Pavlos Melas.

A question, why was he was among the first who organized and participated in the Christian Turk Struggle for Macedonia.

But there was no Macedonian ethnos vre only a fake one Tito ring a bell?, your sick KOMI you know that. Delete like you normally do be my guest but I refuse to acknowledge your wet fake dreams.

"""and you can call me Macedonian. Simple."""

Molon Lave.

Yes there was a Macedonian ethnicity, and it was as valid as that of its neighbours.

You are such a product of brainwashing pal, you recycle the same thing day in and day out without even bothering to examine the other side, you should learn to know thy enemy, it is the only way you can get a complete picture of everything.

You see, when you say Tito I think, another clown that has probably never opened a book.

When you ignore what the most famous Greek fighter in Macedonia said about my people, that he called their language as MACEDONIAN, then I know you are merely a child with the brain capacity of a chimp.

By the way, how DID you go with that 1928 Greek census sweety? Or are you going to keep running away from it.

I understand Arhi, you must defend this counterfit culture of yours, it is easy to twist words, saying Macedonia is Greek yet most of the pan-makemorons can speak Macedonian as well as Greek, the whole concept of the psuedo greece-macedonian is an oxymoron full of morons who people this trash can of an organisation.

Za nea nie se borime, za nea nie umreme, Makedonija, 20 Juli

Some times KOMI I really do think your talking to the mirror, we never had Tito to brain wash us. Our heroes were all Greeks and not Bulgarians.

Your wet dreams have a desire for Albanian, Bulgarian lands also...Right? Even our biggest enemy the Turks don't have you on their census at 1903? if i'm not mistaken on the date? I have shown you treaties that show no Macedonia ethnos but Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs Albanians during the exchange.

And you kept deleting them afraid of the truth perhaps? That is a sure thing.

See how easy we can refute you, and you guy's never respond to our hard core facts.

All your heroes are Greek? You mean like Kondouriotes the Albanian and Kote Hristov the Macedonian?

Or maybe its your Vlach leader Cappodistria? Or maybe your Arvaniti leader Panglaos?

No it must be your leader Vulgaros?


Yes, all your "heroes" are Greek, lol

Za nea nie se borime, za nea nie umreme, Makedonija, 20 Juli

KOMI you are too much, try and do some real research. Say a musiuem perhaps or even the town Pella the heart of Greek Macedonia and enlighten us when you come back.

----------------------------------
Insults Deleted

"All your heroes are Greek? You mean like Kondouriotes the Albanian and Kote Hristov the Macedonian?"


DATIGOEBAM MALAKA !!

Istor
Solun or Thessaloniki?
Conflict about Macedonian name

"The same way you edit all my posts there when I refer to my people by their real name of MACEDONIANS,"

But that name is NOT theirs (yours) my dear. The last 3000 years World refers to Greeks of Macedonia as Macedonians. And World refers to other peoples of Macedonia as Macedonians ONLY geographically !!!

Istor
Solun or Thessaloniki?
Conflict about Macedonian name

"The same way you edit all my posts there when I refer to my people by their real name of MACEDONIANS,"


Insults Deleted: Now, now, Istor, have another sip of that Turkish coffee you call "greek" and calm down before you cop a stroke

Don't loose your temper my friend istor. komitaji belongs to the christo stefou category. the ones that know 100% that they have NO relation with Macedonia but for some personal reason they insist on brainwashing the others.
for example christos stefou is getting richer day by day with his funny books
i wonder why komitaji is on the game so fanatically.

Macedonians never said: pozdrav alaxandar kako si. and Alexander never answered: dobre, dobre.......

it's getting funnier day by day

Macedonians had a native langauge Panayote, which required an interpreter when spoken to a Greek.

Istor, you just claimed that for the last 3,000 years Greeks in Macedonia were reffered to as Macedonians by the world, I find this laughable and I challenge you to show me a list of quotes or references which proves this? You have me interested.

No need to lose your temper too, it is no secret that Kote was a Macedonian and Kondouriote was a Albanian.

Just show me where exactly Greeks are referred to as Macedonians for 3,000 years continuosly

Za nea nie se borime, za nea nie umreme, Makedonija, 20 Juli

Look in http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/ for Macedonians as Greeks. Look for famous medieval Macedonians.

