I posted a recounting of an incident that happened to me a few years back on another BB and took a lot of flack. I repost here all of my posts on the subject (you can read other peoples' posts at Denali's board as I am hesitant to bulk copy someone else's writings) and await your wrath. I dont think the later posts are flaming as one of the guys in particular doesnt seem to have a clue how the real world works.
See what you think....
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off lead
Posted on Monday, 23 November 1998, at 4:12 p.m.
I only allow my 2 off lead when there is no real chance of another dog around. They LOVE to run and burn off energy so we let them run (supervised) in our woods. They are excellent (well, very good) on recalls unless there is a dangerous squirrel to be chased up a tree. I had my 1st 2 Akitas when i lived in TX and they were only off lead in a fenced school yard where we took them to run them. you are right about liability.
But, I would NEVER allow my dog to be at a disadvantage in a fight. We have a chow in the neighborhood (with an idiot owner) that has a rep for suprise attacking from behind. I didnt walk my dogs that way until they had their full growth and sure enuff, the chow comes up friendly (he runs loose) and I will not force my dog to present his rear by walking off. We stayed there until the chow backed off (smart enough to see a 50# advantage). The owner was hollering ''oh, he wont bother you, just ignore him'. I responded ' your dog has a rep of attacking from behind and I want to see what he'll do with the front of an Akita facing him'. Weeks later with no chow owner in sight and my male on a 30 lead, said chow ran to us again posturing, so i waited and then gave my Akita enuff lead that he could deliver a message. Chow stuck his tail between his legs and doesnt come out when we pass.
Oh yeah. Whenever I see a dog in my yard, my male and I go for a 'walk'. Most dogs learn quickly about whose territory it is. Now the neighborhood dogs dont come to my house. A + is you have many flowerbeds.
I will not force my Akita to back down from loose-running dogs. I wouldnt ask my son to swallow his pride and back down from a challenge from a bully and I wont ask my best buddy to do it either.
Posted on Monday, 23 November 1998, at 10:45 p.m., in response to Re: off lead, posted by xxxxx on Monday, 23 November 1998, at 4:48 p.m.
Well, i figured I'd catch some grief over this post. So I guess I'll answer up to your questions....
>I really think it's too bad that you'd let your Akita enough lead to get in the face of this loose Chow.
Would you have us run or timidly never walk down that street?
> How would you have felt if your Akita evicerated this dog?
The chow has a history of sending neighborhood dogs to the vet. Remember it is allowed to run loose. I would've felt bad for the dog, but satisfaction directed toward the owner of the chow. His fault his dog is not properly trained and restrained. Note that it only took one incident for the chow to learn how to behave (at least to my dog). That is to say, it worked and I was right. It takes several minutes for a dog to kill another (other than extreme size differences). This incident was over in about 2-3 seconds.
> It's not the Chow's fault that he has an idiot for an owner.
Amen
> And did you ever stop to think of the damage this Chow could do to your dog with a lucky bite?
Yes. Its part of life. Same as I place myself in harm's way everyday (I am a police officer). Neither my dogs nor myself care to cower in the face of bullies. I want a buddy I can count on. Not a chihuahua.
> Why would you place your dog in this kind of situation? Don't get me wrong, I completely understand about loose dogs!, I myself own a very dog agressive 130 pd. male and have run into the exact same situations. But I can't control other people's dogs so I choose not to walk him in areas where loose dogs are common place, it's too risky.
> Your choice. Personally, I dont let others dictate my life when I am in the right. Why should I let those in the wrong run my life? But I make no value judgement on you or whatever you decide you must do.
> I personally don't want to see my male rip another apart or visa versa.
Nor do I. Thats why my dog's 'time-on-target' was extremely limited. Limited to just enough time to train the chow. Akita jumps on chows neck. Akita pulled off. Chow runs for home. Lesson learned. I deplore dog fighting. I love dogs, including the chow (it is sweet when there isnt another dog around). Have you ever spanked a child?
> Maybe you can try to talk to the owner of this dog, or call the dog officer?
Well now we all know that leash laws are not enforced unless it is a pretty extreme case. For that matter I could cite the owner myself ($500 a DAY fine for a dog and he has 3 dogs, all at large). This is the real world, I live in a rural neighborhood and about 4 families out of 40 fence their dogs. And about 2 of the 4 let their dogs run at large at some time during the week. Also, this guy has spoken with deputies several times before I moved here and the neighbors say it did no good. No one is interested in a dog that only attacks other dogs. It is considered a civil matter (remember that legally, dogs are just property). And the poor animal control officer barely has time to attack the real problem animals.
> I get the feeling that you enjoy proving to others what a big macho dog you have. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Not wrong,kinda. I love my 'big macho dogs'. They are the absolute joy of the neighborhood and ever1 else they have ever met. They are a couple of the most nonagressive Akitas I have ever seen. But yes, I was proud he stood his ground and ACTED LIKE AN AKITA. His samurai spirit is true. I imagine most parents can recall a time when they were proud of their child in the same way(not backing down and standing up for what's right). 'Proving' they (i love the female just as much) are big and macho? NO, I have to correct you there. I've never met a person yet that didnt automatically give a big dog respect. I know I do.
We dont live in a passive world and must all be responsible citizens. Part of that is correcting the wrongs we come across. I see wrong and I try to make it right. My opinion, anyway.
