is how it would work:

- keep the same teams in both races on Saturday but have them flip lanes for the second race (ie . Lane goes to Lane 5, Lane 2 goes to Lane 4 and Lane three stays put)
- the top five combined times will then go into a two-race final witb the same system as Saturday (flipping lanes)
- use this for every race (ie. 6-10 A Consolation, 11-15 B Final and so on)

This would create a great deal of excitemnet and give teams an opportunity to overcome the "lane bias" everyone says exists.

Now go to your respective corners and start slamming my idea because that is what seems to be the sentiment on this post. Lots of complaining, little solutions.

real rocket ....an interesting thought.
wonder what would have happened if they had done it this weekend

realrocket, That actually makes a lot of sense. Think of the rivalries that could also be developed (in every division) using this format - a lot more head-to-head racing between teams.

Telus made lots of people recognize that they will be a threat next year.
Even with the upgrade of a few Slayers on your crew you guys paddled hard.
Hats off to Carleton for leading this team who will be a threat and the eventual team to beat in Montreal

Thanks ANON 1:16 and 1:23. My thought was to inject a little excitement. I see too many teams with a "crap, we drew lane 5 attitude" and they pack it in to a certain degree for the final (even though I think that is not the way teams should respond to a poor lane draw). with a two-race final I think you will see teams push very hard when they are in all lanes to ensure they can a/ take advantage of a better lane thus building a cushion when they are pushed to an outside lane for race 2 and b/ to post a time in an outside lane which will give them a chance to win when they switch lanes for the second half of the double-header.

You would have thought that Big Fish was happy to get lane 5 for the final. It sure didn't seem like they were letting it ruin their day any.

And I believe that the "Move" they did in the morning semi was done closer to the 75-100 meter mark than the 150. Anyone with video should be able to spot it.

I knew it would come, the denouncers have started. Remind me, Big Fish finished where in the final racing out of Lane 5? Yeah, that's right 5th. To say it would not have given them a boost knowing that they were heading over to Lane 1 for a second race in a two-race final is a little naive. I have raced and coxed out of Lane 5 for a final and despite all the "little engine that could" attitude one might have in the back of one's mind is the thought you are racing for fourth or maybe third at best.

I definitely agree that lane 4 and 5 stink out there. The odds of beating crews in the same class that are in Lanes 1-3 in the same heat from lane 5 is not likely. Remember however that in the A-semi Big Fish had Lane 1 in that semi so they needed to capitolize on that at the time. Unfortunately they came in third in that semi. They had the best chance possible of getting Lane 2 for the final in that semi than anyone else. That is racing. When the odds are in your favor you have to be on the money in A division where tenths and hundreths are the separator.

That is all fine but if my proposal does level the playing field and improve the event a little why not try it out. If we went along on our happy way with the "that is racing" mentality the sport will not evolve.

All that wasted time on figuring out something that cannot be really figured out.
If you really wanted a fair racing weekend Welland was just a couple of weeks ago. That was the only event this year that had no lane bitching. Every single other event had people bitching about lanes.

Where were the Imps on the weekend? Based on the results I think the Imps could've taken it all! Those guys are real racers and considering how well Hanalei and Hammerheads did in comparison to their Welland race I seriously think the Imperials could've won it all at Ontario Place. Better watch out for the Imps in 2006!!!

Hey Anon & realrocket.

I agree with both of you for the most part. Going into the semi-final, we knew that realistically, we had to win that race if we wanted any chance in the Final. Even placing second would've put us at a disadvantage (2nd would've placed us in lane 4, which ain't so hot either).

Unfortunately, although coming close, we weren't able to accomplish that goal. That IS racing. You don't always get want you want....somebody's got to lose....all the cliches work here.

Being in the final in Lane 5, we didn't get pissed off, we didn't sulk, we didn't sand-bag it, we raced. The reality of the course is, in order to win out of 5 in a higher division final, you really have to be a team that's unstoppable. The only crew that might be able to accomplish it would be MCC.

I think realrocket really does have something with his idea. Flipping the teams in a 2 race Final would really seem like a good way to find out who is the top crew. And as another poster mentioned, it is a great way to develop some rivalries too.

Imps Shmimps.

I can't believe there are still people out there carrying the Imp torch.


The Imps are saving themselves for the Island.

two of the worst waters, the Island and Ontario Place, bring out the most conversations on who is the best team. These two races should be regulated to fun races such as Stratford because of the water. In fact DB'ers sound pretty stupid argueing when in the previous paragraph they talk about lanes 4-5 and how it is impossible to win. If you want real racing go to Sudbury, Welland or Stouffville where the water is deep, lanes are wide and no silliness can account for good paddling.

No offense, but I looked at the Welland times and Imps via the protest got into the A final. However Hanalei still posted a faster time than them in the A consolation which they won in the 500M. So saying the Imps could have won everything is a crock. Sorry not the Imps are not the same team they used to be and everyone else is getting faster.

