These rules will become Section IV, item 11 (with subsequent renumbering of current Section IV items 11 and 12).
11. Digital Camera Usage
In events that allow usage of digital photos, the following rules shall apply
to riders choosing to submit digital photos for scoring:
A. All photos submitted must be on a digital camera storage card. TeamStrange utilizes card readers capable of reading the following formats & types of storage cards: CompactFlash (CF), SmartMedia, xD, Memory Stick (MS), SecureDigital (SD), MultiMedia (MMC).
B. Rider cameras and computers will not be connected to TeamStrange computers or other equipment at any time during the scoring process.
C. Camera storage cards may be of any size memory the rider wishes.
Multiple cards may be submitted if necessary due to card memory size
or photo volume.
D. All digital photos submitted must be of a size between 1024x768 and 640x480 pixels.
E. All digital photos are to be imprinted with a date & time stamp.
The photo date & time stamp is to be set to the time zone of the rally start location for the entire rally.
F. Riders will have the opportunity during the event check-in process to test their camera storage cards on TeamStrange equipment to ensure proper operation.
G. Riders will be allowed to submit one photo for each bonus claimed.
No other photos for that bonus will be considered.
H. Camera storage cards submitted are treated the same as any other photos submitted on the rally and become the property of TeamStrange.
I. Events will have two scoring procedures—Polaroid and digital. Riders must decide which photo format they wish to use for the scoring process.
Use of multiple photo types (i.e. digital & Polaroid) on the same route sheet will not be accepted.
J. TeamStrange accepts no responsibility for photo storage cards that are lost, damaged, or in any way unusable. In the event that photos can not be obtained from the riders’ photo storage card during the scoring process, riders will be tentatively scored a zero for unsubstantiated photo bonuses claimed on that leg. When time allows, a reasonable number of attempts will be made to obtain information off of the riders submitted photo storage card. If the judges deem the card to be unusable, the rider will receive zero points for all unverified photos.
K. All digital photos submitted for scoring shall be in the format as
originally recorded by the camera, with no post-processing, editing,
manipulation, alteration, cropping, resizing, or enhancement applied.
L. TeamStrange reserves the right to use submitted photos in future promotion of events or in any other ways it sees fit.
For laying some solid ground rules on the picture dilemma. We have been discussing this at GLMC meetings, and will be observing to see how well this works.
If you compare the price of a 10 or 20 pack of Polariod film to the price of a memory card, it's not all that different.
Eddie, can you clarify one section:
"E. All digital photos are to be imprinted with a date & time stamp.
The photo date & time stamp is to be set to the time zone of the rally start location for the entire rally."
In many digital cameras, the date imprint funtion is available when you print from the camera directly to a printer, perhaps through a USB cable. This function provides an overlay of the date/time information when the picture is reserved for printing, typically with a format/capability like DPOF (http://panasonic.jp/dc/dpof_110/white_e.htm).
The picture date/time information is usually stored in EXIF metadata for each picture (EXIF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exif) and is part of the digital characteristics of the picture when transferred to a PC, but this metadata is usually not imprinted visually onto the picture; that's usually a manual post-processing step you would do in an application like Photoshop.
In other words, copying the image files from the digital card to a PC will include date and time information, but not usually as an imprint on the digital image itself.
So the question is - does the date and time information that accompanies each picture through EXIF or DCOP metadata satisfy the above section E?
David Derrick's letter to NSR riders this morning delivered via the private Yahoo Group has some pertinent information in my opinion:
The only reason it seems that every rallymaster is making it up the rules as they go along, is because they are!
It's the intent of the NSR to try to simplify the process by asking for less from whatever camera each rider may use. There are a number of reasons we ended up at this conclusion, most importantly speed of down loading at the end of the rally. The VGA size (640x480) was only called out to make it easy for a non-camera-minded person to find a common size which the rally staff would like to see used to prevent motel wi-fi gridlock when 100 riders start down loading bonus photos, all at the same time. This does not mean that VGA (640x480) is the only aspect ratio that would provide an efficient file size for down loading. 800x600 and maybe even 1024x768 can be set to make small enough "jpeg" file sizes IF the particular camera model has adjustable picture quality settings.
The real problem is that using a Polaroid based system was so damn easy.
