but won't let me join their discussion group?.....Perhaps I'll just have to start my own.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

FIRO List Members:

Please fax and forward this press release to your local and national news
networks.

And be sure to read the new article that was just put up on the website.
It's referenced below.

Thank you,

Tom Stalcup
Chair, FIRO


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
May 18, 2001
Flight 800 Independent Researchers Organization (FIRO)

Contact: Tom Stalcup, 508-725-8807, 33 Ridgeview Dr., Falmouth, MA, 02540,
stalcupt@hotmail.com

Missing FBI Documents in McVeigh and Flight 800 Investigations

Timothy McVeigh's bombing was the worst act of domestic terrorism in U.S.
history.
TWA Flight 800 was one of the worst airline disasters in U.S. history.

In each case, the FBI unlawfully withheld documents for years afterwards.

Evidence withheld by the FBI during its Flight 800 Investigation:

WITNESSES: The FBI withheld from the National Transportation Safety Board
all witness documents--the same types of FBI documents (302's) that
materialized recently related to "Jon Doe No. 2" interviews--that included
descriptions of a streak of light colliding with an aircraft for more than
one year after the crash. While the media speculated about an external
cause, the FBI classified as "secret," witness accounts that confirmed
such speculation.

The FBI continues to list as "unable to locate," crucial eyewitness
documents, including witness sketches and graphics of a
surface-originating streak. Also, significant gaps remain in the existing
documents' numbering system, indicating that hundreds of other accounts
may remain unreleased.

FORENSICS: The FBI confiscated from the New York Suffolk County Medical
Examiner all foreign objects found imbedded in the crash victims' bodies
to be sent for analysis. But according to a sworn FBI affidavit sent to
Springfield, MA Federal District Court in response to a FOIA lawsuit filed
by FIRO, no test results on any of the items taken from 89 bodies could be
found after a "thorough search."

In the wake of the recent execution-delaying FBI document release, Senator
Charles Grassley has called for "a top-to-bottom review" of the FBI. FIRO
agrees and hopes that such a review will locate the missing documents and
reports in the TWA Flight 800 case.

FIRO is a group independently researching the 1996 crash of TWA Flight
800. Its membership includes engineering, aviation, and military
professionals.

Related Article: http://Flight800.org/foia.htm

John?

I'm just a dodgy Brit, but I do recognise that your agencies are liars and bullshitters.

How come it takes you so long?

No offense of course.

But if they lie about all this, how can you be sure that JFK was killed by 3 bullets from a patsy?

TJ

I really don't want to get started on JFK in this forum. It really isn't the place. Let me just say I did YEARS of research, and have NO DOUBT in my mind re: my conclusions.

The FBI was a different organization in 1963....certainly not perfect, but definitely more competent.


I think Ruby Ridge marked a sort of turning point.....You had Waco, Oklahoma City, Flight 800......and a host of other "botches".

I'm not too sure I would lay any of this off to any kind of conspiracy. Personally, I believe we have become too bloated, too self absorbed, and too stupid.

Steve Allen wrote a book entitled "Dumbth"....you should read it. It outlines the general deterioration of the American "thinking system".

Common sense has been replaced by nonsense....Up is down and down is up. Our institutions are filled with dim witted morons with University degrees on their office walls. Apparently, we are on the same road as ancient Rome..........I can only hope we can save ourselves........but I'm beginning to have my doubts........."Incompetence" is the buzzword. And then of course you have those with their own agendas......basically unchecked, slotted into our bloated and unmanageable institutions, many too large even for Congressional oversight

What we need is a complete overhaul.........I just hope we have the time and fortitude to make it happen.

I wouldn't argue with too much of that John, but the rot started with Hoover, and JFK is not a subject we should be discussing here!

I follow your Rome analogy, and this country follows the new Rome wherever it leads. It really is as simple as the cliche, 'Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

Your country seems to be in the hands of an elite few families or organisations. They have the money, and money is power - or it can buy power.

The presidency is open to anyone who has the money and guts to take it, and if it's a close one??????????

Doomed is what we are, and all the words on all the paper on the planet can't change what we have become. The constitution may have been a noble aim, but who believes that is means 'kall any more?

Try a simple FOIA on a harmless subject like an aircraft crash, there could be no possible reason to obstruct such a request - could there?

Let us live in the real world, slum and ghetto that it be, but let us not fool ourselves that the United States constitution means a rats ass any more.

So sorry, cynic mode OFF.......

"I'm not too sure I would lay any of this off to any kind of conspiracy. Personally, I believe we have become too bloated, too self absorbed, and too stupid."
________

No. Not the government, just the public.

"Incompetence" is ALWAYS the government's excuse when something much more sinister is in play. The government knows that the public will just nod its head "knowingly" and accept any "bureaucratic snafu" at its face, no questions asked. "'Nuff said." -- "The government isn't bad, it's just run badly." -- Really? How can anyone on the outside know for sure?

Pleading incompetence is tyranny's first defense. It masks the sinister in the mundane. And the people are too self-absorbed and too stupid to see through it.

NoFOB

Whether I agree with it ALL is another story.

Trevor: Don't get me started on J Edgar Hoover, whom I think was a very sick individual, or at LEAST quirky to the EXTREME. However the FBI as a whole in 1963 for example was a rather competent organization, regardless of Hoover's strangeness. Did he manipulate it?........ Oh yes,......there was no "organized crime"....but of course......there was a "communist" under every bed. He hated JFK and RFK. Attributing much of his disdain to THEIR sexual exploits.... (real or imagined)......while HE dressed in fishnets and rolled around in the hay with Tolson....nuff said.

As far as "sinister" goings on......I'm sure there are many..........However, in the "dumbth" frame of mind we are in.........even the task of "conspiring" to either cover-up, obstruct or otherwise act in a corrupt fashion.......must in itself be a monumental task for the current flock of dimwits whom we have empowered..........Not to say that some don't try.

However, during the course of my previous research, I uncovered instances where the government had "classified" for years.........evidence which would have vindicated itself!........The process starts as a document for example is classified.....the need at the time MAY be in fact justified. After which, having been screened thru the minds of some of our greatest civil servants........Newton's law begins to take effect, ie., (objects at rest, tend to stay at rest)........and believe me........at rest they do stay!

I truly do......without sounding too much like Jefferson........fear for our Republic........Trevor is right in many regards re: the Constitution......Perhaps Orwell was just a little early with his 1984.............I mean, the pigs are certainly eating with the people......and the old horse......is riding away in the van.......

Just a "Repost" of some of Admiral Moorer's comments on Bubba's impeachment.

"The path before you is clear: Honor your oath and defend the Constitution, or give in to a transient clamor for such pure democracy that will, if pursued to its conclusion, destroy our Constitution, and cause the failure of our Republic," he wrote. "What you are now called upon to do is in many ways a greater defense of our nation than any act of war which I and many others have been called upon to perform, and those that have given their lives in such great number to keep this republic will have died in vain if in this hour your courage does not continue to equal their own."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Bravo! Admiral........You have my deep respect.