What's your take on having at 50+ age division at the Worlds? Isn't a 40+ division enough? Or is there enough interest to warrant a 50+ division?

I'm younger but I actually think that there is alot of interest in this category. If you watch worlds there are different countries which excel in the Grandmaster category and the Senior category. China is great at the grandmaster level, but not Senior. Countries like ours (Canada) are good at both (but we're good at everything).

At worlds there actually is a lot of athletes for these different divsions. Senior is much more competetive and the Canadian Senior team was the fastest team at all of Worlds.

"China is great at the grandmaster level, but not Senior. Countries like ours (Canada) are good at both (but we're good at everything).

At worlds there actually is a lot of athletes for these different divsions. Senior is much more competetive and the Canadian Senior team was the fastest team at all of Worlds."

The Chinese seniors are the best in the world (Shun De). China has not raced Grand Master at the world's yet.

The Canadian Senior team was very good (and went to Sydney to race Shun De, who did not show up). The Canadian Senior team was not the fastest team (assuming you mean including Premier crews) at the competition.

Please tell me that the post at July 5 2008, 8:15 PM is a joke. It possibly contains the most factual errors in the history of this forum.

Let's examine!


(1) <<...I actually think that there is alot of interest in this category.>>

Really? There were just four Grandmasters Open teams at the Worlds. There were just three Grandmasters Women team at the Worlds. That's not much interest, is it?


(2) <<...If you watch worlds there are different countries which excel in the Grandmaster category and the Senior category.>>

The top three teams in the Grandmasters Open were Canada, US, Australia. (Those same three countries sent the only entries to the Grandmasters women races, too.) So who excelled at the Senior level? Canada, Australia, US. So although you claim that different teams excel at the Grandmaster category vs. the Senior category, the same three teams were the top three in both categories.


(3) <<...China is great at the grandmaster level, but not Senior.>>

Huh???? China didn't enter a team in the Grandmaster category nor the Senior category.


(4) <<...At worlds there actually is a lot of athletes for these different divisions.>>

Actually, no. As stated above, there were only four Grandmaster Open teams (and one was Italy, who was so uncompetitive that it's hard to consider that team to be serious athletes!) -- and just three Grandmaster Womens teams. Even the Senior category didn't draw too many teams, with just six countries sending a total of nine Senior Open teams. The Senior women? Just four countries sent a total of seven teams.


(5) <<Canadian Senior team was the fastest team at all of Worlds.>>

Although the Canadian Senior team dominated their races, there were at least six Premier Open teams faster than the Canadian Senior team.

it appeared that some of sun-de ,if not all had switched over to the premier division .Looking at the chinese open team the majority appeared over 40

Any 50+ paddler with real talent still races in the Senior (40+) category. The Grandmasters at Sydney were a waste of time.

"The Chinese seniors are the best in the world (Shun De)".
You've got to race to be called the best...that's why we have world championships.

When the Senior division started it was a 'joke'. Three teams I believe in England in 1999. Now it's extremely competitive. All sorts of sports have age groups. Don't forget there is women's division too. And mixed.

Of course we could cancel everything else and stick with just the open.

"The Chinese seniors are the best in the world (Shun De)".
You've got to race to be called the best...that's why we have world championships.

Shun De raced in Berlin and won every senior race except the mixed 200. They have not competed at the world championships since.

I agree they are not the current world champions (you have to race at the world's to be the world champions) but that does not mean they are not the best.

DB is still relatively new as a sport. As the paddlers who go through Premier,Senior and there are more of them over the years, many want to continue paddling at a high level. Senior 50 is a perfect venue. The quality is already high compared to 2005. The Canadian GM open in Australia posted a 1:57 in the 500. Other countries have not developed this progression as we have. Generally the number of countries participating at the worlds is declining. I think cost of travel might be significant.
Anyway some thoughts.

I remember when Larry Cain won his Olympic Gold in 1984 and people wondered if he was "the best" because of some countries being absent. The fact of the matter is that he showed up and did the job. He did not worry about "could'a, would'a". He was the best in the world, end of story.

Unless you race, you are only "the best" as a fantasy pick.

That's what it means to win the worlds...the rest is just conjecture.

Larry was the Olympic champion. He was the best athlete in his event at the LA Olympics.

However, in many sports that are not as influenced by weather conditions, there are individuals who hold world records and are acknowledged as the fastest ever. They may not be Olympic champions. But they are world record holders.

