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C1J turbo and JB1 Transmission... ??

February 25 2001 at 9:41 AM
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Artur Leminski 
from IP address 212.14.7.136

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Hello

I found a nice C1J turbo engine with all the accompanying stuff, (they say everything was working, when they took it outta MY1987 R11 Turbo) but they already sold the original JB3 gearbox, and don't have more JB3 Gearboxes avaliable...
So the question appears.. Will JB1 (from good old C2J) work with turbocharged C1J engine ???
The only difference I know for sure is the clutch disc diameter, which is 160 mm in my car and was 200mm in F2N/Turbo... What may the potential problems be? Do you think JB1 is "strong enough" to handle all 115 HP of Turbocharged C1J?? Do you know any other problems that may appear when putting C1J turbo into R11 TL chassis?

If you have some ideas, please let me know...

Thank you in advance.

Artur

 
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AuthorReply
turbo_arie

195.241.195.33

fuel pump

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February 25 2001, 12:26 PM 

Does a R11 tl have an electrical fuel pump ? Because the turbo has one.

 
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Artur Leminski

212.14.7.149

mechanical I guess

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February 25 2001, 1:00 PM 

Nope it has a mechanical one placed at the side of the engine block... OK will have to get electric one. thanx Arie!
BTW. I've already attached a link to your website!

Artur

 
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turbo_arie

195.241.219.66

Thanks

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February 25 2001, 1:53 PM 

Hello,

I already saw that. Thanks.

 
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Juha

193.166.232.79

elecky pump needs to deliver >1 bar

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February 25 2001, 8:39 PM 

Hi Artur,

If you've found a decent turbo engine for reasonable money, I'd say go for it! There are plenty of JB 'boxes around should you need replacement... ;D


If/when buying an electrical fuel pump for the Turbo, remember that you need an 'industrial-grade' (read your Gibsons?) pump capable of building up over 1 bar of pressure. The price for such a pump is in the region of appr. €150-€200 from Pierburg, Airtex or similar good quality manufacturer. You can get electric fuel pumps for appr. a third of that, but they're usually only capable of ca. 0.3 bar and should only be used on atmospheric carburettor engines.

Then there's a fuel pressure regulator in the engine compartment. The actual fuel pressure to the carburettor is reduced to only about 0.25-0.3 bar, but the fuel pump needs to have plenty of 'reserve' when the turbo kicks in requiring extra fuel. The 0.3 bar pumps simply aren't up to the job, causing poor performance and potentially burned valves and/or pistons as a result of heavy stress combined with lean mixture.

Can't remember if the 11 Turbos have the pump fitted separately under the car or if it's been integrated to the fuel level sender unit in the tank? However there's a separate fuel filter under the car, similar to those fitted to fuel-injected cars. That I DO remember...

*** *** *** ***

The Turbo has ventilated front brake discs (20 mm thick) that also require different calipers. Later Turbos had rear disc brakes, but early cars had ordinary drums, so you can keep your existing rear drums. Also the early Turbos had a 2-bar rear axle, so no need to change that either.
I don't now how strict it is in your country, but at least here in Finland we need to uprate the chassis and brakes to equal the original Turbo if we want to keep things legal. Well, I've seen people remove and bypass the turbo temporarily to get through the MoT without any modification inspection or paperwork needed, but it doesn't help much if the police stops you on the road and you have a turbo but no mentioning of it in the car's papers...