I have a simple test to recognize Macedonians: "Solun or Thessaloniki??"
What do you say?
Would you think that a people who call Solun as Thessaloniki are Macedonians or not ??

Istor
Solun or Thessaloniki?
Conflict about Macedonian name

"Macedonians had a native langauge Panayote, which required an interpreter when spoken to a Greek.

Istor, you just claimed that for the last 3,000 years Greeks in Macedonia were reffered to as Macedonians by the world, I find this laughable and I challenge you to show me a list of quotes or references which proves this? You have me interested.

No need to lose your temper too, it is no secret that Kote was a Macedonian and Kondouriote was a Albanian.

Just show me where exactly Greeks are referred to as Macedonians for 3,000 years continuosly"

komitaji my friend even in the history books in high school it is mentioned that Macedonians needed an interpreter when speeking to an ATHENIAN or a THEBEAN or an AEOLIAN or an IONIAN. Macedonians being speakers of the DORIAN dialect had no problem speaking with the SPARTANS or any other DORIAN city state. this issue is well documented in the ancient documents, when a speaker of the attic dialect had to communicate with a speaker of the dorian or aeolian dialect they needed an interpreter in order to communicate MORE EASILY. if u can't understand what i say just think of an interpreter that "helps" a bulgarian to communicate with one of your compatriots from the city of east skopje or bitola.....

about Macedonians considered to be part of Hellenic world:

Treaty between Hannibal and King Philip of Macedon (215 BC)

This is a sworn treaty between us, Hannibal the general, Mago, Myrcan, Barmocar, and all other Carthaginian senators present with him, and all Carthaginians serving under him, on the one side, and Xenophanes the Athenian, son of Cleomachus, the envoy whom King Philip, son of Demetrius, sent to us on behalf of himself, the Macedonians and allies, on the other side.
In the presence of Zeus, Hera, and Apollo: in the presence of the Genius of Carthage, of Heracles, and Iolaus: in the presence of Ares, Triton, and Poseidon: in the presence of the gods who battle for us and the Sun, Moon, and Earth; in the presence of Rivers, Lakes, and Waters: in the presence of all the gods who possess Macedonia and the rest of Greece: in the presence of all the gods of the army who preside over this oath.
Thus saith Hannibal the general, and all the Carthaginian senators with him, and all Carthaginians serving with him, that as seemeth good to you and to us, so should we bind ourselves by oath to be even as friends, kinsmen, and brothers, on these conditions.
(1) That King Philip and the Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks who are their allies shall protect the Carthaginians, the supreme lords, and Hannibal their general, and those with him, and all under the dominion of Carthage who live under the same laws; likewise the people of Utica and all cities and peoples that are subject to Carthage, and our soldiers and allies and cities and peoples in Italy, Gaul, and Liguria, with whom we are in alliance or with whomsoever in this country we may hereafter enter into alliance.

(2) King Philip and the Macedonians and such of the Greeks as are the allies shall be protected and guarded by the Carthaginians who are serving with us, by the people of Utica and by all cities and peoples that are subject to Carthage, by our allies and soldiers and all peoples and cities in Italy, Gaul, and Liguria, who are our allies, and by such others as may hereafter become our allies in Italy and the adjacent regions.

(3) We will enter into no plot against each other, nor lie in ambush for each other, but with all zeal and good fellowship, without deceit or secret design, we will be enemies of such as war against the Carthaginians, always excepting the kings, cities, and ports with which we have sworn treaties of alliance.

(4) And we, too, will be the enemies of such as war against King Philip, always excepting the Greeks, cities, and people with which we have sworn treaties of alliance.

(5) You will be our allies in the war in which we are engaged with the Romans until the gods vouchsafe the victory to us and to you, and you will give us such help as we have need of or as we agree upon.

(6) As soon as the gods have given us the victory in the war against the Romans and their allies, if the Romans ask us to come to terms of peace, we will make such a peace as will comprise you too, and on the following conditions: that the Romans may never make war upon you; that the Romans shall no longer be masters of Corcyra, Apollonia, Epidamnus, Pharos, Dimale, Parthini, or Atitania: and that they shall return to Demetrius of Pharos all his friends who are in the dominions of Rome.

