Would you throw a race to end up in a lower division just to win it?
If Yes! Why?

Or what do you think of crews that would do this just for some hardware.


Let’s keep this discussion clean please refrain from using individual or crew names.

Someone has clean sour grapes?

Were you stung by this strategy?

discuss

It says to me that you care more about a crappy medal that you could buy for $2 than dragon boat racing. I would find it particularly strange if top crews were to do this given the amount of time they invest in training. I don't think this happens too much anymore.

However, dogging it to get the best lane and winning the final I'm all for

I know of a team that was a legitimate "A" team that would throw a race if they knew they couldn't win it all so they could win a lower division. Their reasoning was that they needed to bring something back to a sponsor who put big money into their team. Didn't want to risk getting no hardware in "A" divsion then getting at least a plaque or trophy in "B" division.

That's a business strategy

That seems a little less terrible...

i would think it would sound better to sponsors to tell them "we placed 5th overall" instead of "we came first in C division and here's the hardware to prove it" if you are capable and should have placed 5th overall.

Tell me where I can join this team with a sponsor, I'll take that team anyday. My team is full of veterans who brings in ringers and displaces the younger people who are fitter and stronger. I'm tired of being spared and going to tiny festivals where we beat beginner teams. I'm ashamed to even wear the uniform at those regattas.

I'd rather be in a team that can turn it on when they want to and back it down if need be. Plus being sponsored is a plus, more money for me to spend instead of begging banks and businesses to sponsor us because we are a not for profit group or going to crap festivals for prize money. We wind up losing anyway and spending a decent coin on a crap festival is such a waste of time and money.

Our sponsor has too many trophies and often travels with us, they only care when we beat a renown crew. They only care about being as best you can be and wouldn't want the crew to dumb down to win medals.

After a while all the medals look the same.

I have been on a team before that had a very full roster which meant a lot of effort had to go into making sure everyone had the same number of races and that the boat was set-up for success at the most critical time. The crew was by and large a novice crew with 2 or 3 experienced people.
Our plan was to have the weakest combination out first and steadily increase the strength of the crew so that it was strongest for the final (the exeperienced people had the least number of races, but they were at the end) The expected result from this strategy was that we would end up in a slower final that we would have a very good chance of winning (with a novice crew at their first big regatta, there is some benefit to having some success).

This backfired as the weaker crew put in an awesome performance, that the stronger crew struggled to surpass, so we ended up in a higher divison then expected (and lost).

All this to say that, there may be other reasons why a team appears to qualify for a slower final.

Wow, so many unique issues for each team. I thought mine was the only one. I'd like to hear more.

Anything less than an all-out effort every single race is lame. If you're more focussed on outcome than process in an activity like DB where winning is only meaningful when its accompanied by your best effort, then your priorities are messed up. Then again, I've never raced on a team that had such a valuable sponsor that we felt the need to bring back a trophy to show them.

"Then again, I've never raced on a team that had such a valuable sponsor that we felt the need to bring back a trophy to show them."

Bud if you only knew....

The fact that teams are willing to paddle below their abilities just to get into a lower division so they can win is sad and is one of the reasons this sport will not be taken seriously in the paddling community.

This sport will not be taking seriously!??!!? wtf is that!

STOP being so serious.

"Anything less than an all-out effort every single race is lame."


I agree 101%

"This sport will not be taking seriously!??!!? wtf is that!

STOP being so serious."

You know, there are some people who train hard and dedicate a fair amount of time. Those people I'm sure would like dragon boat racing to be considered a sport and to be respected as one of the paddling disciplines.

It is quite common to see people throwing races in the Olympics so they can get medals in a lower division.

...oh wait.

i agree - less than 100% is lame. I have always thought that giving away medals anywhere outside of of A division was kind of silly, and i chuckle when people celebrate these medals. If I finish say, 11th overall out of a field of 150 top teams I get nothing, but the team in say 73rd (1st in L) division gets a 'gold' medal, and celebrates.

If I am on a novice team, I celebrate when we do better than expected or show improvement, or raced our best race. I don't celebrate the 'medal'.

If I am on a competitive, I feel the same, but I'd rather say we got 7th or 13th or 19th out of 120 teams than Gold in "B", "C" or "D" division.