It appears that camera manufactures like to use features like aspect ratio and picture quality as a way to not only distinguish one brand from another, but also to distinguish different cameras within a manufacture's line. So if we look at 100 different cameras there may be 50 different ways to set up the picture size in terms of "jpeg" file size.
We are as frustrated as you are about the confusion.
Like we saw in the WORD, I'm sure you will see other rallies that will take a Low Tech approach to the process of scoring. This will just add to the variety of ways to play the game. With the NSR rally, we are trying to make a global system that presents less hassle to the riders by using an all digital format including scoring. All new things can make people feel uncomfortable until all the bugs are worked out. Trust us, we are trying harder than you might imagine. The real benefit of rider self-scoring is going to be that it will be much faster and simpler for the riders in the end.
For now it would be good to shoot us any questions you have about you current camera.
The NSR is looking for a picture size of about 640x480 or 800x600 with a Standard or Low picture quality setting. Take some photos at the size you can make, at or near the above spec, and try to down load them at the practice self scoring page on the rally website.
Who are you and why do you keep on coming on the TS website just to talk about your event? and for that matter, who cares how another rally is doing something? it has no affect on the TS event being discussed.
Because of the demise of Polaroid, actually it does matter. It is just plain stupid for 10 LD rallies to have 10 different rules.
8 years ago most digital cameras could be set to burn the date / time stamp on the "jpeg" image. Today, virtually no plus $150 digital camera will do that.
And tomorrow?
Also, 640x480 digital images are more difficult to successfully Photoshop than say 5.0 megapixel images, butt I don't really believe cheating will be an issue so why not use the EXIF data?
Jim Puckett
Rider # 667 in the MN1K this weekend
Cape Girardeau, MO
> Because of the demise of Polaroid, actually it does matter. It is just plain stupid for 10 LD rallies to have 10 different rules.
If that's truly your concern, shouldn't your questions/comments then be directed to other rallymasters---the people who actually make the rules---rather then here in this thread?
It does no good to interject rules from another event into the discussion. That event's rules don't mean anything for the event in question.
I'll agree with the earlier post--it's just another of your repetetive attempts to promote something of yours using the TS website. Something you've never even had the decency to ask if it was ok to do, by the way.
While we're generally pretty supportive of the LD / mc community, your manners leave a little to be desired.
I had originally planned to stay with Polaroid this year, but since it has to go digital eventually, I had decided to use Digital. My plan had been to back my digital camera up to my Lap-Top durring rest bonus stops, maybe more often. Then worse case, I could burn a CD for the scoring folks. I had also planned on carrying a spare USB cable so that if my memory card didn't like being read, the scorer could get my images from the camera via USB. I kinda figured that way I had original and a back-up of all of my pictures, and I had three different ways to move the data. From what I read above, the only way images will be accepted is from memory cards? If that is true, the only way to have "legal" back-ups it to either have two digital cameras, (with separate memory cards) or to remove your memory card and take the picture again with a second (different) card installed.
Do I understand correctly, the only way we can turn in our images is from a memory card? (or use polaroid)
Snod, couldn't you still do your backups as planned, then just arrange the photos you want the RallyBastards to see, and copy them to your soon-never-be-seen-again SD cards?
Doesn't arranging and copying those pics at the end of a rally sound like fun? Oh, let me count the ways I could screw this up.
To the RallyBastards, would you allow the photos to be viewed on the participant's computer (not hooked up in any way to RB equipment)? It would be like viewing a polaroid, no? Then backup would be easy, and photos not needed for scoring could be easily scrolled past. Then a CD all of the photos could be burned and handed in, preserving the SD card for the next leg of rally. It would be specially nice if the RBs had a huge stack of blank cds for use of the paying participants.
Let's see, at least three legs, potentially four, you need at least two sd cards per leg (don't get them mixed up!). Yikes.
Me, I'm heading on down to Walmart for a bunch of polaroid film. There was still lots in Richland Center two weeks ago (for all the good it did me).
"couldn't you still do your backups as planned, then just arrange the photos you want the RallyBastards to see, and copy them to your soon-never-be-seen-again SD cards?"
I hadn't thought of using memory cards as my target device. I think you have sugested the best way to be able to have backup copies of our digital images. I suspect I will surfing ebay for affordable memory cards. One per leg and one in the camera make 5. Better have a spare for a total of six. Ebay here I come.