(7) If ever the Romans make war on you or on us, we will help each other in the war as may be required on either side.

(8) In like manner if any others do so, excepting always kings, cities, and peoples with whom we have sworn treaties of alliance.

(9) If we decide to withdraw any clauses from this treaty or to add any we will withdraw such clauses or add them as we both may agree…
Polybius, Book VII, 9, 1-17

Lets ask why did Pavlos Melas diffrentiate between Macedonians and Greeks?

Greeks of this forum, please read his memoires written by his wife.....

Pavlos Melas said "I learned a few words in
Macedonian", that was in 1904 when he wrote to his wife Natalia. You can

see for yourself in the book "Pavlos Melas" Athena 1964.

jordan in the same book the komitajis are referred as the BULGARIAN komitajides. they also mention that those bulgarian komitajides (as the BOOK says) speak the same language with the locals that fight against them. so how could someone separate the bulgarian komitajides from the locals that fight against them but they speak the same language? to give another name than bulgarian to the dialect of the locals. the locals where in Macedonia so they called it Macedonian.

i like the way u think jordan:
u by pass the fact that the book calls the komitajides BULGARIANS
u by pass the fact that the book mentions that the majority of the Macedonian population sided with Hellas
u by pass the fact that slavophone Macedonomachoi were the strongest warriors against the bulgarians
u by pass the fact that NO direct reference in a Macedonian nation is made UNLIKE the Hellenic and bulgarian nation that are clearly mentioned!
u by pass the fact that someone had to choose between the Patriarchate or the bulgarian exarchy no mention of a makedonski church


and u stick on an attempt to call a bulgarian dialect with a regional name other than bulgarian?????

the one that first posted it in makfax news must have searched many hours to find it. but the funnier is all u that u repeat his mistake like parrots.

jordan u know that Alexandros never said: "pozdrav kako si" and his soldiers never answered:" dobre alaxandar dobre" don't you????

was Achilles really a slav?????

Turkish coffee was a good example, KOMITADJI.

Here are some more famous 'Macedonians'
Pitu Guli = Vlach
Goce Delchev = Bulgarian (has a city named after him in Bulgaria)
Jane Sandanski = Bulgarian (has a city named after him in Bulgaria)

Komitaji tell us was Tose Proeski also a 'Macedonian' hero??

[Istor wrote: Look in http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/ for Macedonians as Greeks. Look for famous medieval Macedonians.]
That's what I thought. You all know that there is no way you could provide even a handful of example where Greeks are called Macedonians or where Macedonians are refered to as Greek in a contium of 2,000 years. You have Turkish settlers who were taught to speak Greek and call themselves Macedonians from the 1980's onwards -- This is 80% of the "greek" Macedonians for you that have a 80 year history in Macedonia since they came from Asia.


@Bzboom, Macedonia also has a city dedicated to Delchev. Pitu Guli was Vlach and he fought for Macedonia as his motherland, so was Tose Proeski, they are both proud Vlachs AND Macedonians, and we have NEVER denied that they are of ethnic Vlach descent. Vlachs and Macedonians are the best of friends in the Republic of Macedonia and they are treated as brothers. In Bulgaria and Greece, everybody are Bulgarians and Greeks, even Turks like Asparuk and Karaman(lis)


@KanuniSS, Turkish Coffee, Kebab-"souvlaki", Chuchuk-tzatziki, etc, etc, etc, the list goes for miles, most of them even call their fathers as BABA. I guess they haven't forgotten how to call their fathers


[Panayote wrote: komitaji my friend even in the history books in high school it is mentioned that Macedonians needed an interpreter when speeking to an ATHENIAN or a THEBEAN or an AEOLIAN or an IONIAN. Macedonians being speakers of the DORIAN dialect had no problem speaking with the SPARTANS or any other DORIAN city state. this issue is well documented in the ancient documents, when a speaker of the attic dialect had to communicate with a speaker of the dorian or aeolian dialect they needed an interpreter in order to communicate MORE EASILY.]

Really, this is what your high schools teach you? Can you show me some texts that say it was Macedonians that needed interpreters with Athenians or Thebans rather than simply a Greek? Or are you saying that the Spartans and Athenians needed interpreters too?


