I don't care what or who you think the LOGOS is or means, we know its a "HE", its not a thought, a thought cannot be a "HE", its a "something of male nature", HE, not SHE, HE, the LOGOS WAS GOD.
I'm sorry did I answer for you? Sorry,
According to verse 1, is the Logos (HE), God?
Yes or No.
John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
Jason
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Oh boy...here we go again, it don't sink deep enough? or hate the truth?
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June 4 2008, 4:18 PM
Jason asked:
According to John 1:1, is the Logos, God?
Yes or No.
ete replies:
Yes, the Logos "WAS" God. John 1:1 and the Word was God
--------------
Jason cont:
I don't care what or who you think the LOGOS is or means, we know its a "HE", its not a thought, a thought cannot be a "HE", its a "something of male nature", HE, not SHE, HE, the LOGOS WAS GOD.
I'm sorry did I answer for you? Sorry,
ete replies:
If the Greek term "logos" is a male gender that is why a "HE", therefore all the term "Logos" which appears more that 300 times in the NT must bear the same meaning, a male [he] entity, and also God ... since your personal presumptive opinion expressed the "Logos" does not in any ways refers to the standard meaning, i.e..plan, logic, reason, purpose, thoughts, etc.., of which the writer himself [John] applied and appears more than 300 times in the NT correct?
You also said, the logos: its a "something of male nature"....
If God's "logos" is a MALE Nature, what Nature of the logos has a MALE gender before becoming flesh?
Bible verses please and not opinions.
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Good, the Logos was (always was) God, now, what did God do?
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June 5 2008, 3:42 AM
Such a shamefull act. As you know ETE, you did not quote the entire post that you took this from nor the stream of the conversation.
[ETE]
Jason asked:
According to John 1:1, is the Logos, God?
Yes or No.
ete replies:
Yes, the Logos "WAS" God.
John 1:1 and the Word was God
I would assume that Ver and Theo also agree, because if they can read, John 1:1 clearly states that the Logos is God.
Now I doubt you looked up the greek tense of the word was in this verse, but I will inform you now, it means "always was". There was never a time in the past throughout eternity that the Logos was not God.
So I ask the second part, according to the following verse, what did God do?
John 1:14 "The Word (WHO IS GOD) became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
What did God, who is the Word, what did he do?
Jason
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"always was" God in the eternal past? "eternity" means has past..golly.
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June 5 2008, 4:44 PM
I never heard such a thing as "eternity", but in the past, "for eternity into the past",..hehe. Eternity has no boundaries, it is past present and future and forever...that is why eternity...if some point it stop in its "being" then it is no longer eternity, but status "was" past and replaced by present status.
However, the imperfect tense "en" generally applies to actions, "The imperfect tense generally represents continual or repeated action." and not what you think as "a continual and repeated statement of fact" based on John 1:1c.
If the logos was God, what actions is continually repeated? and your time frame was, "eternity into the past"? What happen to the eternity into the future [though absurd] if that is possible?
And when THE LOGOS BECAME MAN, where is the Logos? that WAS God?
You make yourself more and more complicated.
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Extending into the past or into the future of human time
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June 5 2008, 11:10 PM
Eternity extends both into the past of human time, going backwards, and extends into the future, going forwards.
Continual and repeating forever. Humans cannot fully grasp eternity, but we can understand the idea of something going backwards, forever, or forwards forever.
Jason
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How in the world would you define "eternity" using past, present, and future whereas "ETERNITY" is OUTSIDE the perimeter of time and space?
The subject "Logos" broke your invented term "eternity" [in the past], and re-created a timeline in this case the "logos became flesh" a transformation from one status to another, which you consider "eternal" cause for you, the Logos is a noun God based on your personal bible but not God's scriptures.
You make yourself more and more complicated...Jason, soooo complicated.
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[TB]
I would have, if John had done so. But John didn't. Ever Wonder why!
John knew there was a time between verse 1 and verse 14. That is why he filled that "time" with other information.
Why should I "jump" (as some do) from one verse to another to build a doctrine, when the author himself did not do so?
[Jason]
What a stupid statement, no one is jumping and ignoring the verses in between. All verses in the Bible agree with one another, there is no conflict or error. It is INC members who are hiding behind rocks cowering in fear of verse 14 and 18.
---------------------------
[TB]
Look at how John himself presents the "becoming" of God's logos, to being personified in his son.
Verse 1 tells us something about "Logos" - it was someplace at some time identified only as a "beginning;" which in other writings of John is identified as "the beginning of the gospel."[John 8:25; 16:4] And it was "face to face with God." and in some fashion or other, it "was God."