GWN went half way towards recognizing the lane bias issue last year when they moved to the two-heat qualifying format for Saturday. But on Sunday they still revert to bizarro Franken-seeding. Why, if you're already willing to abandon a traditional middle-out rationale by placing the top qualifiers in lane 2, wouldn't you then go all the way and match seeds 1-5 with lanes 1-5? Sure, it's not standard practice, but they’ve already abandoned standard practice and this would be a simpler, fairer way of doing it.

Way too many 3rd seeded teams won finals out of lane 1 for this to be a coincidence. Remember that those teams earned lane 1 in final by finishing 2nd in the lower-ranked of two semi-finals. Lane bias in the order of 1-5 is obviously big enough that amongst similar crews it determines outcomes more often than not.

I realize I take a very large chance by not posting as an anonymous here. There will be those who will make cracks at my grammar, spelling, or what have you. I don’t kare … (care) This is what I have to say….

GWN in my mind was a well runned event, with no delays, as a matter of… my fact, they were ahead of schedule. Volunteers of the event did an astounding job ensuring that things ran smoothly.

Yes there were a number of factors that played with some of the outcomes in the races. But really….you have to deal with it…..or go home I suppose…..we can all go on and on trashing ourselves…..there’s even a thread as you read this, commenting on this very issue.

Big Fish, you have proven to me over the years that you are a classy bunch…..some may not think that…(but that’s your 2 cents, not mine)

Congrats to all the from A to L

All teams, Regardless of lanes, put out 110 % into each and every race…..Yes, my team earned Ln 4, As fishy said… we didn’t “sulk”, we knew what we had ahead of ourselves, but I’m sure that every team in Lane 4, 5 in the top 40 give it them all…….

You know what… sorry, the top 120 teams of the Regatta gave it them all…. But this is what we had earned, and what we all had to played with……

I guess now its just a game of “what if”….

What if the organizers realized the lane bias….but you know what, the days will go forward, and this 11th Great White North Regatta will down in archives.

Go ahead forum trashers…..this is what you live for…..but for those who know what I’m trying to get across…."good on you mate".

DO IT … DO IT … DO IT..

BD

BD,

What language are you using to post? It vaguely resembles English, and yet it's so different.

By the way, just because you give your initials as "BD" it doesn't mean that you're not posting anonymously.

Also, I think that you're trying to make a point here, but I fail to see exactly what it is.

How can you say with a straight face that you are holding GWN responsible for the lane depth at Ontario Place? That’s like holding GM/Ford/Toyota for the pot holes on the 401.

Do you seriously think that GWN will pay to have the Ontario Place canal dredged for your convenience? How about having the TCBA dredge the Island race? And while they're at it, why not have them build a bridge?

GWN Challenge has:
Great lane markings
Great officials
Location Location Location
Medals
GREAT BOATS
Totally Open Divisions

What else do you need them to provide? Gas at $0.50 per litre for your Hyundai?

Call up your MP, MPP and City Hall Councilor and complain about the depth of the water.

Great medals?I heard that they ran out of medals and didn't give them out to all the womens division winners.
Lanes suck and it made the final rather predictable and disappointing.Not as many venders as previous years.

What happened to the Gatorade table???

"Do you seriously think that GWN will pay to have the Ontario Place canal dredged for your convenience?"

No, I think GWN will not have the Ontario Place course dredged. Ever. Not as long as 120+ teams are still willing to race there. It doesn't make financial sense.

But it's not a matter of convenience , it's a matter of walking the walk and talking the talk. If you at all proport to support sport racing then the Ontario Place course COULD have been dredged years ago, and maybe the 2006 CCWC's would have been held there.

Really, why not?

Too bad for us, and for GWN, that they couldn't convince anyone to improve the Ontario place strip of water and turned it into a passable race course. IDBF does not require perfection for the Club Crews. Far from it. Every course used for the Club Crew Championships has been highly difficient in one way or another. Ontario Place, with a little weed cutting would be equal to any prior selection. With dredging....a dream come true.

Oh well, wind in sails.

I think the couple posters above are missing the point. There are problems with both depth and current on that course. GWN knows it. Paddlers know it. There's really nothing that can be done about it.

However GWN has already taken steps to make qualifying more fair. Now all they have to do is adjust the sunday lane seeding so that the top qualifiers are rewarded with the fastest lanes in semis and finals. The course is imperfect and always will be, but a few pain-free improvements to the sunday schedule would reduce the impact of the lane bias.

Being the top seed doesn't mean you should be given an advantage over other teams, at least, not the kind of obvious advantage as that you get from a faster lane. Why don't you just award the championship based on seeding? Why not just run time trials?

I see what people are getting at when they say to put the top seed into the fastest lane, but that's based upon the idea that the lanes are gravely unbalanced, which is an unacceptable flaw to start with.

The only solution is to fix the course. Otherwise just deal with it as-is.

Strictly speaking, with PD's corrections to the True Rankings yet to come, this analysis isn't fair but I don't think things will shift all that much. Seeding aside, we all knew what we were getting into w