[Panayote wrote: u by pass the fact that the book calls the komitajides BULGARIANS
u by pass the fact that the book mentions that the majority of the Macedonian population sided with Hellas
u by pass the fact that slavophone Macedonomachoi were the strongest warriors against the bulgarians
u by pass the fact that NO direct reference in a Macedonian nation is made UNLIKE the Hellenic and bulgarian nation that are clearly mentioned!
u by pass the fact that someone had to choose between the Patriarchate or the bulgarian exarchy no mention of a makedonski church


and u stick on an attempt to call a bulgarian dialect with a regional name other than bulgarian?????]
You bypass the fact that Pavlos Melas could call the langauge Bulgarian, but instead he calls it what the DOPIA locals call it, MACEDONIAN

You bypass the fact that Pavlos Melas speaks of a certain school where the children can speak Macedonian but hardly any could speak greek

You bypass the fact that the "slavophonoi" are MACEDONIANS under the Patriarch, not "ethnic greeks"

You bypass the fact that Bulgar and Greek are Exarch and Patriarch

You bypass the fact that Kote Hristov cannot even speak Greek, but only, as Pavlos Melas says, MAKEDONIKA

You bypass the fact that Pavlos Melas even states that the people of Macedonia, be they of whatever "group", embraced the idea of a common Macedonian people.


Please refrain from insulting my language OK Christian Turk? You wont be told again, behave.

Za nea nie se borime, za nea nie umreme, Makedonija, 20 Juli

Poor Komi , you truly are flummoxed, i love dealing with ppl like you - the hardcore Makadonski patriots of the diaspora. where to start with you
-So Tose can be a proud vlach and a Macedonian but a slavophone speaker in Greece cant be Greek , he is a Macedonian or a Grkoman. interesting
- The vlachs in Greece have been there so long now they consider themselves Greek. Brailsford wrote in 1905 ' Twenty years ago there was nothing in Balkan politics so inevitable, so nearly axiomatic, as the connection of the Vlachs with the Greek cause. They had no national consciousness and no national ambition... With some of them Hellenism was a passion and an enthusiasm. They believed themselves to be Greek. They baptized their children 'Themistoclis' and 'Penelope'. THey studied in Athens and they left their fortunes to Greek schools and Greek hospitals.'
- Nobody forced these ppl to be Greek they wanted to be Greeks they felt Greek, im not going to tell them they are not Greek, you can go ahead , see what happens to you!!
- The slav speaking peasants at the time really didnt know what they were, they simply referred to themselves as 'christians' So if you think they were 'ethnic Macedonians' by all means go ahead. That was the last thing they were of course, whether they were ethnic bulgars,serbs or greeks nobody knows, the fact is many of them felt Greek and fought for Greek cause in the macedonian struggle and they were loyal to the patriarch.
1904 ottoman census give an approxomate picture of the ethnography
Patriarchist 648,962 Exarchists 557,734
896,496 Bulgarians , 307,000 Greeks, 99,000 Vlachs , 100,717 Serbs
Well once again looks like they forgot about the poor old Ethnic Macedonians!
All my quotes come from "Salonica- City of Ghosts"by Mark Mazower

And with your comments about Christian Turks.
The original turks who came from mongolia and turkmentistan, were about 350,000, now Turkey is 60 million. Who was in modern day turkey back them when those turks arrived?? perhaps it was 'Makadonskis' who knows, but anyway according to your logic if you ever decide to move back to your homeland you will be considered a Christian Canadian or Australian. Grow up man. You realize how many Greeks had to convert or die? You realize how many Jannisaries were taken and became turks? you ever wonder why you see blonde and blue eyes in modern day Turkey? If anything turks are a mix of Greeks, bulgarians, ukranians , russians who knows what else.
You look at names like Karaman and you get all excited well how about these names, if we use your logic....
KOKINOVSKI - Kokino means red in greek = He must have been Greek
KONDOVSKI - Kondos means short in greek = He must have been Greek
KOLOSKI - Kolo means ass in greek = He must have been Greek
KARAMESINOVSK - Kara means black in turkish, mesi means half in Greek
wow this guy was half greek half turkish
KARAFILOVSKI - Kara means black in turkish, filos means friend in Greek
friend of blacks maybe he was african!!
UZUNOVKSI - Uzun means tall in turkish = this guy pure turk
my thanks to macedonianconnection.com 'pass the piperka' for all the names
there are plenty more, but you get my point, astanavi gavarit glupasti