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
[Jason]
False, the beginning means the beginning of creation and all things. Because verse three states that the Logos created all things. Thus, the continuing subject is the creation of all things.
---------------------------
[TB]
Verse 2 tells us "the same" (Note: NOT "he" - because "it" is not a person) was in some beginning, as yet not identified, and it was "face to face" with God
2 "The same was in the beginning with God."
[Jason]
The same is referring to God / Logos. The same person being talked about in verse 1 = Logos who is God. But note that a singular God cannot be with himself as a single person. Verse two proves that God is plural. The Logos who is God, was with God, the Father.
No modern translation uses "it", rather the common and proper translation is HE.
John 1:2 (New International Version)
2He was with God in the beginning.
John 1:2 (New American Standard Bible)
2He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:2 (Amplified Bible)
2He was present originally with God.
John 1:2 (New Living Translation)
2 He existed in the beginning with God.
John 1:2 (New King James Version)
2 He was in the beginning with God.
ETC ETC ETC
"HE"
---------------------------
[TB]
Verse 3 tells us that by "it" all things became, that have become, and not one thing became without it.
3 "All things were made by it; and without it was not any thing made that was made."
[Jason]
Again, false translation, it is HIM, not it.
John 1:3 (New King James Version)
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
John 1:3 (New International Version)
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:3 (English Standard Version)
3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
ETC ETC ETC
And who made all things, who created TB, yes, that would be God. It was only GOD who created all things.
Gen 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.
So we know that not only is the Logos GOD, but that it was the person of the LOGOS who created ALL THINGS. ALL THINGS!
---------------------------
[TB]
Verses 4&5 (Notice: No personification yet - IT has not become flesh at this point) tell us there was a time involved for evaluation and comprehension of the light. And the light was "IT" not "him."
John 1:4 "In it was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended IT not."
[Jason]
There already is personification in verse 1. The Logos is a person already in verse 1 and furthered in verse 2 and 3 and all of chapter 1.
Again, you are intentionally deceiving yourself. Valid and non-cult translations state HIM. Also notice how many translations capitalize "Light".
John 1:4 (New International Version)
4In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
John 1:4 (New American Standard Bible)
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
John 1:4 (Amplified Bible)
4In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men.
John 1:4 (American Standard Version)
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
There is not one translation that translates "it". Sorry.
----------------
[TB]
Verses 6&7 tell us God sent a man to bear witness, to cause men to believe. This also takes time. John 1:6 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe."
[Jason]
This would be John the baptist, who was to proceed the coming of the Messiah. Nothing new there.
----------------
[TB]
Verses 8 thru 13 testify to a great expanse of time during which testimony was given to his own, evaluated by his own, and rejected by his own.
{{{removed pointless irregardless blabbering}}}
Verse 14 tells us of the ultimate result of all that effort, that was "rejected" by "his own;"and reflects a time that his glory was noted, and THAT was not until he was ascended to God's right hand.
John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
[Jason]
This is the second part of my question which you have not answer as of yet.
The Logos is God, who created all things, and according to verse 14, God became flesh and dwelt among us.
Do you agree with this statement?
------------------------------
[TB]
Verse 14 also tells us that the glory they beheld, was NOT the glory of God, but was the glory of the "BEGOTTEN OF GOD." It is a different glory, though trinitarians try to "jump" to verses about glory, and weld them together, as though they spoke of the same thing. They do not.
[Jason]
Not relevant. But it is the same glory, the full glory of God is equal with Jesus. They shared the same glory.
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
But back to my question, did God become flesh, yes or no?
If you agree that the Logos is God in verse 1
Do you agree that God became flesh in verse 14?
And dwelt among us?
Search your soul brother. You know what I quote out of the Bible is irrefuteble. Why not accept it?
Just because some wacky Filipino cult says otherwise? Don't be a fool man!
If you do not accept the claims of Jesus Christ and who Jesus Christ truly is (John 1:1,14)
You Are Not Saved
Jason
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So, what happened to the Logos after "he" became flesh?
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June 8 2008, 11:15 PM
TB is lost so you are the INC's only hope here ETE.
So ETE,
Can we agree that the Logos is God (verse 1)
Can we agree that the Logos, who is God, created all things (verse 3)
Can we agree that the Logos, who is God, became and was manifested in the flesh (verse 14, 1 Tim 3:16)
So then what we need to determine then is, when God became flesh, did he like cut off his arm, and then his arm stopped being God because it was detached from the bigger part? I mean to say, is it that not all of God became flesh, some of God, not all, came down out of heaven and became flesh, a man, a HE, not an it?