"couldn't you still do your backups as planned, then just arrange the photos you want the RallyBastards to see, and copy them to your soon-never-be-seen-again SD cards?"
"couldn't you still do your backups as planned, then just arrange the photos you want the RallyBastards to see, and copy them to your soon-never-be-seen-again SD cards?"
Doesn't that voilate rule #K?
rule K reads:
K. All digital photos submitted for scoring shall be in the format as
originally recorded by the camera, with no post-processing, editing,
manipulation, alteration, cropping, resizing, or enhancement applied.
I don't see any thing that says no copying, but copying could be covered under manipulation. I am beginning to suspect that the intent here is that the photos go straight from camera to scoring. Maybe we aren't supposed to "touch" them after taking them. I had figured manipulation refered to "photo shopping" the image. Pasting my face over John C's or something like that.
Can we get a ruling from the rules maker/s?
Will it be legal to make a back-up copys of bonus images? Is copying considered manipulation?
You could make copies of all your photos on your laptop if you wished.
What you couldn't do is load your photos from the camera into the laptop, then back onto another camera card to turn in at scoring.
What we're wanting is the card as it came out of the camera to drop into our card reader.
You could make copies of all your photos on your laptop if you wished.
What you couldn't do is load your photos from the camera into the laptop, then back onto another camera card to turn in at scoring.
"You could make copies of all your photos on your laptop if you wished.
What you couldn't do is load your photos from the camera into the laptop, then back onto another camera card to turn in at scoring.
How you gonna know?"
That thought crossed my mind. My first thought was, it's kinda like getting outside routing help: Its against the rules so I'm not doing it. Period. After I though about it a bit, I think the date and time that the file was written to the card will be recorded on the memory card. The date and time of the photo was taken is there also. The scorers could see that all of the files on the memory card were written to the card at the same time, and that the time the file was written doesn't match the time that the photo was taken. If your gonna break the rules that way, I suspect you will get caught.
Let me get a clear answer from out tech folks on that so
I don't get in over my head trying to discuss this one.
...
What we're trying to attain is a simple "Insert your card into the reader, look at the picture, and score" process
I think most of us (except for Coons) are in line with the intent you've stated. Just have to get the wording of the rules to match this, or get clarification as needed. i think that's why we're seeing so many questions here.
A good point was made about multi-day rallies with scoring at checkpoints. Be sure to bring more than one memory stick to the rally, and be ready to turn in a few throughout the rally.
It seems assumed/implied here that the storage cards will be left at the table but I don't actually see that worded in here. Is that the case or will the photos simply be transferred to the scoring PC's and the cards returned to the riders for use on a later leg/day? If they are in fact to be left, how many would be needed for BLIIIII?
2) With regard to "G", one photo per bonus:
In previous rallies, using Polaroids, if there was a question as to the proper picture, I have taken several and brought them all to the table with no problem. An example would be a certain 24 hour bonus in the '06 BLIIII that was closed. I took pictures of anything and everything since I could not find anything that resembled the item noted on the bonus sheet. One of the pictures was correct but I didn't know which one until sitting at the table and my scorer verified the picture was OK with other rally staff. How would this be handled with digital? Would we be able to take multiple shots and find out before scoring which "one" (if any) is the correct shot? Is there a problem with the others on the storage card? Can the extras be deleted by the camera prior to hitting the table? I also recently had a bonus with Polaroids in which the shot could not be taken as listed (such that the sign could read with the bike in the shot because of the distance along with a fence in between). As such, I took the required shot with the bike (the sign could barely be read even with a magnifying glass) and then also took a shot of the sign in the backgroud at close range (it was possible to walk there) with my towel in it and brought both to the table. No problems.
Silly maybe but I have always tried to err on the side of too much info rather than not enough. Thanks in advance!
"1) Storage Cards
It seems assumed/implied here that the storage cards will be left at the table but I don't actually see that worded in here."
Answer: See item H in initial post.
"If they are in fact to be left, how many would be needed for BLIIIII?"
Answer: I don't think we've ever had a leg of BL where the top riders turned in more than about 20-25 photos.