*** *** *** ***

I personally haven't seen a C1J-760 or -770 been mated to a JB1. Bolt patterns should be similar so it's possible to physically mate a turbo engine to a JB1. IF there isn't place for the 200 mm clutch inside the JB1 bellhousing, then you can always use a standard 160 mm (or is it actually 180?) clutch, although that will probably have a relatively short life. I haven't seen JB1 and JB3 bellhousings side by side, so I'm only speculating here. (Aren't I always?) ;-)

A friend of mine used to have a Renault 8 with a C1J-760, upped boost and about 150-160 bhp. He used a standard R5 Alpine clutch (can't remember if it's 180 or 200 mm) and it slipped when flooring it in 3rd or 4th. Before that he'd used a 160 mm sintered racing clutch which didn't slip. However its 'on-off' function was a bit tricky on ferries and such when he had manouvre in tight places, so he changed back to a more civilized version. He didn't operate on the standard 105 bhp max boost, so I can't know how the clutch would've coped with that 'little' power...
I should also mention that the original R8 4-speed 'box(es) had a hard life connected to the engine; When he sold the car a couple of years ago he was on his third gearbox! In the Eight the weak point were the small cogwheels at the differential. For the (completely different) JB1 it's probably the differential plus the 5th gear bearing, I'd suspect.
If you use the JB1 with the turbo, you should definitely avoid 'Banzai!' starts (revs up, clutch up) and avoid using the torque of the engine in 5th gear. With those precautions, you may achieve tens of thousands of kilometres before you'll a new gearbox. Then again, you might forget all those precautions and blow it when that six-pot Bavarian Motor Wunder stops at the traffic lights beside you and you need to show who's who...!

 
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turbo arie

195.241.226.210

R11 Turbo fuel pump is situated under the car. (nm)

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February 25 2001, 9:10 PM 


 
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Artur Leminski

212.14.7.149

Hmmm ... Lots to be done...

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February 26 2001, 2:09 PM 

Several problems appeared when I started to think of REALLY putting this devil (I mean C1J 760) in.

First:
- fuel pump - OK - I'll get one probably with very little trouble.
- fuel hose - I suppose that the one BEFORE the pump can be the ordinary fuel hose, how about the one operating on high pressure?? Should I search for a special kind of hose for this?
- air filter, intercooler, turbo shielding, all those various hoses, wires and stuff... When I looked at it for the first time I really started to worry if I'd be able to fit all this shit into my engine bay... hmmm
- broken turbo possibility - lots of Turbos were "recycled" because of turbocharger damages... Even though people at the "Car Recycling Centre" insist that everything was fully operational, I'd like to know if it is possbile to run a C1J 760 with broken turbo for some time (until I'd get a working one)?
- Brake system - when upgrading front brakes, would I have to replace a brake pump with a bigger one?
- Transmission - IS a F2N engined R11 derived JB3 transmission EXACTLY the same as the one encountered in turbos?
- Electrical connections... Would a Turbo engine need some extra wiring, which may not be found in R11 TL chassis? I saw various sensors in the pictures provided by Etienne I do not have in TL... What, the hell is their function ?? I may only guess that.
- Radiator - will I need a special radiator for C1J 760? Is there an oil radiator in turbos ?

WOW - looks like lots has to be done to enjoy this amazing boost :)))

Artur
If you have some electrical wiring schemes of a R11 Turbo, or some tech drawings, or other useful stuff (like engine bay pics) which may be scanned, and sent by E-mail, pls. send it to me, ok?

Thank you very much

 
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Juha

193.166.232.79

Turbo has an oil cooler

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February 26 2001, 8:14 PM 

actually it's originally integrated to the water radiator, but nothing prevents you from using a separate small oil cooler if you can't find an original Turbo radiator.

 
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216.68.44.210

where to connect oil lines for cooler on 1.4?

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February 28 2001, 2:16 AM 

Hi Artur... I have a 1.4 I must put in a valve, and the motor is out of the car awaiting a little bit warmer weather so I can take off the head.....
can you tell me where the oil lines are connected to the 1.4 Turbo???
since the 1.4 Block is the same-- I want to look if I can connect a cooler, not now but some day...-- and since the motor is easy to look at out of the car-- perhaps one day I will do so....
thanks -joe in usa

 
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Juha

195.197.52.20

A separate adaptor is used

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March 4 2001, 2:06 PM 

On Turbo models the oil cooler is incorporated into the right-hand tank of the radiator. The feed and return hoses are taken from an adaptor located beneath the oil filter.


 
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