A world or Olympic champion is someone who was the best at the world or Olympic event. That isn't necessarily the same as the best in the world. Remember the Australian speed skater who won gold when the athletes ahead of him collided? He was the Olympic champion, deservedly so. However, no one suggested that he was now the best in the world, and would be expected to win every subsequent competition.

We're not talking about the fastest, we're talking about the best. Being the best is about performance under pressure when it counts, dealing with the moment, sometimes at less than an ideal time. If a crew is not present, then regardless of how fast they are, they cannot be called the best, as I see it. If you don't have some objectivity through competition results in naming the best, then why compete at a worlds?

Shun De was the best in 2005, not in 2007.

<<When the Senior division started it was a 'joke'. Three teams I believe in England in 1999. Now it's extremely competitive. All sorts of sports have age groups. Don't forget there is women's division too. And mixed. >>


Please.

The Senior division is not "extremely competitive". There were only six countries in Sydney who sent Senior teams of ANY kind -- whether Open, Mixed, or Womens. Just six countries.

No need for 50+ when the Senior division itself has a mediocre turnout.

How many premier countries?

if this sport ever goes to the olympics (not sure if it ever will), i'd bet my money on how there will only be mens, womens, and an open division. Ages won't matter. That said, i've got nothing against having a grand masters division. these guys were paddling well before most people were born, and hopefully one day so will some of us youngsters.

<<How many premier countries?>>

There were 15 countries represented in the Premier division in Sydney.

If the Senior division was introduced in 1999, and there were only six countries represented in the Senior division in Sydney eight years later, it's hard to imagine much growth in an even older age group, the Grandmasters. At the very least, the IDBF should stop awarding bronze and silver medals to teams that compete against only two or three other teams. It turns the Worlds into Little League sports in the U.S.: yay, everyone gets a trophy!!

8 sr open, 9 sr mixed, 5 sr women, 3 grand master open, 3 grand master mixed - number sr & mixed crews provisional entries for upcoming European Championships in Italy. Srs & grands are making good growth in Europe, but hampered by travel costs and other interests.

As more db'ers who grew up with the sport get older, this category will probably grow. Of course, if db was to miraculously make it into the Olympics, you'd only see the mainstream "premier" age categories. Even Olympic sports don't have a senior category. Those older, still competitive athletes, usually compete in Masters events which don't get the press of an Olympics or regular World Championships.

We see a lot of 40+ athletes still competing in the premier category from Europe. GB, Russian and Czech premier opens are good examples. I suppose it's tougher to organize on a club level, as clubs usually have only a handful of particular age groups. It's maybe a bit easier to get srs & grands together if you have a whole nation of paddlers to select from for a national team.

I agree with the comment of being the best in the world on when it counts. On when you're totally under pressure. I think the best example is donovan bailey. He killed it in 1995 at the world championsips where he was not thought as of the best in th world because most of the top americans weren't there and he hadn't done it in record time. He proved the track world wrong again on US soil in 1996 in 9.84s. Awesome!!!

<<8 sr open, 9 sr mixed, 5 sr women, 3 grand master open, 3 grand master mixed - number sr & mixed crews provisional entries for upcoming European Championships in Italy. Srs & grands are making good growth in Europe, but hampered by travel costs and other interests.>>

That's not bad. Does each country get one entry per division, or two?

With the Worlds in Prague, the Senior division could be very competitive. But it looks like the Worlds will be lucky to have 5 Grandmasters teams in Prague.

<<As more db'ers who grew up with the sport get older, this category will probably grow.>>

I've heard this reasoning before, but it seems flawed because it assumes that similar interest in the sport will remain as paddlers reach the age of 50+. The attrition rate of any sport skyrockets as people get older because of chronic injuries and other life commitments/changes, especially at the most competitive levels. I think the 40+ category will continue to do OK. But if the European championships can't attract more than three 50+ teams in its own region, where is the growth in the grandmasters?

DB is a realtively new sport and as such is just starting to gain momentum at all levels. At the moment there is more interest in the Senior and Grand Master level than there is at the Junior level. Will you start suggesting that Juniors & the new Under 23 class be dropped as well. Or is it only the thought of competitive older athletics that bothers you? What happened did your team get beat by a team of Seniors or Grand Masters? If so maybe the problem is with you and not them. Grow up.

Relax. I'm just analyzing the demographics at the Worlds. There are tons of people of all ages participating in this sport. If local festivals want to have a GM division, so be it. But fewer paddlers participate at the most elite level (Worlds), and the IDBF is pushing credulity with the 50+ division at the Worlds, considering the lack of interest in Sydney and the upcoming European championships.