Or can some part of God stop being God, even if He chooses to become flesh. Isn't God eternal?
Are there any verses that talk about what happened to the God nature of the Logos, when it became flesh? Did it stop, was it willingly given up and put on hold, to be returned later?
According to John 1:2, "He was WITH GOD". If the Logos is God, how can be be "with God" if God is only one and the same person?
Here, throw me a bone, just consider, what if, God is actually plural ok, and one of the persons of God comes down from heaven, from God and becomes a man. Now when this person of God came down from heaven and became flesh as a man (not a woman, cat or dog) he willingly chose to relinquish his full power and nature as God, something he could have grasped at any time he wanted, but instead, he willingly chose to become a servant, to serve willingly one of the other persons of God for the salvation of all mankind.
What if that is true and correct? Wouldn't that mean that God, came down from heaven, to die for you Himself? Don't you think that would be pretty amazing and the greatest example of love, ever?
Jason
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the flesh [Jesus] did not inform his Disciples that He is God that became flesh.
Because of that, the disciples made a grave errors in the doctrines of Christianity and declared, They have NOT SEEN GOD and NO MAN can see God.
who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. [1 Timothy 6:16]
"No man hath seen God at any time..." [John 1:18]
But in reality, the trinitarians says, GOD BECAME MAN, dwelt with man, walked with man...which the Apostles flatly denied, by claiming THEY HAVE NOT SEEN GOD and NO MAN CAN SEE GOD...
who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. [1 Timothy 6:16]
"No man hath seen God at any time..." [John 1:18]
So, who's telling truth? TRINITARIANS advocates or the APOSTLES?
It's you own choice, the Trinitarian people put their chance for salvation on the line.
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who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. [1 Timothy 6:16]
"No man hath seen God at any time..." [John 1:18]
and will remain until the heavens are no more that NO MAN here on earth can see God..why? what is the reason? Man will die if he see God...
Exodus 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."
Now why did John declare the begotten Son, though a MAN had seen God?
Does it really mean Jesus had seen God in his being? If he he does, then Jesus will surely die since he is also one of us in Nature, a Man...
John 8:40 "But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth..."
So how could it be possible for Jesus to see God, without him looking at God's being or the entity itself?
John explained what he wrote...
3John 1:11 "...He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God.
Therefore, one of the requirement for someone to claim or rendered to him the terms: He has seen God, such person were NOT stained with evil, meaning that MAN did not sin or commit any evil.
Did Jesus meet that requirements? Did he commit sin or evil?
1 Peter 2:22 He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips.
Therefore, Jesus is well qualified to the term: Man [God begotten Son] has seen God because He is sinless, but for those who committed evil and sin, they have not seen God...
3 John 1:11 "...but he who does evil has not seen God.
In conclusion: Jesus is the only one who complied to God's requirements of being Holy at all times.
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...If God became flesh, and dwelt with Man, then Man had seen God.
But the scriptures says, it is IMPOSSIBLE to happen..why? Because everyone who will see God will die...
Exodus 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."
and Apostle Paul sealed that Notions of God...
1 Timothy 6:16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
So what is the possibility of "GOD BECAME MAN" and men live?
But they all live is it not? from his parents, one who raised Jesus and from the disciples and multitude who witnessed him even his ascension to heaven, without dying...
therefore GOD DID NOT BECOME MAN after all, you thought he did...or else, it will contradict the scriptures.
Give it up Jason, enough of your foolishness.
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if you can tell me, why did John and Paul lied by proclaiming NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD?
Whereas you said GOD BECAME MAN and live with Men and had seen by multitude of men, remember the 5000 whom Jesus feed? That's lots and lots of men Jason.
Why did they do that for? Hard to answer is it not?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time;..."
1 Timothy 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom [be] honor and everlasting power. Amen.
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John 12:44-45
44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.
John 14:6-7
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
Jason
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John 12:44-45
44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.
John 14:6-7
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
Therefore, looking at Jesus is looking at the one who sent Jesus, the God that cannot be seen by the naked eye and once seen, man will die.
Now what can we see in Jesus that will tell us that we have seen God, the one who sent of Jesus? Let John explain what he wrote...
10 Do you not believe, Philip, that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I have spoken to you," Jesus said to his disciples, "do not come from me. The Father, who remains in me, does his own work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. If not, believe because of the things I do.
What is the visible things that can be seen from God? God's works which Jesus was doing, which proves God is with him, and God the father is the one running the show with all the miracles and wonder which God performed through Jesus.