The sport is already now recognized.
http://www.dragonboatcanada.org/documents/gaisf.pdf
So enough with the "Taken Seriously" arguments. Its getting old.

Teams in A division probably no longer partake in this strategy,in they have already seen there share of medals going up the ranks from H division upward.

I agree that it may sometimes be a business decision.

I'd never tell a crew to throw a race but I have to decide which of the races I want my best roster out of the 3 races (assuming it is one day event with 3 races). If I don't think my team has a hope in hell in winning the event then I'll set up my first roster as the best to get into the highest division possible and hope for the best in the next 2 races. If my team is strong enough for "A" division then I'll set my strongest roster for the final and weaker for the qualifier and the semi. This sometimes backfires though. It's about race strategy to advance based on how well you think you will do going into a race. Everyone has to race and no one sits more than 1.

To the coach's point of view. I don’t see your decision as throwing a race. That’s just straight up race Strategy.

That's baloney, that's also dumbing down to win a medal no matter what spin you put on it.

You should always put your best crew in the water unless injuries occur.
As one of the previous poster states you should always race your best and at 110%.

"That's baloney, that's also dumbing down to win a medal no matter what spin you put on it."



Go back and re-read the coach's post, he only puts his weaker roster in the first races if he feels confident that that crew will get him into the A final. He rests his strongest to give the best shot at winning A. This is miles away from the theme of this thread which is holding off to win a medal in a lower divison.

"You should always put your best crew in the water unless injuries occur."

So what's it like paddling on a crew with only 20 paddlers and no spares? Because that is what you will end up with if you don't give everyone some race time.

" I have always thought that giving away medals anywhere outside of of A division was kind of silly, and i chuckle when people celebrate these medals"

This might be valid for the 20 or so competitive teams that are much more dedicated and are only focussed on being number 1, however for the other 80 (or more) teams at the festival, this is icing on the cake to top off their 2-3 practices and races. I think that while the competitive teams might look down on these people in N division wearing funny clothes and crossing the line in just under 4 minutes with a big cheer, their opinion might change after a season where there are only competitive teams at the festivals.

Hope your sponsor has deep pockets

We almost never have spares so fortunately (unfortunately?!) we don't have to deal with that challenge!

I've seen other teams sandbag it and this really does annoy me. This affects the teams they will be racing in the lower division, in that they are racing against an unevenly matched boat. It also affects the team that should have been in the lower division and got artificially pushed into the higher division (and also the legitimate higher division teams who will have to race against a lower calibre team).

Personally, I'd much rather be fifth place overall in a festival, racing in the A final and getting no hardware, than placing 13th overall and getting a gold in the B finals (or L finals, LOL).

"We almost never have spares so fortunately (unfortunately?!) we don't have to deal with that challenge!"

And if you did have to deal with it would you still put your best crew each and everytime so the same people sit all races? Or do you actually then strategize? Go with best crew first then slowly get worse or worst crew first then slowly get better?

In the perfect world you have tryouts at the beginning of the season and cut down to your top 20 paddlers who do all of your 6 to 8 races throughout the season and give the best possible effort. Reality is that not everyone attends every race 100% of the time and you have to deal with your spares. And you have to develop them for the following year when turnovers occur.

what we do is balance the "A" crew with the spares so there isn't a decrease in paddling level. We then throw our starters in final, that typically always ensures that we wind up in the level we are aiming for.
We only swap 1-2 spares at a time.

But I agree that most good crews will put in their "A" roster for at least one of the first qualifying heats (depending on race format) to ensure that they make whatever cut-line has been established, bet it top 6, top 12, top 24 etc. Then they can put in a softer version of the roster for the next qualifying race, if there is one, or for a quarter or semi-final as circumstances permit. Then it's back to your absolute best for the final, unless you've tanked it already and don't really care.

Where things get difficult is if your first heat doesn't get you where you need to be, and now you have to go back to the "A" roster again. Too many of your secondary paddlers are now sitting too many races, and you can see things get tense in your team area.

It's a tough balancing act: results versus fairness, and results versus an eye to the future.

I think you nailed it

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