You make a misleading claim by writing "there is more interest in the Senior and Grand Master level than there is at the Junior level." In Sydney, seven countries sent Junior teams -- even though most (all?) of those countries had already begun their school year. If anything, the Juniors had an excuse for not showing (school!) -- but they still made a decent showing. Only six countries sent Senior teams. Four countries sent GM's.

BTW, I don't like the U23 at the Worlds either. I don't see enough interest at the Worlds level to start this division. I like the Junior division, but even that's being considered to be split into an U18 and an U16 category.

Sure, it would be great to have full participation at the Worlds in every conceivable division. But when there aren't enough teams in a given category to warrant at least one full heat (6+ teams), then the whole category should be scrapped until enough interest grows to support it.

U-23's (same as grand masters, etc.) was introduced at the behest of IDBF member countries, via a democratic process in the IDBF (proposal, motion, vote in Council, vote in AGA), so it was in response to a need from paddlers. (If the need changes, the same process can be used to address the changes.)

Apparently there was concern that U-23's needed special attention. Paddlers between 18-23 are roughly the age range for university sports (such as rowing, football, etc. - you get the picture), so it helps address an interesting group of athletes. Seing as the premiers have tended to attract more mature paddlers in the mid-20's to mid-30's age group and junior paddling is growing but is a relatively short-lived age group (so many physical changes in those few years) the U-23 category was developed to fill the gap between junior level paddling and premier level paddling. U-23's haven't yet developed the mature frame and muscle groups of the slightly older, more mature paddler, nor do they have the race and training experience that can give an edge to a slightly older paddler. Rather than have them "fall out of the boat" so to speak, the category allows them to compete in a group of peers. It doesn't stop U-23's from paddling in a premier team - there are a handful of U-23's, quite a few 40+ers and even 50+ers who have qualified for premier crews. But it should give younger paddlers a place to continue to develop in the gap between junior level and premier level and keep them interested in the sport.

As for one respondent's call for scrapping the grand masters, this is still a relatively new category (someone else will have to help out here with the year the category was introduced into the IDBF) so give it time. Although it is true that as one ages, there can be health and injury concerns, we are reaching healthier older ages. While the number of grand master crews will probably never reach the number of premier crews it is nevertheless a growth area.

Luckily, we paddlers have chosen a sport that is in many ways more physically forgiving than running, for instance. We may have repetitive strain type injuries, but our joints don't take the same kind of pounding that a runner's joints take (water is a lot more forgiving than asphalt) and we don't have the contact injuries of sports like football and hockey (at least not on purpose!). The number of older athletes is likely to grow in many sports. Some countries have national multi-sport masters championships (Australia comes to mind) to address that niche. It could also be an interesting target group for sponsors looking to market to fit, active 40+ and 50+ers. Eventually, I envision that the Premier categories will be so well-attended that there will be a need for separate championships for Jr's & U-23's and for Srs & Masters - if nothing else, for logistical reasons as our huge dragon boat crews put a lot of limitations on venues.

<<Eventually, I envision that the Premier categories will be so well-attended that there will be a need for separate championships for Jr's & U-23's and for Srs & Masters - if nothing else, for logistical reasons as our huge dragon boat crews put a lot of limitations on venues.>>

Graybeard, you have the highest and noblest of intentions. But your assuming that the sport will grow so much that we will need 2-3 separate World Championships is hard to fathom, considering that participation at the last several Worlds showed little growth, and perhaps even a decline in Sydney (perhaps as a result of its remote location for many teams).

Thank you Graybeard for being a voice of reason in this debate - nice change from the rest. Paddle hard.

Anyone who has attended the last few world's knows the reality...the World's are a joke. The participation is scarce, the competition thin and the participants limited to those with wallets thick enough to make the trip. Canada is fortunate in that, given our depth, we have equally competitive racing on our home turf. Save your money and forget your asprirations to be 'National Team' and enjoy the great racing to be had in your own neighbourhood. And have more fun.

if this sport ever made it to the olympics i think there would be a mens, womens, and mixed divisions. No seperation by age.

Grand Masters was introduced as a demonstration category in Berlin 2005. There were three countries represented. USA,Canada and Italy. Canada swept the Women's division which also included a 1000 meter event. Strange that the 1000 was not on for Australia. In the Open Canada won the 200 and the 1000 and was second in the 500. Canada won the mixed 500 and was second in the 200. Times were reasonably good eg Open 500 in 2:06 1000 in 4:18. Two years later the times were considerably faster. Canada won the 500 Open in 1:57 and I believe the 500 mixed went in 2:01. Good quality racing in Australia. There were 4 countries represented. Hard to say how this division will develop. The Europeans should have good teams at this level but they don't show up for the world's in great numbers. China doesn't seem interested at this time.