Acts 2:22 "Listen to these words, fellow Israelites! Jesus of Nazareth was a man whose divine authority was clearly proven to you by all the miracles and wonders which God performed through him. You yourselves know this, for it happened here among you.
After all God did not become man and called Jesus, instead God used the MAN Jesus to wrought his wonders and miracles in the midst of the people, very easy to comprehend Jason.
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Evasive denials, excuses and silly arguments wont sway an ant
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June 14 2008, 1:00 AM
Every can see that a classic cult member cannot accept the truth, even when its plainly told to him in a 5th grade reading level. The verse clearly states that when one saw Jesus Christ, they saw God the Father.
"HAVE SEEN HIM".
How did they see God the Father? Because Jesus Christ is one with the Father, God. By God becoming flesh, people were able to see, touch, hear and dwell with God. This is exactly what John explains in detail. This is how Jesus made God "KNOWN" to all those who came in contact with him.
Now this is so clear, so plain, so simple, anyone can understand it. It is only someone with a preconceived false notion indoctrinated into them by brain washing their mind from accepting the truth, that someone is a blind fool.
Jason
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I definitely agreed with Jason this time! Finally, Jason's eyes has opened!
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June 15 2008, 11:07 PM
But the truth remains what John said that "Nobody has seen God at ANYTIME" because if you do you will surely die!
Like what Jason said, anyone who see, touch, hear Jesus, is the same like seeing God, because God is with Jesus, God abides with Jesus, God lives in Jesus and God dwells in Jesus.
So who did John touch and see, when in fact He said that "nobody has seen God at anytime" The answer is simple, He was the man Jesus and by him we were able to see and understand more about God by his commands and teachings that came directly from God.
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Until you learn how to read a full verse, and not have your brain shutdown half way through, you are of no use to anyone or anything, useless on all accounts.
Jason
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very pleasant of course that it came from your heart, meaning it is you, the real Jason.
My question again, did you get you homework yet?
Did you have a list of verses that says "God the Son" ?
It's been a while that I ask you, considering that you are an ardent admirer of the belief on Trintiy which is composed of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Now tell me where in the Bible that the apostle who you supposedly think are all trinitarians... mentioned in any of their epistles, letters and writings that there is indeed a "God the Son" which is part of the Trintiy!
Jason, I'm not looking for the word "Trintiy" for there is none of that term, it's your consolation in my test, I'm just looking for the biblical proof that the apostles indeed believed and mentioned "God the son" If indeed they are trinitarians is just so IMPOSSIBLE for them to miss that very important aspect of the trinity.
Did they fail you Jason?
Are you a more accomplished trinitarian than the apostles?
As a Trintarian, did the apostles failed in their teachings about Jesus being "God the Son" if yes how come they are trinitarians?
If not then show me the verse Jason, save your curses and ill mannered insults on me during judgement day!
Just show me the verse and have a decency to decline if you can't, instead of muddling the question by hurling insults as if it would do you good, why can't you just pretend to be not Jason for awhile and humble yourself!
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I have allready proven that God became flesh and when everyone saw Jesus Christ, they saw God.
John 12:44-45
44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.
John 14:6-7
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
This verse is referring to seeing God in his Spirit form.
Case closed.
Jason
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a SPIRIT has a FORM?.....That 's something to reckon with Jason.
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July 3 2008, 5:30 AM
Jason wrote:
I have allready proven that God became flesh and when everyone saw Jesus Christ, they saw God.
John 12:44-45
44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.
John 14:6-7
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
This verse is referring to seeing God in his Spirit form.
ETE REPLIES:
Can a Man see God spirit form? a SPIRIT has a form? You are getting worst Jason.
Is seems that "INVISIBLE" has a form now...hmnnn, new thesis?
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1# the shape, outline, or configuration of anything; structure as apart from color, material, etc.
2# anything used to give shape to something else; mold; specif., a temporary structure of boards or metal into which concrete is poured to set
3# the particular mode of existence <-------CHECK THIS ALSO PLEASE
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form doesnt only mean shape haay( i would understand if its a really a deep word but FORM wow no wonder you did not understand the bible)now remember to take your meds ok :)heh heh
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please kill your self and keep away from debates or discussions your so stupid and you insist on your stupidity.a simple word like form and you dont understand it already what makes you think youll understand the bible or even gives you the right to discuss it if one word alone you dont understand
form
1# the shape, outline, or configuration of anything; structure as apart from color, material, etc.
2# anything used to give shape to something else; mold; specif., a temporary structure of boards or metal into which concrete is poured to set
3# the particular mode of existence <-------CHECK THIS ALSO PLEASE