"2) With regard to "G", one photo per bonus:
In previous rallies, using Polaroids, if there was a question as to the proper picture, I have taken several and brought them all to the table with no problem."
Answer: Multiple Polaroid photos would still be allowed.
"One of the pictures was correct but I didn't know which one until sitting at the table and my scorer verified the picture was OK with other rally staff. How would this be handled with digital? Would we be able to take multiple shots and find out before scoring which "one" (if any) is the correct shot? Is there a problem with the others on the storage card?
EXAMPLE: bonus directs you to a windmill and references a sign about the windmill. Rider not sure if photo is of the sign or the windmill.
Answer: Option of asking questions before leaving the checkpoint.
Option of calling Rallymaster when at bonus.
Option of asking at checkpoint before going to scoring table. A RM may not look at your photo and assure you that it's correct, but can specify whether the windmill or the sign of the windmill is what is being requested.
You can take all the shots you wish.
Other photos on the card are up to you, but only first one will be considered for scoring.
"Can the extras be deleted by the camera prior to hitting the table?"
Answer: Absolutely. This is a benefit of using a digital camera.
"I also recently had a bonus with Polaroids in which the shot could not be taken as listed (such that the sign could read with the bike in the shot because of the distance along with a fence in between). As such, I took the required shot with the bike (the sign could barely be read even with a magnifying glass) and then also took a shot of the sign in the backgroud at close range (it was possible to walk there) with my towel in it and brought both to the table."
Answer: Digital photos will eliminate 99.999% of this.
The zoom in capability makes the 2nd shot unnecessary in every testing scenario we've tried.
Try it yourself comparing a polaroid and digital side by side..
We just tested in an area where a sign was 50' up on a pole at night.
The sign couldn't be be read standing there looking up at it.
Certainly wouldn't turn out on a Polaroid.
Took the photo with my cheap Canon A530 digital.
Using the screen on the camera, I was able to zoom in and read the sign.
Turned out amazingly clear on the laptop screen.
"Silly maybe but I have always tried to err on the side of too much info rather than not enough. Thanks in advance!"
"The sign couldn't be be read standing there looking up at it.
Certainly wouldn't turn out on a Polaroid.
Took the photo with my cheap Canon A530 digital."
Will there be bonus locations where it will not be possible to get the shot with a polaroid, and will this be noted for the participants so they know not to bother?
"Will there be bonus locations where it will not be possible to get the shot with a polaroid, and will this be noted for the participants so they know not to bother?"
Answer: No. there is alweays a way to get the bonus.
There will not be bonuses that are unobtainable by one camera or another.
Thanks for the response. Seems both formats have their good points. I think I'll practice a few scenarios and make my choice from there though it seems the digi switch will be inevitable at some point. Seems a very good understanding of the digital camera is necessity though in order to ensure all is done correctly. Not rocket science but much more than "open the camera, shoot, wait a few moments, and ride on".
Somehow I managed to miss "H" after looking for it several times. Good to get the reading comprehension issues out of the way now.
As for the number of cards required for BL, I know we'd need one per leg and at the required resolution, most any card would suffice. The real question was the number of legs - I count 4. Decatur to Mandan, Mandan to Alb, Alb to ???, and ??? to Decatur. Just wanted to make sure there wasn't a fifth tucked in betwixt the ???. Pints are OK but it's those fifths one has to watch out for.
Good questions Joe. It seems it will be much safer to go with polaroid, assuming we will still be allowed to bring multiple polaroids for one bonus.
If you go digital, and take several photos of one bonus, that means that you have to hope you picked the right one to submit. You will have had to delete all the other photos on the disk you are going to submit. Even if you made copies on you PC, and deleted the wrong photo on the disk you intend to submit, according to the rules you can't just transfer it back off your pc onto the disk you submit.
Wouldn't that suck to lose the rally because you couldn't copy the correct photo from you pc to your disk, while the guy sittin next to you submits four polaroids and gets the points?
"If it was me, I'd take a Polaroid and a digital and take bonus shots with both. But then, I carried two Polaroids on multi-day rallies so I wouldn't have to find a Wal-Mart if one failed. "
Which was my original plan. But now the rules say I have to pick one or the other. For all the reasons he listed in that other thread the choice is easy. Digital (if I get one for the rally) is for tourist shots. Polaroid for the money shots.