Hi There all you youngsters.

So you really want to stop paddling when you reach the ancient age of 50? You know life goes on. You don't just magically end up in a wheelchair at age 50. There is more to life than just the "fastest" time.

No one said paddlers should stop paddling at the age of 50. The lack of a separate age group shouldn't stop people from competing. Lots of paddlers over 50 years old can make good contributions to a club crew. Doesn't Mayfair have at least 5 paddlers over 50 years old, competing in the Premier races? The CSDC also has lots of paddlers over 50, and they are always A Division finalists.

Yes, but the issue here is whether countries can send a full boat of 50+ to the Worlds. So far, there has been little interest.

I think there should be three divisions - junior, premier, and senior.

I agree but if there are only 3 categories they need to be larger categories.

Junior has to go up to something like 23-25
Premier can be any age
Senior 40+ or maybe 45+


If our sport ever becomes an olympic one there will simply be men's, women's and mixed.

I agree - but would make Junior start at 18 and prefer senior at 40.

Let's make it happen. Viva la revolution!

At races today in Tampa, one team had an average age of 70!!!! The Hawthorne Dragonflies. They looked great! Keep the Grant Masters Division......am looking forward to the future.

Oh, please. They looked great for 70-year olds, that's all. They would get creamed at the Worlds -- if they ever qualified.

When someone tells you that they play a sport, any sports, and in a SENIOR category. What age do you think would come to mind? 40+??? Give me a break! I would say 50+ or maybe 45+ (team average then maybe 50). Therefore, grand dragons would be 60+ or maybe 55+. For now none of the seniors is allowed senior discounts at McD, Shoppers, any admission discounts... So 40+ to qualify as senior is rediculous.

"Senior" is equivalent to the masters category. At the world masters games, for some sports you can be eligible as young as 25 years old (e.g. gymnastics). The age categories are usually defined based on the age where it is not reasonable to expect an athlete to be able to continue to compete successfully with the younger athletes.

There will always be exceptions, but as an older paddler I know that no matter how hard I train I can't compete with a younger paddler with similar technical abilities and similar time on the water.

The Grand Masters turnout was disapointing in Sydney BUT the above posts have the numbers wrong ; 5 mixed (Can. , US , Aus, Italy Germany) , 4 open , 3 women. I believe the GM men would have medaled in Senior based on time.

<<I believe the GM men would have medaled in Senior based on time.>>

100% wrong. Check the times.

If this sport ever makes the olympics, i doubt there will be a mixed division. do any other olympic sports have a category like this? I personally don't think that there should be a mixed division at Worlds either. It should be a strictly club category. It doesn't really prove anything as there are already womens and open races.

As far as age categories go, i think the problem is that most other countries mainly care about premier as we've heard stories about china and US sacrificing senior boats for the open. meanwhile canada probably had quite a few seniors that could have helped the premier that raced only in senior. Maybe it isnt that other countries couldn't be as competitive in older categories, they just have different priorities

"If this sport ever makes the olympics"...

Get real! Why do people persist in pretending that the Olympics will add an obscure sport that requires adding at least 20 people to the Olympic team at a time when they are trying to reduce Olympic team sizes???

"personally don't think that there should be a mixed division at Worlds either. It should be a strictly club category. It doesn't really prove anything as there are already womens and open races."

I disagree with this. I think Mixed racing is the heart of the sport, and it's something that helps make Dragon boat racing unique.

I agree about with the comment about the Olympics, though. No, dragon boat racing will never be part of the Olympics. If it didn't make it as a demo sport for Beijing it never will. Teams are too big, which is a problem at the buffet.

I don't think obscurity is an issue. There are plenty of obscure sports at the Olympics. (modern pentathlon? triple-jump?) Dragon boat racing is pretty wide-spread, and is more popular than many current Olympic sports. Hell, they still keep Women's Hockey in the Olympics despite the fact there are only about 7 countries in the world who have serious Women's hockey programs. So it's SIZE that's the problem, not obscurity.

But about Mixed racing, I think at the World's they should officially make it 10/10. It only makes sense, and mixed racing around the world would follow that example soon after. The IDBF could make it happen if they wanted.

You need to differentiate between obscure sports that are already in the Olympics (since their inception) and new obscure sports. It is tougher for them to remove a sport with a long Olympic history than to reject a wannabe sport that is mainly known for breast cancer teams and fun festivals.

Not crazy about the "wannabe" label, but otherwise I think you're right.