[So Tose can be a proud vlach and a Macedonian but a slavophone speaker in Greece cant be Greek , he is a Macedonian or a Grkoman]

Here we go, the typical method of blurring distinctions. Tose is an ETHNIC Vlach and a Macedonian-BORN CITIZEN. In the Macedonian Census, Vlachs are counted as VLACHS. The difference with Greece is obvious to any neutral observer, for wether you are Macedonian or Vlach in Greece you are still considered an ETHNIC Greek in the Greek Census! If Slavophones want to be "ethnic" Greeks in Greece so be it, but how about those people who claim to be ETHNIC MACEDONIANS in Greece? Don't even dare try and make it like it is Macedonia that denies people's rights to self-determination, our census and declarations are honests, not conjured mythologies propagated by the church and government as they are in Greece.

Tose Proeski, may he rest in peace, is a Macedonian Vlach and was loved in Macedonia, regardless of his ethnicity. If he was a Greek-born citizen, would he still be loved even though on top of singing the official langauge of the sate he also made tunes in his native langauge? How many bi-lingual singers in Greece with any sort of popularity? Ah of course, not many if any, go Greece with your EU values, lead the way! hahaha


[The vlachs in Greece have been there so long now they consider themselves Greek. Brailsford wrote in 1905 ' Twenty years ago there was nothing in Balkan politics so inevitable, so nearly axiomatic, as the connection of the Vlachs with the Greek cause. They had no national consciousness and no national ambition... With some of them Hellenism was a passion and an enthusiasm. They believed themselves to be Greek. They baptized their children 'Themistoclis' and 'Penelope'. THey studied in Athens and they left their fortunes to Greek schools and Greek hospitals.']

LLLOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL, here is something else the "anti macedonian" Brailsford says about the Vlachs:

"The Greeks may build their classical gymnasia where boys may learn by heart a play or two, a speech of Demosthenes and half the Odyssey. But the Vlachs are a practical people. If they too study Greek it is because there is no Eastern language so useful in the trade of the Levant."

"They shelter themselves in the Greek Church, adopt Greek culture as a disguise"

"though without their aid the Greeks would cut a poor figure among the statistics of the Macedonian races. The so-called "Greeks" of Monastir are Vlachs to a man."

"without them the Greeks would cut a sorry figure. North of Castoria there is not so much as a single Greek village."


Here is something from your favorite "anti macedonian" writer Authur Evans, 1903:

"much money is expended by Greek committees in the endeavour to gain recruits for Greek nationality. Parents are actually paid to send their children to the Greek schools."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For the glory of grease, hahahahaha
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Oh you mean the Ottoman Census that claims ROMAOI? I don't see any Hellenes there, I see Greek-speakers, Vlach-speakers and Slav-speakers who were under the Patrairch, there are Africans who follow the Anglican way, I guess Shaka Zulu is a descendant of Henry VIII ?

As for the population of Turkey, pfft, what do you think, that all of Anatolia was ethnic Hellene? LOL. I agree that there are non-Turkic elements in many Turkish people today, just as there are MANY non-Hellenic elements in today's modern Greece today. In 1906, teh British traveller Virginia Woolfe wrote:

"you must look upon Modern Greek as an impure nation of peasants, just as you must look upon the modern Greek as a nation of mongrel element"


As for your name etymologies, how many Uzunovski's and Kondovski's wre settled in Macedonia from Asia in the 1920's? NONE. How many Karamans and Karadzhaferis? PLENTY. While you are on the KARA, go and tell your Serbian friends that their old King KARAGEORGE was a Turk-Greek because Kara is Blakc in Turkish and George is a name with a Greek meaning.

Kolo is the name used for the circle dances in Macedonian, it may be a custom in Greece to name people after somebody's ass but not in Macedonia. While we are on the subject of names, can you show me just ONE Macedonian name that uses a Turkish suffix characteristic? I can name thousands, THOUSANDS, in Greece, all Greek surnames that end in OGLOU are Turkish in origin because OGUL means SON in Turkish hence OGLU = Son of/ in Turkish.