And Kipper, me angry? Frustrated, maybe, not angry yet. See me after scoring, I'll let you know then.
If I'm understand this rule, under "G" only one photo may be submitted. So could have 10 photo's of a single bonus on my memory card and tell the scorekeeper I'm submitting photo #6 for that bonus? No penalty for extra photos on the card and the photo submitted would not necessarily be the first photo. Is this correct?
I. Events will have two scoring procedures—Polaroid and digital. Riders must decide which photo format they wish to use for the scoring process.
Use of multiple photo types (i.e. digital & Polaroid) on the same route sheet will not be accepted.
When do we have to declare the type of photo we are using? At the start of the rally, at the begining of the leg, or at the end of the leg just prior to scoring?
If I ride leg one taking photos with both polaroid and digital, then get to Bismark and decide that I want to turn in the digital, is that ok? Then can I do the same thing on leg two, and score in Albquerque turning in the polaroids?
> When do we have to declare the type of photo we are using?
Nothing needs to be declared.
Bring the photos you want to submit for scoring, get in the correct scoring line, score.
Change your mind every leg of the rally if you wish.
To me, all this talk of using multiple cameras, having a kajillion photos at the checkpoint, etc., etc., etc., is adding needless complexity to a process a rider should want to be as smooth and effortless as possible.
Just like every other BL Rally:
A) Pick a camera.
B) Use it on the event.
C) Turn in photos at the scoring table.
If it's digital, have one photo for the bonus in your card.
A rider has a day or three to review their photos and delete the unneeded ones, and the scorers are not going to spend time dealing with a card filled with 85-kajillion photos that have nothing to do with the matter at hand. If I were a rider in line behind another rider doing that and holding me up, we'd be having words.
There's an exception that may arise to the "one photo" rule, and it's not actually about getting a bonus, if you think about it....
Regarding multiple camera formats:
It'll be hard enough on day 5 to remember to bring your photos to the scoring table, much less putting yourself in a position where you have to peruse multiple formats, decide which to go with, put them together, etc. It's a personal receipe for disaster, and I guarantee that a rider doing that risks outsmarting himself and missing something along the way. Too bad for them if the one they forget to include was the 45,000 point Laura Ingalls Wilder* bonus from Southern Georgia that costs them the event win.....
Personally, I'd rather get the off-bike tasks done as quickly as possible, and get some much-needed sleep.
K.I.S.S.==Keep it Simple Stanley.
Why do I feel this will be a big topic in Niobrara this weekend....?
Rev. Eddie
Don--re: your post---are you hanging out with Adam....?
Don't get him started on his whole "photo bonus" rant.
* you didn't think half-pint would be forgotten, did you...?
<<Too bad for them if the one they forget to include was the 45,000 point Laura Ingalls Wilder* bonus from Southern Georgia that costs them the event win.....>>
I hope Google isn't brought to its knees by all the searching caused by this little tidbit....
<<Why do I feel this will be a big topic in Niobrara this weekend....?>>
Eddie, I've alerted Pat to stock up on Jagermeister & Red Bull so you'll be able to stay up and handle the onslaught of comments, suggestions, questions and abuse regarding all this...
Always looking out for you, even when I'm not there,
I have been looking at a small printer that will print from any camera, memory card, or computer. They are the size of a Poloroid camera and print 4x6 photos for around 28 cents. If they come from a digital source but I turn in the printed photos would that be against the rules? Or would that be the same as going to the 1 hour photo as you could have done in previous rallys? Thanks Brian
I second Brian's question: What about the new Polaroid "PoGo" printer, which uses Zink to print instant digital photos? Cost I heard was going to be $149 and available "this summer". Not cheap but it would combine the best of both worlds.
Regarding bonuses based on questions only: If I were running the MN1K next year, it's something I would consider. However, there are problems with this approach too. It's amazing how much information about practically everything is available on the Internets. Trust me, I know this after googling all of my ask a question bonuses this year. Also, I believe it would be much easier to cheat with no photo bonuses. You could hand your brother a list of questions and he could drive around and collect answers easily. No one would ever do that, would they?
Oh, and Kip looks like a registered sex offender. Talks like one,too.