Posted on Wednesday, 25 November 1998, at 11:02 a.m., in response to Re: off lead, posted by xxxxxxxx on Wednesday, 25 November 1998, at 8:53 a.m.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. Some random thoughts stirred up by your post:
I am, technically a deputy sheriff in a southern county (easier to type 'cop').
We had a dog (usually just 1 at a time), a mutt or a bird dog almost all of my childhood.
I really like most all dogs and dont want any of them hurt. But like people, sometimes things must be done for the good of everyone else (1 person's rights end where another's begins).
Not long ago I went to a call where a Catahoula (large hunting dog, can climb/jump/dig with any breed and is Born2Roam) had chewed on a 5 yr old girl. 10's of stitches to her arm and back of neck. Dog was the sweetest thing ever. She ran(next door) and he thought 'there goes prey'. Only the owner thought a 3' fence would hold him. IDIOT. The dogs head was level with the fence (he wasnt full grown)! Well, he hadnt had a rabies shot. (this was a Friday) Owner sez, 'he's got an appointment to get it monday'. Yeah, right, I'm really THAT stupid. So I call up Animal Control to come and get the dog for quarantine and notice 2 other dogs chained and/or running around the property. He sez they're his and I ask if they are vacinnated. He sez 'oh yeah'. I say let me see the certificates. He gets them (sure enought they were vaccinated), and then starts this white-trash-lawyer routine that I got no cause to ask about them dogs cause they aint the one that dun nothin. All this while drinking a beer. I'm sure we'll be back to that trailer again. I hope its not dog-related.
Sometimes I wish owning a dog was something a person had to qualify for. Same with kids.
Posted on Friday, 27 November 1998, at 1:05 p.m.
Flack taken. No ill will. I hate it when the thread plasters itself against the right of the screen, so I am continuing up here. Hope no one minds.
Trying to answer (from memory) points you all have raised...
Citing a neighbor is not an option. My dept wants us to be civilians unless we are on duty. I should call up like anyone else and complain. (This is a good rule that helps me in the long run with neighborly relations). But I could still do it if I cared to. Which brings us to point 2. I spend enough time sitting in a courtroom waiting for a judge to throw out violations because it is out of the ordinary. Real World: thrown out of court. violation dismissed, maybe with a scolding. Owner continues as he always has.
Talk to owner?:(as a civilian) its been done. He's an idiot dog owner. I dont threaten people. Ever. If I have to, I tell people the way it's gonna be, but only if I am ready to take that action immediately. Never threaten.
Some of you have pointed out ''THE LAW'' and my duty to uphold such. I wish it were that easy. It doesnt work 100% as advertised. Saying it 'ought to do this or that' sounds good, but things just dont work the way they were designed. Dont get me wrong, i love this country and legal system, it is the best in the world, but it isnt perfect. My job is to protect the innocent and hold the lid on. Sometimes I must use physical force on violators.
-----------Please explain how what the chow got is ANY different than my physically subdueing an attacker?---------- (other than the chow learned a lesson)
Remember folks, my solution was quick and worked OUTSTANDLY well. For those of you with meeker/smaller dogs, might I suggest a BB to the butt works wonders.
How many of you have experienced your Akitas defining their pack structure? Sometimes violent, no? Same thing in a neighborhood. Chow now understands his place and leaves my dogs alone.
Put the Akita 'thru it'??? PLA-ESE. He's probably still hoping I'll let him jump another dog. Sorry, I dont buy this line of discussion.
Oh yes, the chow owner has previously been reported. See how much good that did. Sad fact is, until the dog does something to a human (and he wont as he's a sweetie with people), it is a civil matter and not a police matter. This is the way the criminal courts work. Not my choice. Just the way it is.
Law enforcement priorities? To my personal knowledge, this chow would rank WAY down the list of problems in our county. Even WAY down the animal problem list.
Using my status to get results? Not ethical. And as I stated, the single animal control officer we have is overworked and handling much greater problems than this.
On talking to owner before allowing Akita to attack: - had good info from numerous other neighbors about chow's history -had previous conversations with chow owner on neighborly things (he's an A**hol*). -previously witnessed and broken up chow attack on another dog (and have done same twice since Akita incident) --previously witnessed chow posture and manuever to rear of my dog, obviously planning attack (owner sat by and did nothing) --witnessed chow posturing and manuevering again (REMEMBER WHO IS COMING >100 YDS TO ATTACK AN AKITA) to attack -------I submit this is enough justification.
And the bottom line is, I really dont care what anyone else thinks. It is right and under the same circumstances, I would do the same thing again.
Posted on Friday, 27 November 1998, at 8:52 p.m., in response to Re: Off-Lead, part 2, posted by xxxxx on Friday, 27 November 1998, at 8:10 p.m.
Maybe my experiences are out of the ordinary, but I've never seen an Akita vs other breed fight that lasted more than about 5 seconds. Akitas go up and land on the other dog to start the fight. They grab a mouthful of neck and it is over. Owner grabs Akita, forces Akita to let go and other animal runs off. My two (male and female) PLAY harder and have more injuries as a result of play. And they are best buddies.
I guess life would be safer if we all cowered in our bedrooms, but I choose not to ''live'' like that.
''... I would continually make those phone calls and sit in the courtroom as many hours weeks years it will take to get something done before it comes to anyone dog or human gets hurt. '' I'll send you the chow's phone # if you want it. I've got better things to do.