Only Turks, Albanians and Greeks use BABA for father in the Balkans, mmm, Interesting.

Since the Turks came in the Balkans, the Greeks never had it so good, and were never again under Slavic domination, yet somehow, ALL OVER GREECE there are Slavic placenames and surnames that have an obvious Slavic meaning. If we haven't dominated you int he last 500 years, these pure "Hellenes" shouldn't have anything Slavic, yet they do, plenty.

Names like ZAGORAkis and BOGDANis are plentiful in Greece. Macedonians who have Greek names are taken by and large from the bible, not from Greeks, but BOGDAN is not in the Bible, yet he is a Hellene from the strain of Achilles


By the way, I told you all to watch your mouths, restrict your shiit talk to the Greek Forum

Za nea nie se borime, za nea nie umreme, Makedonija, 20 Juli

"You bypass the fact that Pavlos Melas could call the langauge Bulgarian, but instead he calls it what the DOPIA locals call it, MACEDONIAN

You bypass the fact that Pavlos Melas speaks of a certain school where the children can speak Macedonian but hardly any could speak greek

You bypass the fact that the "slavophonoi" are MACEDONIANS under the Patriarch, not "ethnic greeks"

You bypass the fact that Bulgar and Greek are Exarch and Patriarch

You bypass the fact that Kote Hristov cannot even speak Greek, but only, as Pavlos Melas says, MAKEDONIKA

You bypass the fact that Pavlos Melas even states that the people of Macedonia, be they of whatever "group", embraced the idea of a common Macedonian people.


Please refrain from insulting my language OK Christian Turk? You wont be told again, behave."

komitaji i already explained that if u fight against the bulgarians side to side with people that speak a bulgarian dialect (AS THE BOOK MENTIONS) u don't call their language bulgarian u give it a REGIONAL NAME! it's plain simple to understand.

isn't strange that the majority of the entopioi that couldn't speak Hellenic, that spoke the same or similar language with the enemy sided with Hellas? by calling them grekomans u don't explain or even solve the problem.

Hellenes had their Church, bulgarians serbians etc etc why we see a makedonski church only in tito era? a very suspicious move because in all communist world church was under prosecution even in yugoslavia with the exception of the peoples socialist republic of makedonjia. very interesting exception....

i never called your language bulgarian i said THE BOOK CALLS IT!

isn't a little bit funny for the real makedonskis (as u claim) to live in aussieland and canada while a "Christian turk" like me to live in Macedonia? a geographical question: what is more distant from Macedonia, australia or the moon?

i am only interested in your comments and opinion not in your curses and name calling.....

[komitaji i already explained that if u fight against the bulgarians side to side with people that speak a bulgarian dialect (AS THE BOOK MENTIONS) u don't call their language bulgarian u give it a REGIONAL NAME! it's plain simple to understand.]
Panayote, I have the Melas letters, don't tell me what he wrote because I read Greek well enough to read OMILISE, MAKEDONIKA, O KOTTAS. Pavlos calls it so because this is what the DOPIA call it, its not that confusing unless you want it to be. And your explanation on why Melas calls it so is laughable at best, don't shame yourself with such silly suggestions, you seem a little smarter than that.

The majority of the Dopia did NOT side with "greece", and those that are recorded in modern Greek history as having "sided" with "greece" were with the Patriarch, a supposedly "christian" body that ended up serving the narrow aims of the expansionist greek "state". Your friend Brailsford told me who and why people "sided" with "greece".

The Macedonian church movement has been alive since the mid to late 19th century, brush up your history. Recognition is the not a synonym for existence, for, if that was the case, Hellenes were ghosts until 1821.

Panayote, you don't seem like a bad fellow, a little confused and brainwashed, but not a retard like many of your compatriots here, but please, if you want to continue with a healthy debate you will refer to my langauge and people as Macedonians and not makedonskis. If you can't agree to that then don't waste your time posting.

What you say at the end is silly, you can be in south Macedonia for another 100 years, if you are a prosfiga import you still only have 180 years on the land and Europe itself for crying out loud, my great-great-great grandchildren will still have more claim to Macedonia even if they live on the moon.

Za nea nie se borime, za nea nie umreme, Makedonija, 20 Juli