Eddie...if my info is correct, you could not use your Canon A530 in the ButtLite.
Your rules state, " image size of 1024x768..(and another that is smaller)"
The ONLY mode your camera will imprint the time and date on the image is the Postcard mode. The pixel count on your camera at that setting is 1600X1200.
I am an outsider looking in for the Buttlite, but have done 3 other rallies that have allowed digital. Each has its own little wrinkle. If you are buying a digital camera for this rally that will meet the RM rules...your choices are slim. I now own 3 digital cameras so that I can meet the different rules of different rallies. I am pro-digital, but will be glad when a universal standard is set.
A question for Eddie...you state the card becomes the property of Team Strange, but then in a later post state who ever said anything about leaving the card at the table. The question, will the scorer collect and keep the card at each scoring location?
Not even riding in the event, and I still have a lot of questions about TS digital rules!!!!
The Canon remark was made in a reference to what a digital camera can do.
It wasn't on a rally.
It wasn't going to be used in a rally.
It was never said it could be used in the BL rally.
It was merely being used in a test to take a photo with a cheap digital camera after dark. Nothing more, nothing less.
Item H clearly states that the cards become property of TS.
The post I had about "leaving the card at the table" was quoting the post above it.
If you are buying a digital camera for this rally that will meet the RM rules...your choices are slim.
By any chance have you done this research already? If so, you could really help those thinking of using digital by suggesting the very few cameras that will be legal by these rules.
Is there anyone out there still seriosly thinking of using digital under these conditions?
- I'm glad I'm not a rally master in the digital age!
- I'm even gladder that I don't have to submit a scoresheet to a pixxed-off scoring judge any time soon. You BL IIIII riders get the bugs out of the system for the rest of us mmkay?
- I'm looking forward to the Team Strange digital media e-store!
- the Luddite class looks very attractive. Maybe Luddite riders could go totally analog and collect rubbings from gravestones and plaques instead of taking pictures?
I have been looking at a small printer that will print from any camera, memory card, or computer. They are the size of a Poloroid camera and print 4x6 photos for around 28 cents. If they come from a digital source but I turn in the printed photos would that be against the rules? Or would that be the same as going to the 1 hour photo as you could have done in previous rallys?
We should probably ban it just to save you from yourself.
Let's see: set proper mode on camera, plug cable into camera, plug cable into printer, ensure camera has battery power, ensure printer has battery power, insert paper into printer, insert ink cartridge into printer, select picture for printing, print picture, hope camera talks to printer, wait 30 seconds for picture to print, ensure paper doesn't jam in printer, select next picture, don't drop printer, don't drop camera, don't run out of paper, don't run out of ink . . . what could go wrong after 7 days on the road?
For one thing, Zink technology does not use ink. Period. I have no idea if it works as well as advertised (I have no stock holdings in Tom Petters' company) but the question is a serious one. For me anyway. FWIW.
I am not willing to take a digital photo and then hope when I get to the checkpoint that everything is kosher, ie. the date and time stamp are there, the format is what I think it is, the sun still revolves around the earth... I am happily prepared to go Polaroid on BL IIIII.
But, given the advantages of nighttime photography (like, for something "high up a pole after dark"), I MIGHT be willing to spend some money on a new-fangled gadget that gave me the best of both worlds.
I don't care that much if it's banned for this particular rally, and I can sympathize with how annoying this stuff is for the rallymasters, but the question is not my usual insulting good times. Really.
So, if the Zink polaroid IS allowed, is it considered polaroid, or is it considered digital?
Could someone use polaroid (me) and have this zink thingy for night up-the-pole-shots, and still get in the polaroid line at the scoring table legally?
And how about the one hour photo deal? If I get my pics printed out at walmart, do I get in the polaroid line?
And then that means I could have several printed out shots to submit as the other polaroid users will do?
Not to say they won't be at some time in the future, but we've got our hands full right now with the eleventeen jillion emails of the "well, what if there's a robot on the moon, and he's got a human brain and his digital camera reads in phinktologonomes, but it's comparable to what you're requesting, sorta--if you hold it sideways and squint just right......" type.
.....besides, if we allow them John C. would then fall even further behind the technological curve than I am, and you just know he'd ride across someone's sorghum field or something seeking revenge in the only way he knows how.....
